Dating A T Series Browning Hi Power

Status
Not open for further replies.

nallac

Member
Joined
May 14, 2019
Messages
10
To set the scene. I am located in Northern Ireland and a member of the local Gun Club.

I recently purchased a T Series Browning Hi Power with 500-meter tangent rear sight and a Butt Slot for $380. which I regard as a steal. The weapon is in stunning condition . Img_2262.jpg Img_2262.jpg IMG_2264.JPG Img_2263.jpg Red Lining.JPG Sight.JPG IMG_2267.JPG Img_2262.jpg IMG_2264.JPG Img_2263.jpg Red Lining.JPG Sight.JPG IMG_2267.JPG The Serial Number is T374208 which i cannot locate on the Browning Web Date your Gun Site. T Series seem to run out T258001-261000 1969.

Questions 1. can anybody help me date the weapon
2. I am aware the T Series is much sought after due to the superior craftsmanship and finish, what would the true value of this weapon be
 
To set the scene. I am located in Northern Ireland and a member of the local Gun Club.

I recently purchased a T Series Browning Hi Power with 500-meter tangent rear sight and a Butt Slot for $380. which I regard as a steal. The weapon is in stunning condition . View attachment 841504 View attachment 841504 View attachment 841505 View attachment 841506 View attachment 841507 View attachment 841508 View attachment 841509 View attachment 841504 View attachment 841505 View attachment 841506 View attachment 841507 View attachment 841508 View attachment 841509 The Serial Number is T374208 which i cannot locate on the Browning Web Date your Gun Site. T Series seem to run out T258001-261000 1969.

Questions 1. can anybody help me date the weapon
2. I am aware the T Series is much sought after due to the superior craftsmanship and finish, what would the true value of this weapon be

Nice BHP and a excellent price. You stole that gun IMHO. So as to the date of the manufacture of the pistol. The Browning site is horrible for dating a pistol beyond the very basic date codes for C series and later guns. The serial number for pre C series guns really only gives you a range of when it was made and you need to look at other marks in order to narrow it down. FN Herstal's record keeping is more art than science. They often resused serial numbers for different contracts and often mixed parts from different versions to meet contract requirements. I can give you a WAG based on what I see.

The serial number is beyond what most people list as the serial number range for T series BHPs. Most people site 1969 as the end of T series production and the start of C series pistols in 1970. The reality is that T series BHPs continued until 1972. C series BHPs started in 1969. Based on your guns serial number and guns I have seen in the past I would put it as a late 1971 or 1972. It has a T series serial number but the characteristics of a C series. Note the spur hammer not a ring hammer seen on T series guns.

The gun has a 2 piece barrel. FN changed over to the 2 piece barrel in 1962 but guns as late as 1966 shipped with 1 piece barrels. FN never threw away parts. They were the kings of using old new stock from out of production versions in newer production versions. Often pieces from contract overruns.

So based on the limited things I can see I would place the gun in the 1971-1972 range. You can narrow it down by looking closely at the gun for proof marks, inspector marks and date codes. These are found on individual parts. Look at the base of the mag well.

This is an inspector mark *K which was used Delsaux Walthere who used it between 1929-1969. So if you can find a letter with a * above it that can tell you who inspected and approved the part.

Hi-PowerTriggerGuardMarkings.jpg

You can then look for letters like these. They are Belgian date codes like this.

Belgian_Date_Code_cursive.jpg

Finally look for number with what appear to be incomplete boxes or diamonds. The 7 in a partial box on this barrel tells you it was made in the 1st Qtr of 1967.

suoM446.jpg

If you can find enough of these other marks you can assemble a date range. Like on the barrel above the date code says 1st Qtr 1967 with a *M which was used by MAurice Scorpion between 1959 to 1969 so the barrel was made and approved between 1967-1969. The more codes you have the more you can narrow the range and come up with a best guess.

As to value it is worth exactly what you can get someone to pay you for it. If you were selling it here in the US on Gunbroker you I would see it selling between $1,200 to $2,000. It would push higher if you get the right bidders attention. If I was insuring the gun I would do it for $1800 which is sort of splitting the difference. The T series helps the value but a late T series is basically the same gun as a C series just like a early C series is the same as a T. The change from C to T except for the hammer change was not a "version change". It was an inventory designation change and incorporated a date code into the serial number. It was not like moving from a MKII to MKIII where there were design changes but small changes in the production process changed. On reason that the T series are prized because the bluing process changed late in the T series 1969-1970. The bluing and polishing process was automated during this change. This is why early Ts are more prized than later Ts. Hope this helps. If you post more pics of the small parts I might be able to tell you more.
 
