Low-Smoke Substitute

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Jesse Heywood

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I have a 1892 Colt Navy that I want to shoot at an indoor range that does not allow black powder. Is there a low smoke substitute that I can safely use in this antique gun? I don't want to damage the gun or get thrown out of the range. Thanks.
 
I wouldn't trust any smokeless powder. The gun is to valuable. I am not familiar with any of the black powder substitutes. Am looking for a sub that doesn't smoke much. I have not had any problems with smoky loads using "smokeless" powders in newer guns, even some that I have had to let the air clear for a few seconds to take another shot.
 
I have a 1892 Colt Navy that I want to shoot at an indoor range that does not allow black powder. Is there a low smoke substitute that I can safely use in this antique gun? I don't want to damage the gun or get thrown out of the range. Thanks.
1892 a cartridge gun? Should be be a smokeless load.
 
The Hodgdon Reloading Data Center has loads listed for .38 Long Colt if that's the correct M1892 cartridge.
Trail Boss is a popular substitute powder.
5 powders are listed, velocities are provided but not pressures.
 
The Hodgdon Reloading Data Center has loads listed for .38 Long Colt if that's the correct M1892 cartridge.

Yes as a matter of fact it was the .38 Long Colt cartridge that failed to stop Filipino rebels that prompted the replacement of that revolver in one in .45 Colt which then prompted the search for a semi-automatic handgun and John Browning designed what became the Colt 1911 ;)

Arcticap is quite right, you should be using the Hodgdon manual and can use the smokeless powder that they recommend.

LD
 
I read somewhere about a powder that was called "semi-smokeless" that was meant for use in black powder firearms...it was manufactured back in the late 1800s or so..maybe early 1900s. Anyonw know what that stuff was? I actually wish they gave a black powder sub that gave the option to come in a non-smoking variety....like Black MZ or 777 but made no smoke when burnt. Dont get me wrong i love the smoke and boom, but it would come in handy for cases like this where you need a non smoking powder for use in an indoor range etc
 
Gun is an 1892 Colt DA 41, one of the early DA Colts that turns backward and has the sideplate on the right. Round is the .41 Colt, which I can make cases from .30-30 brass, and I have a source for bullets.

It is currently in the hands of dfarriswheel, having a headspace issue corrected. He advised me of the rarity of this gun, due to the combination of parts used. It has seen little use. And he recommended only to fire with blackpowder loads, due to the fragile action.

I have located a couple of outdoor ranges, both about an hour's drive. Problem is they only allow targets to be set at 25 yards, a distance beyond my sighting range. I had just as well take a target the size of a barn side and use a tape measure to find the group size.
 
Yes as a matter of fact it was the .38 Long Colt cartridge that failed to stop Filipino rebels that prompted the replacement of that revolver in one in .45 Colt which then prompted the search for a semi-automatic handgun and John Browning designed what became the Colt 1911 ;)

There was a Guns & Ammo article by Jack Lott called the 45 vs The Moros A Myth Exploded or something along those lines. And he stated that he had been guilty of repeating the mantra of the 45 Colt being superior to the 38 Colt and producing one shot stops 100% of the time. He stated on doing his own research he found that not only were their failures with the 38 but also the 45 and 30-40 Krag. He stated the closest thing to a for certain fight stopper was the 1897 Winchester 12ga pump loaded with buckshot.

He also stated that when the 38 Colt was first used it did provide good stopping power and told about one battle where 200 or so Moro's were killed at close quarters and most were killed with the 38 Colt. It wasn't until the fighting moved south to Mindanao that they started having problems with all rounds not providing the stops they wanted. I suspect the biggest problem was more likely poor shooting. I don't think they were given a lot of training with handguns. And I admit that making a perfect shot on someone running out of the bush at you with a curvy bladed Kris or Barong might have a tendency to unnerve you a bit.

If the gun is as valuable as he says it is I would just retire it and buy a gun thats safe to shoot at his indoor range. But some low power smokeless loads shouldn't hurt it.
 
Gun is an 1892 Colt DA 41, one of the early DA Colts that turns backward and has the sideplate on the right. Round is the .41 Colt, which I can make cases from .30-30 brass, and I have a source for bullets.

It is currently in the hands of dfarriswheel, having a headspace issue corrected. He advised me of the rarity of this gun, due to the combination of parts used. It has seen little use. And he recommended only to fire with blackpowder loads, due to the fragile action.

I have located a couple of outdoor ranges, both about an hour's drive. Problem is they only allow targets to be set at 25 yards, a distance beyond my sighting range. I had just as well take a target the size of a barn side and use a tape measure to find the group size.
Black powder is no slouch. I would personally work up some trail boss loads. I have a DA 41 and haven't shot it yet. I didn't know you could make cases from .30-30 brass.
 
Reading this page again it says to fireform 38 spl brass instead of using 30-30. http://harryo.sixshootercommunity.org/
I have made 44 Colt brass from 30-30 and from 5 in 1 blank, but haven't delved into the 41 Colt yet. Might have to contact Hodgdon about Trail Boss. I'm one of those who loves to experiment, within safety parameters. And having a gun in the safe that I haven't shot will drive me battier.
 
If I wanted to shoot .41 Long Colt I would buy some brass from Buffalo Arms.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies-accessories/reloadable-brass-cases?cat=612
Note that the .93" case for heel bullets (not in stock) is reformed from something else, the long Starline cases are new made.
They list a hollowbase bullet (not in stock).
https://www.buffaloarms.com/386-200-grn-hbrn-20-1-for-41-colt-bag-of-100-386185
Midway has a heel type.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...heel-type-round-nose-non-lubricated-box-of-50
Western Bullet lists both
http://www.westernbullet.com/41coltcaliber.html

There are a number of posts about loading .41 LC to be found with google.

