Using Red Dot for 9MM

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Viking357, at times you will find reloading information that are inconsistent as there are variables to laboratory testing. For this reason, you will often see advise to check many different manuals and published sources.

Most powder burn rate charts are not "absolute" rather they group or cluster powders by "relative" burn rates (And even Hodgdon's chart is titled "Relative Burn Rates"). If there are several same or similar burn rate powders, the order listed on burn rate charts may not "absolutely" indicate significantly faster/slower burn rate rather they are in the same/similar burn rate range.

On the Hodgdon "relative" burn rate chart, HP-38 is listed as #28 and W231 is listed as #29. Well, they are same "exact" powder but just because Hodgdon used alphabetical order and listed HP-38 first does not mean HP-38 is faster burning than W231. ;) Same goes for #65 Hodgdon 110 and #66 Winchester 296 which are same exact powder.

If you want to learn more about same/comparable powders, check this thread out - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-different-labels.797388/page-6#post-10806193

Over the years for choosing powders based on burn rate, I have used "groupings" of similar burn rate powders instead of "absolute burn rate". So for lighter powder charge target loads, I would suggest powders from "faster" burning group of powders and for full power/higher velocity loads, I would suggest from "slower" burning group of powders - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10644921


Faster burning pistol powders:

E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - Norma R1

Red Dot/Promo - IMR Red - Clays - 700X - Bullseye - Vectan Ba 10 - IMR Target - TiteGroup - Vectan AS - Am. Select - Solo 1000 - WST - International - Trail Boss - N320 - Vectan Ba 9.5 - No. 2 - Clean Shot/Lovex D032.03

W231/HP-38 - Zip - Sport Pistol - Green Dot - IMR Green


Slower burning pistol powders
:

Unique - Universal - W244 - IMR Unequal - Vectan Ba 9 - BE-86 - Power Pistol - N330 - Vectan A1 - Herco - Vectan A0 - WSF - N340 - 800X

No. 5 - Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03 - True Blue - HS6 - AutoComp - Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07 - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - 3N37

N350 - 3N38 - IMR Blue - W572 - Blue Dot - No. 7 - Major Pistol/Lovex D037-01 - Vectan Ba 7.5 - Pro Reach - Long Shot - 2400

Enforcer - No. 9 - Heavy Pistol/Lovex D037-02 - 4100 - Steel - Norma R123 - N110 - Lil'Gun - W296/H110 - 300-MP - 11FS - Vectan Ba 6.5 - H4227
Thank you Linux for this information I appreciate it
 
Thank you Linux for this information I appreciate it
It's bds (From my dogs Blaze, Daisy and Steffie or short for binary data set, whichever you prefer).

Linux Mint is the free open source OS I use for my computers and laptops (It's a streamlined high performance version of Linux which I prefer over Ubuntu I used to use) - https://linuxmint.com/

You are very welcome and glad to have you on board.
 
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9MM is particularly sensitive to bullet seat length (OAL cartridge length.) ... problems loading 9mm for my Browning HiPower ... go from rounds that would barely cycle the slide to rounds that would crater the primer and allow the hammer to follow the slide into battery. Do your due diligence... find data specifically for the bullet you are loading and start from there.
This problem could be from bullet setback when bullet nose of round in the magazine is slammed on feed ramp by slide and insufficient neck tension pushes bullet deeper in the case.

I used to push on nose of finished rounds against the bench top to check neck tension/bullet setback but found this did not closely replicate the impact force round experiences during slide cycling.

Now I load dummy rounds (no primer, no powder) to working OAL and measure before/after feeding the dummy rounds from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. While I prefer no bullet setback, reduction of up to a few thousandths is OK but if I measure significant bullet setback, I will investigate the cause.

Larger .356" sized coated bullets should improve neck tension and reduce potential for bullet setback.

BTW, we did a myth busting thread on neck tension and bullet setback on this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

FYI, even jacketed/plated 9mm bullets come sized .354", .355", .3555", .356" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453
 
Viking357, at times you will find reloading information that are inconsistent as there are variables to laboratory testing. For this reason, you will often see advise to check many different manuals and published sources.

Most powder burn rate charts are not "absolute" rather they group or cluster powders by "relative" burn rates (And even Hodgdon's chart is titled "Relative Burn Rates"). If there are several same or similar burn rate powders, the order listed on burn rate charts may not "absolutely" indicate significantly faster/slower burn rate rather they are in the same/similar burn rate range.

On the Hodgdon "relative" burn rate chart, HP-38 is listed as #28 and W231 is listed as #29. Well, they are same "exact" powder but just because Hodgdon used alphabetical order and listed HP-38 first does not mean HP-38 is faster burning than W231. ;) Same goes for #65 Hodgdon 110 and #66 Winchester 296 which are same exact powder.

