Son's 9th birthday

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David4516

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My oldest turns 9 today. Got him his very own AR-15, gave it to him a day early and took him to the range. He fired 2 rounds before he said he wanted to go back to .22LR ha ha. I'm thinking he might need a limb saver recoil pad or something. Possibly a .22LR conversion kit.

It was a great range day overall, here are some pics
 

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Hmm. I wouldnt think 223 rem would be a problem at that age. Is he holding it properly? Do you reload? Maybe you could download a couple boxes for him and see if it's more comfortable.
 
David4516

Happy Birthday to your son! My kids were content with their .22s at that age and never really had an interest in shooting my AR.
 
Yeah he's got pretty good technique, and I do reload, although these were not "downloaded" rounds (55gr at about 2,800FPS from 16 inch barrel).

I think it's a couple of factors. First just the noise and blast of a centerfire vs a rimfire, I don't think he cares for that. Secondly, he's pretty small, weighs about 50 pounds, so even with the light recoil of the .223 it might still feel like quite a bit to a small kid. Maybe I should have waited another year to give this to him...
 
Hi...
Interesting that the noise and recoil of a .223 bothered a 9 year old.
I started my son with handguns when he was 8 years old...started with rimfires and worked up through full power .357Magnum rounds that summer in a S&W 686 Silhouette Model revolver.
My son was shooting big bore handguns at 9 years old and I could barely keep him supplied with cartridges.
He was a pretty good sized kid at the time and is now(at 25 years old) about 6'4" and about 250lbs.
Recoil still doesn't bother him.

Never bothered my oldest daughter when she started shooting back in the early '80s at about 9 or 10 years old, either.
 
I would think the blast was more of a deterrent than was the actual recoil. It's hard to get ear plugs to fit in a kid, but do everything possible to get plugs in good plus have him wear good muffs. I would wait a good while before trying again though, no need to ruin him being gun shy from the beginning.
 
His hearing is way better than you and probably more sensitive, so he'll react to it. Let him shoot what's comfortable for him instead of what Dad likes. He may just not want to shoot anything if made to shoot an uncomfortable round. 22's are just as cool as 223 if you can do it well.
 
I've been introducing a couple of boys a little bit older to 6.5 Grendel, which is a little closer to 7.62x39 than 5.56, but still an AR15 type cartridge. It's also their first centerfire rifle cartridge. One of them is 11 and small for his age too.

I started them with loads made up with Hodgdon Trail Boss. The rifle is bolt-action so it doesn't have to cycle. They shot a couple of range sessions, maybe 20 or 30 rounds each and then I introduced cartridges with a starting load of H335. Back-to-back, they liked Trail Boss better. One of the boys had really psyched himself out about recoil, but his marksmanship is good, he wants to shoot longer range and we have a goal to get ready for deer season so I got him off the Trail Boss. We went out one afternoon and he was shooting full-power loads and knocking out 12 oz soda cans at 200 yards. He came back and is totally over his fear of recoil and telling his little brother it's no big deal (even though his brother was never worried about it the way he was).

Trail Boss was very helpful for us. It allowed us to get out of the .22LR which I sold (I hate .22LR, especially cheap rimfire guns) and still shoot with similarly low recoil, but more capability as we became ready.

The other boy's marksmanship is not as excellent yet, and he seems less interested in shooting. Kids might tend to get more excited about something they find themselves good at. But then they also tend to get good at what they're interested in. The key thing is keeping their interest until their skills catch up. I try to do this by giving them the right equipment to succeed (like having the right length of pull and good sights or optics), but also not being critical or condescending. I encourage them as much as I can, but they're aware of their own performance level even if I don't grade or score them, especially when there's another kid to compare themselves to. Competition can be both an encouragement and discouragement depending on a kid's results and how they respond to them. Sometimes they need to be redirected from competition or their performance and just find enjoyment. An easy way to do that is to shorten distances to make most of the shots successful.

Having fun targets is important. Shooting paper isn't fun unless you're slaying four other bench rest shooters. Blowing up ice blocks, soda cans, 2 liters, pinging steel poppers, or shooting tannerite is fun. We save all our drink containers (like milk jugs and stuff) and refill them with water. If they're clear, a couple drops food dye makes them colorful too. So a .22LR blows up a 12 oz soda can pretty decent, but what will a 5.56 do to it? The .22LR pokes a hole in the milk jug and it kind of spurts out, but what will a 5.56 do to it? I mean, why should I shoot a 5.56 if there's nothing more fun about it?