WVsig, You certainly know your BHP. I was attracted to this weapon because I carried one during my Military Service (18 Years) and it brings back some great memories. Good and Bad. Knowing a little about the weapon places the icing on the cake and i cannot thank you enough for the comprehensive and interesting feedback. I have attached several more photos of the weapons markings for your perusal. The place where you mention an inspector mark seems to bear a R without a underscore ? Barrel.JPG Barrel Markings 1.jpg Barrel Marking 3.JPG Trigger Guard 1.JPG Trigger Guard 2.jpg Barrel Marking 2.JPG There no other markings on the pistol. The Value is for insurance purposes as i will not be selling this particular Pistol
 
WVsig, You certainly know your BHP. I was attracted to this weapon because I carried one during my Military Service (18 Years) and it brings back some great memories. Good and Bad. Knowing a little about the weapon places the icing on the cake and i cannot thank you enough for the comprehensive and interesting feedback. I have attached several more photos of the weapons markings for your perusal. The place where you mention an inspector mark seems to bear a R without a underscore ? View attachment 841594 View attachment 841595 View attachment 841596 View attachment 841597 View attachment 841598 View attachment 841599 There no other markings on the pistol. The Value is for insurance purposes as i will not be selling this particular Pistol

The last pic with a number or letter in the box can you tell what it is. That looks like a date code. What is the proof on the side of the barrel lug? Looks like it could be a date code. The other proof you which is on several parts of your gun is the final proof or the Proof of Leige. It is also sometimes referred to as the pineapple proof because of its shape and appearance. It is a combination proof that show it is a smokeless powder gun and provisional inspection proof.

index.php


I forgot to mention that inspector marks were not on pistols from 1968 ish to 1972 so the lack of letters with the * would fall into my initial WAG. The R could be Wagemans Sylvain who was inspector from 1951- 1965. The frame could have been made as early as 1965 but not serialized until later which is why the serial number is so high. It could have also been a contract gun with a specified serial number range but I believe it is a just a late T serial number.

I went and double checked in R Blake Stevens "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol" and on page 215 there is a picture of a "Capitan" BHP exactly like yours wit a spur hammer serial # T374117 He states that starting in 1973 they changed the name of the Tangent sight pistols to The Capitan and they used the older slides with earlier markings like the ones on your pistol. They used them until the Capitan was discontinued in 1979. So we are in the ballpark here IMHO. Enjoy that pistol it is a gem and an extremely nice example of a Tangent BHP.
 
Last edited:
WVsig, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I appreciate your posts but I don't think I've ever said Thanks.
 
WVsig, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I appreciate your posts but I don't think I've ever said Thanks.

No need to thank me. Just trying to help people out. BHP dates are confusing and raise a lot of questions. I am glad you found it helpful. A lot of info can be found in R Blake Stevens "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol", the late Steven A. Camp's website https://hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowerComments.html and in "..FN Browning Pistols, Side Arms that Shaped the World History.."
by-- Anthony Vanderlinden https://www.amazon.com/Browning-Pist.../dp/0970799799

Then there are the forums. Some of the info on the forum is very good. I have learned a lot from people like submoa, burgs, SRT Cop and others who used to post a lot over on the 1911forum and other places. These days a lot of them have scattered to the winds.

I have also talked at length with BHP smiths like Ted Yost, Don Williams, Jim Garthwaite, Bob Cogan and others. They are a wealth of info on how the gun works when you are working with them on a custom build.
 
WVsig The last pic with a number or letter in the box can you tell what it is. It looks like a figure 2. Once again, many thanks for sharing your knowledge and taking the time to reply to my post.
 
WVsig The last pic with a number or letter in the box can you tell what it is. It looks like a figure 2. Once again, many thanks for sharing your knowledge and taking the time to reply to my post.

That would be a diamond shape with a 2 in it. That would mean the part was manufactured and dated the first Qtr 1972. Its like a puzzle you just need to figure out all the pieces.
 
I know next to nothing about Hi Powers, but I do know this; that is a beautiful gun at a great price.
 
WVsig & 460, Thanks to you both. It is a beautiful pistol , so much more now I know its build history. I am off later today to convert live rounds into empty cases with it
 
GBW, It depends what you class as ordinary people.............Northern Ireland due to the particular in Country circumstances allows for ex Security Forces / Police / Prison Service, to carry a concealed Personal Protection Weapon (PPW Pistols) at all times. A Firearms Licence must be issued by the Police Service for Northern Ireland (PSNI) which is renewable every 5 Years. The Weapon must not be taken out of N Ireland, nor taken into Southern Ireland. All Police Officers are issued a Glock 17 for service use and they may carry their weapon, concealed when off duty. Their Police Warrant card serves as their Firearms licence. However i personally believe that as an Ex Service person, if you are entering an area that you feel under threat then don't enter that area.