Red Dot is a good example of conflicting burn rate data. Despite the data in previous posts showing that Bullseye is faster than Red Dot, the 2019 Alliant catalog shows that Red Dot is faster than Bullseye. They are extremely close though.
 
Red Dot ... Bullseye ... They are extremely close though.
For most of my reloading, which powder is faster burning is less of an issue.

But what may matter to OP is Bullseye meters way better than Red Dot due to smaller size.

Below are comparison pictures of Red Dot and Bullseye referenced to W231/HP-38 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10094185

index.php

index.php
 
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Powder maker websites tend to be more up to date than printed manuals - I prefer them over the books unless I am using powder (and the books) from a decade or two ago.
I agree generally but Alliant has recently removed tons of loads from their site. They list zero 9mm loads for red dot, for example.
 
From Alliant 2002
as noted earlier MAX charges reduce 10% to start. (my 2002 was clearer than 2006)

I prefer something a little slower but Red Dot (Promo) shot well for me in 9mm when I was using some up.
 

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Dudedog, since that container, I have used 2 more jugs and on my 3rd jug and I have noticed change in flake shape and ratio composition.

As Paul from Alliant confirmed, I suspect Promo has been better "blended" for improved metering and more consistent burn. I have some older Promo I saved for comparison and may do some testing.
 
For me, Red Dot works very well for 9mm and 45ACP.

And if you like Red Dot, you should definitely try Promo, which is at same burn rate but costs less and meters better. Promo is now my designated general purpose pistol range practice/plinking load powder and great for pistol caliber carbine load powder (For blowback action, faster burn rate does a better job of sealing brass with chamber walls than other slower burning powders before bolt moves back).

After several 8 lb containers of Promo, I like it so much that when my current 8 lb container of Red Dot is gone, I won't be buying any more Red Dot. Here's my thread on "reblended" Promo - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blended-promo-for-more-accurate-loads.841097/

BTW, Promo is currently the lowest cost pistol powder you can buy (As low as $110/8 lbs) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ponents-on-sale.707473/page-175#post-11117437

I took your advice and loaded 9mm with 115 grain copper plated bullets and Red Dot. I tried charge weights from 3.7 gn to 4.3. All had no problems cycling. Comparing recoil to Blazer 115 gn fmj, I probably could have pushed the charges higher. But, the best accuracy came with the 4.0 gn charge. It burns clean too.

It was also my first loads using a hopper baffle I bought from Titan Reloading for the Pro Auto Disk. I was pleasantly surprised to only get +/- .1 grain throws. Since Red Dot is a relatively large flake powder, I anticipated a much larger variation. Good stuff.
 
I do have some manuals but i wanted to ask to see what everyone thinks. i am new and want to learn the right way. Thank you for your response.!
Glad to hear that. We just want you safe.
As I say, get the load data from manuals. Doubling and triple checking here then to verify is smart. So kudos to you.

Btw when you reload a lot you’ll start to see patterns and have an idea of what the load ranges should be. This will also serve as part of your safety and checks. Knowing something doesn’t seem right will set off alarms in your head that will make you want to recheck the manuals and here. So better safe than sorry and it sounds like you got that!
 
Every time I see this thread I think you're talking about red dot sights. I know you're not but I no longer reload. Still, I'm gonna post my red dot on a 9mm: :)

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I was thinking the same.
The first time I shot a 9mm with a red dot optic was last summer. It was “different”. I’m not sure if I like it or not but it was cool to use different platforms and setups and learn new skills.
 
What often happens when a reloader finds a powder they end up using is it fits the demands for them in a way they prioritize. For instance burns cleaner, fills the case better, produces the velocity desired, is most accurate, more stable, not as temperature sensitive, doesn't have as high a peak pressure, burn rate, readily available or any combo of things. Finding what works for them is a thing that reloaders will personalize to their reloading practices. Though they may change preferences they often find something that they stick with in general.


So many powders with so many characteristics and things they are better at in some since that it can be a real task if you reload several calibers and find a powder that is best suited for several calibers without it being the best powder for all. Unique for example does real well in several calibers but is referred to as Dirt by many reloaders for is high amount of soot left in the barrel. I agree it does burn that way but its still a great powder and works well in several calibers. Currently I an burning up a 4lb can from the 80's I bought sealed and I cannot tell the difference between it over a new 1lb can in velocity, look, or smell. So the remaining 1.5lbs of an 8lbs jug will sit until that is gone.


Enjoy the journey!
 
I want to thank every one for their input. a lot of knowledge was given and I appreciate it.!!
 
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