So this less interested boy -- I was in the city with him the other day for a Dr. appointment and we stopped at the range on the way home. We live rural so our range is just out in the country, but here in the city we could rent guns. I rented a few and handed him a VP9. I thought it was pretty tame, but he shot it once and handed it back to me with the slide locked back. I could tell he wasn't into it. I tried a couple of automatics I might have bought, and then I got an MPX with a mini red dot sight. I put 30 rounds in the magazine and handed it to him. Even though we could only shoot paper targets, he had a blast. He's ready for an MPX. This wasn't his first semi-automatic either. His first rifle was a semi-auto .22LR with detachable magazines too, and he shot it with irons, red dot and scope at different times. But the combination of 9mm tameness in that heavier gun (it was the 8" version), the red dot, and the higher capacity semi-auto action and the short LOP maximized what was fun for him. It was good for me to see that too because I was going to buy him an AR pistol chambered in Grendel and now I know he's not ready for that.

Takeaways:
  • If he needs to shoot longer range and power because of his interest or goals, start on Trail Boss or light loads before stepping up to the power factor needed for long range or hunting.
  • If it's just for fun and distance or power don't matter, give him a reason why he should shoot 5.56 instead of .22LR. Make the targets fun and reactive to the additional energy.
  • If you can't shoot fun targets, consider a 9mm AR instead of 5.56.
 
I've been introducing a couple of boys a little bit older to 6.5 Grendel, which is a little closer to 7.62x39 than 5.56, but still an AR15 type cartridge. It's also their first centerfire rifle cartridge. One of them is 11 and small for his age too.

I started them with loads made up with Hodgdon Trail Boss. The rifle is bolt-action so it doesn't have to cycle. They shot a couple of range sessions, maybe 20 or 30 rounds each and then I introduced cartridges with a starting load of H335. Back-to-back, they liked Trail Boss better. One of the boys had really psyched himself out about recoil, but his marksmanship is good, he wants to shoot longer range and we have a goal to get ready for deer season so I got him off the Trail Boss. We went out one afternoon and he was shooting full-power loads and knocking out 12 oz soda cans at 200 yards. He came back and is totally over his fear of recoil and telling his little brother it's no big deal (even though his brother was never worried about it the way he was).

Trail Boss was very helpful for us. It allowed us to get out of the .22LR which I sold (I hate .22LR, especially cheap rimfire guns) and still shoot with similarly low recoil, but more capability as we became ready.

The other boy's marksmanship is not as excellent yet, and he seems less interested in shooting. Kids might tend to get more excited about something they find themselves good at. But then they also tend to get good at what they're interested in. The key thing is keeping their interest until their skills catch up. I try to do this by giving them the right equipment to succeed (like having the right length of pull and good sights or optics), but also not being critical or condescending. I encourage them as much as I can, but they're aware of their own performance level even if I don't grade or score them, especially when there's another kid to compare themselves to. Competition can be both an encouragement and discouragement depending on a kid's results and how they respond to them. Sometimes they need to be redirected from competition or their performance and just find enjoyment. An easy way to do that is to shorten distances to make most of the shots successful.

Having fun targets is important. Shooting paper isn't fun unless you're slaying four other bench rest shooters. Blowing up ice blocks, soda cans, 2 liters, pinging steel poppers, or shooting tannerite is fun. We save all our drink containers (like milk jugs and stuff) and refill them with water. If they're clear, a couple drops food dye makes them colorful too. So a .22LR blows up a 12 oz soda can pretty decent, but what will a 5.56 do to it? The .22LR pokes a hole in the milk jug and it kind of spurts out, but what will a 5.56 do to it? I mean, why should I shoot a 5.56 if there's nothing more fun about it?

So this less interested boy -- I was in the city with him the other day for a Dr. appointment and we stopped at the range on the way home. We live rural so our range is just out in the country, but here in the city we could rent guns. I rented a few and handed him a VP9. I thought it was pretty tame, but he shot it once and handed it back to me with the slide locked back. I could tell he wasn't into it. I tried a couple of automatics I might have bought, and then I got an MPX with a mini red dot sight. I put 30 rounds in the magazine and handed it to him. Even though we could only shoot paper targets, he had a blast. He's ready for an MPX. This wasn't his first semi-automatic either. His first rifle was a semi-auto .22LR with detachable magazines too, and he shot it with irons, red dot and scope at different times. But the combination of 9mm tameness in that heavier gun (it was the 8" version), the red dot, and the higher capacity semi-auto action and the short LOP maximized what was fun for him. It was good for me to see that too because I was going to buy him an AR pistol chambered in Grendel and now I know he's not ready for that.

