This one has a lot of irrelevant rants. I'm open to actually discussing this move and how it affects gun ownerships. Trips to the concentration camps, Germans, etc. - lot of silliness. Discuss the referendum or let's call it quits.
According to preliminary results, Swiss overwehelmingly voted to implement the EU Gun Ban
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old lady new shooter
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I lived in Germany in the early 70's. For part of that time (a year or so) I had a Swiss roommate. She told me that during the Third Reich the Swiss farmers were standing armed in the roads to prevent the Nazis taking over their country.
The position of Switzerland in WWII was complex. Some in the gun world like to spin the tale of how the Swiss militia system prevented invasion. That is only part of it. The Swiss were prepared to fight and had plans for a central Switzerland last stand. Despite being neutral, they had some secret negotiations with the French, which didn't help. Hitler was annoyed at that and almost invaded because of it.
There were some collaborators and pro Nazi types in the small professional Army corps that were discovered and thrown out. In general, the Swiss didn't support of the Reich, esp. the German Swiss as they had more knowledge of what was happening.
However, the major deterrent to invasion was not the militia. Switzerland had little armor or air power. The Germans could have taken them with some loss. The Swiss collaborated on major issues and that precluded invasion. They exported products to Gemany, food, arms, technical equipment. They were deeply involved in financial collaboration. Most importantly, they let the Nazis have unfettered transportation through their mountain tunnels to Italy. They also mined the tunnels and were to blow them up if invaded. That would have been a royal pain and made invading Switzerland not worth it. The Germans got what they wanted.
Folks don't mention the Swedes. They were in the same position. They traded with the Germans and allowed troop movement. They did try to arm up and swore to resist strongly. They helped save the Danish Jews. You don't here the militia story and rifle in the house paradigm about why they didn't get invaded. The Germans had plans but didn't need to.
The gun world has two stories from WWII that they sometimes use to defend gun rights in the USA as a deterrent against invasion. Invasion is unlikely but the stories are:
1. Yamamoto said: Gun behind the trees, blah, blah. No one can find any real source of that. Scholarly research clearly shows that the Japanese never had contemplated invading the USA - ever.
2. The Swiss story as mentioned above. They also point to low crime in Switzerland which is more demographics than folks with Mausers and Sig 550s fighting criminals.
Farmers in the road - sounds good but that wasn't the real interaction solely.
There were some collaborators and pro Nazi types in the small professional Army corps that were discovered and thrown out. In general, the Swiss didn't support of the Reich, esp. the German Swiss as they had more knowledge of what was happening.
However, the major deterrent to invasion was not the militia. Switzerland had little armor or air power. The Germans could have taken them with some loss. The Swiss collaborated on major issues and that precluded invasion. They exported products to Gemany, food, arms, technical equipment. They were deeply involved in financial collaboration. Most importantly, they let the Nazis have unfettered transportation through their mountain tunnels to Italy. They also mined the tunnels and were to blow them up if invaded. That would have been a royal pain and made invading Switzerland not worth it. The Germans got what they wanted.
Folks don't mention the Swedes. They were in the same position. They traded with the Germans and allowed troop movement. They did try to arm up and swore to resist strongly. They helped save the Danish Jews. You don't here the militia story and rifle in the house paradigm about why they didn't get invaded. The Germans had plans but didn't need to.
The gun world has two stories from WWII that they sometimes use to defend gun rights in the USA as a deterrent against invasion. Invasion is unlikely but the stories are:
1. Yamamoto said: Gun behind the trees, blah, blah. No one can find any real source of that. Scholarly research clearly shows that the Japanese never had contemplated invading the USA - ever.
2. The Swiss story as mentioned above. They also point to low crime in Switzerland which is more demographics than folks with Mausers and Sig 550s fighting criminals.
Farmers in the road - sounds good but that wasn't the real interaction solely.
old lady new shooter
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The Swiss culture (at least in the German Swiss areas) is a big factor too. In 1975 I visited Zurich. I don't remember the exact location of this experience but I wanted to cross a street which had literally no traffic and the nearest traffic lights were quite far in both directions, so I stepped off the curb. A passing pedestrian informed me that I was not allowed to cross there, only where there was a traffic light. Oh, and don't drop a gum wrapper on the sidewalk either. (Not something I would do anyway, but I saw someone else get scolded for doing so.)
skeeterfogger
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You can bet the free roamers will be the ones armed.
John Joseph
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I feel sorry for the Swiss. I hope there is a legal avenue for them to challenge that referendum.