An Non Ex Service person can join any Sports Gun Club and either borrow a club weapon (Which is returned to the Club after the Practice) or they can purchase single or multiple weapons, use them at the club and they can retain the said weapons at home, again a Firearms Licence must be issued by the Police Service for Northern Ireland (PSNI) which is renewable every 5 Years. The home must have a recognised Gun Safe for storage, which is inspected by the PSNI. Non Ex Service persons are not allowed to obtain a PPW and cannot carry a concealed weapon at any time. There are exceptions, where some political members of society are allowed to carry a PPW, this is more the exception than the rule.

Most ex service retain the weapon at home, rather than carry, for Home Defence in case of an home attack. The Home must have a recognised Gun Safe for storage. That said N Ireland has many, very good Gun Clubs such as the Northern Ireland Target Sports Association (NITSA) which offers excellent Ranges and Competition shoots such as Service Pistol and Revolver, IPSC Handgun Practice, 2 Gun match Mini Rifle & handgun, ect. This allows NITSA Members to use their PPW as a Competition or Target Practice weapon. Being a member of a Gun Club also allows the Firearms licence holder to obtain other weapon on their Firearms Licence for use at the Sport Gun Club only, but not as a PPW that can be concealed carried. The sport Pistols and Rifles can be retained at Home along with the persons PPW. I personally have a Glock 19 for personal protection and a Browning HI Power for sport shooting.

There was a Government move several years ago to remove the permission for Ex Service Members to retain a PPW at home. This was a politically motivated action to demonstrate that peace was prevalent in Northern Ireland and appease certain members of the N Ireland society . Suffice to say, once again the British Government had as usual, got their facts and motivations completely wrong and realized this when the certain members of the N Ireland society decided to restart the murders of off duty and Ex Service Member. The move to remove the PPW Licence was dropped. However being a member of a Gun Club means that in the future, if the PPW Licence is withdrawn, members will still have their Sporting weapons at home. Enough said on that matter

Hope this answers your question
 
GBW I forgot to say that weapons can be purchased from a registered Gun Dealer and then the Firearms Licence must be applied for, unless the person is a member of a Gun Club, the licence will not be issued. The exception being Farmers who use .22./ 1.77 Rifles or Shotguns for pest control. Firearms are tightly controlled in N.Ireland. Air Rifles are also classed as a Firearm and must be licenced. Two referees must also be obtained who are not related to the applicant.
 
It’s a wonderful answer and thank you for taking the time and trouble to provide it.

Like most Yanks I thought all of the United Kingdom was virtually gun free.

In my part of the world, south Alabama, HPs are seldom seen for sale any more and yours would be at least $1500, perhaps more. I took one not as desirable as yours to a gun show not long ago and was offered upwards of $1000 more than once.

Thanks again.
 
Last edited:
No Problem, The Mainland (England, Scotland and Wales) does not provide for concealed carry at all. The remainder of their Firearms laws are the same . Thanks for the comment on my recently acquired BHP. It is a lovely gun and shoots like a dream, more refined than my Glock 19
 
nallac

Outstanding acquisition with your new to you Hi-Power! Looks to be in great shape and here's hoping it shoots as well as it looks!

I had a T series Hi-Power many years ago but while it looked spectacular on the outside, it was anything but at the range. Had no trouble selling it (actually made a decent profit on it), and waited awhile before testing the Hi-Power waters again. This came soon enough when they introduced the Mk.II version.

I know, gone was the impeccable bluing, replaced by a matte finish that while being exceptionally plain looking has been quite durable over the long haul. What I enjoyed instead on this new Hi-Power was the larger, more visible sights, the easy to use ambi safety, and the incredible out-of-the-box trigger that was on this gun (so good I didn't even bother removing the magazine safety)! Here for me finally was a Hi-Power that was as accurate as it was reliable and it is still one of the most prized pistols in my collection.

G39jFmH.jpg
 
Nice BHP Congratulations, a fine weapon. I carried the Mk II for many years in my service but i was initially issued what i now assume was the Mk I, which the armorer bulked up the safety catch hight with some sort of glue, to give a quicker safety release. I am very fond of the BHP as it brings great memories back. This particular pistol has a spiked foresight and a notched Rear Sight, giving a great Sight Picture. The trigger action (Magazine Safety Removed) is smooth and so far it is accurate
Rear Sight.JPG Sight.JPG
 
Bannockburn. When i think on it the Armorer used epoxy Resin to increase the safety catch hight
 
nallac

The problem with the safety on my T series wasn't so much that it was so tiny (it was), but that it was incredibly difficult to put it on or take it off. There were times when I contemplated using a plastic mallet on it just to get to work!
 
HPs in general are among the best feeling, best looking best and finished, most reliable handguns Ive run across.. True the safety is stiff, but nobody uses it anyhow and modern guns don't even bother with a safety. Triggers vary widely (so do Glocks) burt are easily corrected. The T-series tangent model shown here is the top of that very exclusive heap - best of the best.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top