Takeaways:
  • If he needs to shoot longer range and power because of his interest or goals, start on Trail Boss or light loads before stepping up to the power factor needed for long range or hunting.
  • If it's just for fun and distance or power don't matter, give him a reason why he should shoot 5.56 instead of .22LR. Make the targets fun and reactive to the additional energy.
  • If you can't shoot fun targets, consider a 9mm AR instead of 5.56.
I'm not sure I have ever seen anyone say that they hate .22 LR before. What is to hate?
 
Rimfire cartridges in general are filthy. Not all centerfire are clean, but I load centerfire cartridges that burn more than 10 times as much powder and produce 1/10th the filth of .22LR.
Besides the visible filth, rimfire cartridges spew toxic lead styphnate and are typically loaded with exposed-lead bullets that spray more vaporized lead into the air and coat the gun in lead residue making for a toxic cleanup.
And this is popular for kids? It's boneheaded is what is it. It simply comes from the idea that kids should only shoot something cheap, and that's all. It's for cheapskates. There's absolutely no other justification for it, other than it's cheap.

.22LR can be boring. Admittedly, this has more to do with what a person's imagination can come up with than the inherent limitations of the cartridge, but generally speaking, a motorcycle is a lot more exciting than a scooter.

Another big reason I hate .22LR can't be blamed on the cartridge itself, but on the proliferation of cheap crap guns made for it. Something like a nice CZ 457 is hard to hate, but that's hardly typical of kids' .22LR rifles. What is typical is blowbacks with crappy plastic triggers.
 
I have a 22LR my dad bought me when I was 14 years old. It was my only rifle until I was out of college, got my first job & had enough money to buy a center fire. I enjoyed the heck out of that first (& only) 22LR rifle and I still treasure it today (an old Mossberg Mod 46M(b)). My buddies also had 22's and we would go down to 7 Eleven, buy a couple of boxes of 22LR ammo & enjoy an afternoon shooting tin cans, rabbits or whatever. If my father had bought me a center fire rifle I could not have afforded to buy enough ammo to shoot it much at all. In fact one of my friends bought an old military Mauser carbine from one of those barrel-full-of-guns at Woolco (hey, I'm an old guy) & shooting it was a yearly event because a box of 8 mm Mauser cartridges was expensive. I must also add that it kicked like a mule on steroids. Sometimes when it comes to kids, having too much too soon can be more of a detriment than a blessing.
 
My first rifle was a Marlin model60 22lr, It served me well for many years and thousands of rounds.
Even with the crappy plastic trigger
223 makes a big boom.....I dont blame the kid, let em shoot what he wants!
oh and a Happy Birthday to him!
He has a nice dad!
 
I'm with David's son. I also would rather shoot 22 than 223.
Agreed. If I could only have one rifle for shooting enjoyment, it'd likely be a .22 LR. Not that I don't enjoy all the others, but I can definitely identify with a 9 year old, or any other age, who gets more enjoyment out of a rimfire at times.
 
Ok so your son wants to go back to .22 and you immediately want to put a recoil pad on the rifle? Why cause you think he needs to shoot .223? Had you had him shoot yours before getting him his own to see how he felt about it or just assumed he would like it?

What I am trying to say is let him shoot what he wants and don't push it so you don't push him out of something he enjoys. I felt pushed into baseball, loved it but end up playing football inspite. As parents we have to be careful as we may think we are doing right when we aren't.

So my advice is get him a AR in .22LR. He will feel more at home and you can buy him much more ammo. After all unless he's hunting with it, he's just making holes in paper. If he's hunting with it, he only has to make one shot. He can practice with small caliber and use the .223 to take game.
 
It's boneheaded is what is it. It simply comes from the idea that kids should only shoot something cheap, and that's all. It's for cheapskates. There's absolutely no other justification for it, other than it's cheap.

You have obviously never looked at the olympic shooting disciplines. A good juniors rifle can run a couple thousand, and ammo is about the price of match .308 (or more in some cases). For adults you can easily drop $5k-$7k on a rifle, and a $500-$1000 on ammo for a season. Not everyone shoots rimfire guns bought out of a case of cheap guns, or ammo that comes in a "valuepack."
 