JN01
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AlexanderA
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It's actually a good thing for Americans. Once you arrive in Europe, you don't have to worry about passport checks and customs inspections as you go from country to country.
The Schengen agreement actually has two aspects:
1. For outsiders, such as Americans, the external European border is all they have to be concerned with. Once inside, it's like traveling within one big country.
2. For Europeans, they can live and work in any Schengen country. A Polish plumber can go and ply his trade in Spain. Obviously, a passport from any European country thus becomes far more valuable.
This is not going to stop mass shooting by Islamic Extremists, such as the 2015 Paris attacks. I am of the opinion that these gun ban laws are the Politicians "doing something" to placate the fearful by actually doing nothing to improve their security.
It could be worse. Back in the middle ages, when the Black Death hit France, they went out and killed Jews. That did not stop the spread of the disease, but it made the French feel better.
It could be worse. Back in the middle ages, when the Black Death hit France, they went out and killed Jews. That did not stop the spread of the disease, but it made the French feel better.
WheelGunMan
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bandur60
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But in the final paragraph: "Nothing changes, however, for soldiers ..... Even for hunters, everything remains the same." ..........????????
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Snejdarek
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I don't agree with your description. The head of staff of Swiss army made proclamation that there is no politician, no general in the country who has the legal power to surrender to foreign power. In a very public speech, he instructed the militia that they must fight to the last man.
Germany could not reach military victory - because there was simply noone who could wave the white flag with any significance. They could occupy the valleys but otherwise they would be looking at decades long conflict losing troops needlessly in the mountains.
You don't mention that they did the same with allies. That's what neutrality is about.
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Snejdarek
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Nothing changes for the gun owners the same as nothing changed in 1986 with closing he full auto registry in US.
old lady new shooter
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Some AZ government official recently joked (or not?) that we should have that at the Cali border!Hmm, I'm imagining that it might be a good idea between some of them.
old lady new shooter
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Personally I have no interest in ever going back to Europe.
Yes, and China is doing the same to US. If shooting war starts between US and Iran that will be first battle. It's good thing Europe today is not same as in late 30s because in terms of defense countries like Czech Republic are on their own. Want to see proof look at Ukraine. When they agreed th give up nuclear weapons three countries guaranteed their integrity. One took land away and the other two did next to nothing. This is reminescent of what happened in 1939 to Poland. What I find amazing is they have allied themselves with same countries.
Agree.
I am really glad this thread is still open, IMHO we have had a good thread as adults (that almost made morning coffee come out my nose).
We are a gun board, and I get that, but to understand that....but again IMHO one thing really missing here is the ability to explore the different aspects behind the decisions.
As the mod said:
This one has a lot of irrelevant rants. I'm open to actually discussing this move and how it affects gun ownerships. Trips to the concentration camps, Germans, etc. - lot of silliness. Discuss the referendum or let's call it quits.
I really have not seen any rant, and I have not seen any post that is irrelevant.
Everything posted here is showing how the US is different, in about every way you can think of, from the rest of the world. Free movement is a VERY big deal to the EU setup....and I can get that....for an American everything is so close. They also have a very different mindset over there then most of americans......no matter if they lean one way or the other.
Now as to gunz.....the way we do things now is going to change, I have no doubt about it....will it change in the 30 or so years I have left on the planet...who knows....I kinda doubt it.....will it change for my grand kids....yea I think so. These same types of reforms are coming to a country near you. They will go slow, and once the law is put in place it is very hard to "un-do it"......
As to the swiss, I am not up and up on the EU "membership" deal, but I think I do know more then most....as I understand things the swiss have a unique relationship with the EU and are the only country with that kind of relationship. I don't remember off hand but there are different "tiers" of EU membership....I will have to refresh my memory while I am patching servers this morning.
I will also leave you with this last bit.....Europe for those that have never been there, is pretty darn different from here.....one guy talked about a gum wrapper.....very true, this also holds true for Malaysia....not the place you want to get out of line in. It is really hard for us in the states that have never LIVED over seas, not just hit the sights to understand how they think over there and how things are done.
Hopefully by keeping this thread open we can get a little education going on just how things are around the world.
That was a lot of typing for not saying much.
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Snejdarek
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Why is that?
Too little talk about the actual topic and far too much drift into things that are off topic, not only for the thread but for THR as a whole, has killed this thread. GEM gave you the reasons and y'all chose to ignore him so this one is done.
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