As to powder, I don't know of a low smoke fake black powder.
My position is that if a pistol caliber has ever been loaded with smokeless, it has been loaded with Bullseye and the data is out there.

Blackhorn209 is a hot fake, note that cartridge pressures are right up there with top smokeless loads for the BP calibers.
Somebody mentioned old style semismokeless; King's Semismokeless and Lesmok were the most popular. I think them to be a combination of black powder ingredients souped up with some nitrocellulose. More dangerous to make and handle than either black or smokeless, the companies were glad to be shut of them. The last use was in .22 target ammo where they gave better accuracy than early smokeless and less fouling than black.
 
Way back when, DuPont manufactured Bulk Shotgun Powder. As I was told, it was intended to be used as a volume-for-volume substitute for black powder in cartridges. I have no idea if there is any still available anywhere. I happen have an 8oz. can of the stuff kicking around and it was made a VERY long time ago. It was old when it came into my possession but the powder does not appear to have deteriorated at all.

A couple of side notes. 1) Bulk Shotgun is REALLY bulky. The 8oz. can I have is the same size as a normal 1lb. can of smokeless, and the powder almost completely fills the can. 2) As a teenager, I fired an original 1873 Colt Frontier .44-40 revolver with ammo loaded with Bulk Shotgun. The owner of the revolver told me that it was too old to shoot with even light smokeless loads, but it handled the Bulk Shotgun loads with ease.

Sorry for the long-winded dissertation but if you ever find any Bulk Shotgun Powder, you might want to grab it. It may be just what you need for your 1892 revolver.

Best of luck in your quest.
 
I have most of a can of Dupont bulk smokeless. Used it as the priming charge for 45-70 in BPC matches. Forgot about that. Hasn't been made in years. Fluffy stuff.
 
The .38 Special was originally a black powder cartridge, so please stop with the "never use smokeless in a BP cartridge" BS. Just don't overload them.

From Wikipedia, the ballistic performance of the .38 Long Colt:

Ballistic performance

Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
125 gr (8 g) LRN 772 ft/s (235 m/s) 165 ft⋅lbf (224 J)
150 gr (10 g) LRN 777 ft/s (237 m/s) 201 ft⋅lbf (273 J)

It is essentially the same as a mid level load for a .38 Special or a starting load for a .38 S&W.

Lyman Reloading Handbook #44 can be found at:
http://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Lyman44.pdf

#44 gives the following loads for a .38 Special:
upload_2019-4-21_5-3-28.jpeg

and the following loads for .38 S&W
upload_2019-4-21_5-5-48.jpeg

So, if you use 3.5 grains of Unique you should be fine.
 
Just a thought. Many years ago I practiced shooting in my basement with wax bullets that used only the primer as a propellant. I seem to recall one could even buy bullets that were reusable, again using only a primer as the propellant.
 
Snidely. Your work is appreciated, but the caliber ls 41 Colt.
Sorry about that. I found this article:

http://harryo.sixshootercommunity.org/

Reloading the 41LC is actually pretty easy once you find all the components. After all, it is a straight-forward, straight-sided case. After loading several hundred rounds with the Ideal 310, my wife gave me a Redding 41LC die set for Christmas. These are much easier to use. The only problem is that no manufacturer currently makes a correctly sized 41LC shellholder for a press. Some list the .38 Special shellholder and some list the .45ACP shellholder for the 41LC. Neither is correct. The .38 Special size is a little too small and the .45ACP size is a little too big. I took a .38 Special shellholder and motodremeled it out slightly. You don’t have to remove much. The rims on 41LC cases are VERY small.

The reloading information I started with is from several pre-WWII reloading manuals. They list five smokeless powders, but only two of them are still used; Unique and Bullseye. I worked up to the maximum listed load of 5.0gr of Unique, but its accuracy was poor. That was surprising. Unique has always been "old reliable" for me. It was hard to keep them on the paper at 25 yards, so I moved in closer for testing. The best groups were about 3-1/2" to 4" at 15 yards offhand and were quite a bit high and a little to the left. I believe that Unique is too slow to expand the hollow base of the bullet quickly enough.

The maximum load of 3.5gr of Bullseye was better, with groups running between 2-1/2" and 3", and a little high on the black. Note that the oldest reloading manuals (intended for the Thunderer) stop at 3.0gr. Bullseye is faster than Unique, but not quite quick enough.

Then I tried FFFg black powder (BP). BP and magnum primers gave by far the best accuracy of any load tried with hollow-base bullets. BP’s best 5-shot groups were only 2" at 15 yards offhand and were centered in the black. I was also able to occasionally shoot groups as small as 1-1/4” to 1-1/2” at 15 yards from a sandbag rest. This load is with either the Rapine or Lyman hollow-base, soft-lead bullets, loaded in modern, solid-head, 1.132” long cases, with approximately 19gr of FFFg BP, a magnum primer, and SPG lube. The velocity is a little under 750fps. Although I can do better with my S&W K-38, I am satisfied with this level of accuracy in this gun. Keep in mind that I am not a competitive target shooter and I am sure that others could do better.

Goex BP leaves more fouling in the barrel than Swiss BP, but both are equally accurate. Tests with Pyrodex P powder showed that it was less accurate than BP, but cleaner. It was about as accurate as Bullseye, but dirtier. I have not tried any of the recent BP substitutes like Clear Shot or Clean Shot, so I cannot comment on them.
 
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