I’m not surprised by this one bit. I took a 15 yo young man and his mom to the range. He was only so so with my AR but shooting lights out with my Marlin. I actually think that I’m lucky to be able to pass on two of my favorite shooters to someone who will appreciate them.
 
You have obviously never looked at the olympic shooting disciplines. A good juniors rifle can run a couple thousand, and ammo is about the price of match .308 (or more in some cases). For adults you can easily drop $5k-$7k on a rifle, and a $500-$1000 on ammo for a season. Not everyone shoots rimfire guns bought out of a case of cheap guns, or ammo that comes in a "valuepack."

Polishing a turd. It's very common in all kinds of competition. The only reason they do it is that it's all the rules allow.

I wasn't unaware of high-end .22 rimfire guns. Besides the Anschutz biathlon guns, there's even just the S&W 41 or the CZ 457 I mentioned. Those are certainly fine guns and there's no needs to spends thousands to get them, but they are the exception to .22LR guns and not the rule. Even so, they still have no appeal to me as they shoot a filthy toxic cartridge with mostly impractical effect. So the question remains, why would these guns appeal to olympic rules committees or to anyone else? What superior quality is inherent in them that is absent among the centerfires?
 
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[QUOTE="labnoti, post: 11098745, member: 250174] why would these guns appeal to olympic rules committees or to anyone else? What superior quality is inherent in them that is absent among the centerfires?[/QUOTE]

1) they have been around for a very long time so even countries that aren’t on the cutting edge of technology can compete.
2) they aren’t barrel burners, they don’t have a specific life span like some rifle cartridges.
3) when combined with the right shooter, they are just as effective as any other platform
4) beats a pointy stick
 
Personally, I love .22LR. I'd rather shoot it than just about anything else. On Wednesday, I spent about 4 hours at the range with a buddy of almost 40 years. .22LR is all we shot, and we had a ball.

As for the OP's kid, and with advice being worth exactly what you paid for it. . . . Don't worry about getting him to shoot .223. You could get him a conversion kit. You could also just set the AR off and wait for him to be ready to shoot it.

If you can get to a farm or a range that allows it, some kind of target that gives immediate feedback is great for kids. Adults might be satisfied with punching paper, but something reactive makes a big difference for kids. A few weeks ago, I went out on the farm with a friend and we shot oranges. They're bright, they're biodegradable, and they move if hit. (They were also on sale at Wal-Mart.) Metal targets that 'ping' when you hit them are nice too, in that kids know instantly if they've hit the target.
 
Thanks for feedback so far.

To be clear on a few points, I am NOT taking away his .22 and forcing him to shoot the .223 LOL

I had him try it, he fired a couple of rounds, and said he wanted to go back to his .22lr, which we did. I did not pressure him into the .223 or try to make him feel bad for not shooting it more, or anything like that.

As for the equpiment, I'm also well aware that using proper gear helps to set a new shooter up for success. He's been happily shooting his .22 for a couple of years now and is getting pretty good with it. It's a Savage "Rascal" rifle, I choose this rifle for him because the bolt actually works (unlike other youth .22s like the "cricket" where you have to pull back on a knob at the end of the bolt to cock the gun). It also has a better trigger than most .22lr youth guns, and the only plastic part I can find anywhere on this thing is the feed ramp. He has good ear protection. We shoot at a gun club that doesn't allow most "reactive" targets but they do have some steel targets he can shoot and they're more exciting than paper (but he does shoot paper as well). On occasion we'll blow up some balloons and he can try to pop them with the rifle, that's about as reactive as we can get.

I had talk with him about the .223 last night, asked if he wanted to try it again next time at the range and if there was anything we do could do that would make it more fun for him. I specifically asked if the noise bothered him more, or the recoil. He says it's the recoil. I asked if he'd like me to convert it to .22lr and he said no, he wanted to try a "squishy" (aka limb-saver recoil pad). I'm okay with that, a .22lr conversion kit is at least $150 but the recoil pad is like $35, so I ordered the recoil pad and it should arrive any day now.

He also wants to dye the gun a custom color to make it more personalized to him, so we went to wal-mart and picked up some "indigo" colored RIT dye. I think if he feels like the rifle is set up especially for him, he'll be more eager to shoot it.

If all else fails it can just go back into the safe for a couple more years and we can try again later. I don't want to force him into center fire if he's not ready.

labnoti, not to derail my own thread, but what are you shooting in your 6.5grendel for reloads? I have a grendel and it shoots great with factory ammo but I've been struggling to find a hand load that it likes.
 
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