Buffalo Bore is now offering a Dangerous Game line loaded with Lehigh Bullets.

Zaydok Allen · May 20, 2019

https://buffalobore.com/

I just stumbled across this and thought I'd post here. Buffalo Bore is using Lehigh monolithic flat points to produce a line of dangerous game revolver cartridges. They look interesting, and the huge meplate is what catches my eye. I've been wanting to play with these bullets for some time, but have had other priorities than loading ammo.

Velocities are impressive along with the price.

MaxP · May 20, 2019

Yes indeed!

Zaydok Allen · May 20, 2019

MaxP said:
Yes indeed!

View attachment 842358

CraigC mentioned awhile back you all would be playing with these bullets during your next bovine bash. Please share your results when you get a chance.

MaxP · May 20, 2019

A couple of us used the pre-production .480 Ruger load at last year’s Bash with great success. I shot a gaur hybrid that twisted the scales at 2,600 lbs and my friend’s daughter shot a big water buffalo bull with that same load.

roscoe · May 21, 2019

I guess I am unclear on the advantages over hardcast. Copper is lighter, so less space is available for propellant. It seems like that would impose undesireable constraints. Just looking at .45 Colt, my preferred round, my read of their data is that this load is less powerful than their hardcast offerings. Is it related to California regulations? If so, more power to them, I suppose.

MaxP · May 21, 2019

roscoe said:
I guess I am unclear on the advantages over hardcast. Copper is lighter, so less space is available for propellant. It seems like that would impose undesireable constraints. Just looking at .45 Colt, my preferred round, my read of their data is that this load is less powerful than their hardcast offerings. Is it related to California regulations? If so, more power to them, I suppose.

I doesn’t take high impact velocities to deform the nose of a cast bullet. It takes heavy bone to do that with boring regularity. Don’t think 14,000 psi .45 Colt loads in this instance but rather 30,000 psi. They are +P or “Ruger-only” type loads. These loads are meant for dangerous game where the consequences of bullet failure comes with the potential of great bodily harm.

The monolithic solid will out penetrate its lead counterpart significantly. It will not wipe its nose off thereby hindering penetration and the damage the meplat is capable and designed to produce). For uncompromising penetration the monolithic solid is the way to go.

The pre-production .480 load we used in Texas last year was running lower velocities than the production version and it still penetrated impressively.

Tradmark · May 21, 2019

The little 480 version did so well at such a low recoil point! Very impressive!

Tradmark · May 21, 2019

LRDGCO said:
I would tend to agree with you in 45 Colt. One can't really push hard cast fast enough in 45 Colt to get deformation impacting accuracy or terminal performance.

However, with some.of the more powerful rounds being shot by revolver loonies, in the 1800 - 2200 fps range, deformation does become an issue. A monolithic solid will deliver certain penetration whereas a BHN 20 lead bullet is brittle enough that it may not. It's a fairly niche market, but if one is going to shoot a Cape Buffalo with a handgun, these seem a surer bet.

For us mere mortals, a wide meplat cast bullet in the 250 - 300 grs range at 900 fps will take care of all our needs.

Ive seen alot of deformation on animals smaller than cape buff. Cast bullets at 900 fps dont make a huge wound channel. just not the way i would go. I actually had an 1100 fps load worked up for my daughter for her waterbuff but really having seen how much deformation ive seen even at sedate velocities the choice of the lehigh was a no brainer.

MaxP · May 21, 2019

We're talking about this:

Versus this:

MaxP · May 21, 2019

We established the Bovine Bash for the express purpose of testing revolver calibers/bullets/loads on well, bovines. It has been eye opening and it revealed large gaping holes in what is considered conventional wisdom. I was a dyed in the wool hardcast guy for a long time. I am no more. They are still useful on certain game like whitetail (but you can kill whitetail with nearly anything) and in these applications I will still use them. On something capable of hurting, no more. Here is a sample of various hardcast bullets we've pulled out of bovine carcasses. Not acceptable IMHO.

Tradmark · May 21, 2019

LRDGCO said:
We’ll have to agree to disagree. The suggestion that cast bullets at 900 FPS don’t make a huge wound channel is so absurd that I can’t see a basis for rational discussion.

We will. But i think i can at least take solace you obviously have no experience. Its not an opinion its based on observational facts!

CraigC · May 21, 2019

One cannot lose sight of the fact that these are "dangerous game" loads, not for whitetail deer or hogs. Lessons learned on thin skinned game are often not even relevant to the heavy stuff.

The advantage is that they do not deform, at all. They can smash through heavy bone and muscle and penetrate through the vitals without any deformation whatsoever. Any amount of deformation is going to negatively affect penetration. Proponents of cast bullets have succeeded in creating a few myths. I believed them myself for a long time. Cast bullets do not have to be run too fast to deform. They can deform at virtually any useful velocity. This is not to say that they do not work, because they do, within their limitations. Problem is those limitations have often been minimized, if not completely ignored.

Cast bullets do work well at lower velocities and a good many critters have fallen to them but this idea that 900fps is all that's needed is simply false. Greater velocity increases tissue damage and penetration. That is, until you run into the limitations of the material, where you start losing penetration due to deformation. Which is where the monolithic solids come in, because they can be run at any speed and still hold their wad.

Weight is turning out to be much less critical than we believed. It is important in cast bullets because you need momentum to overcome the effects of deformation. The monolithics are able to do more with less weight. You still need enough weight to get the job done but it is less critical than with cast.

These were recovered from an 1800lb longhorn bull. This is my favorite 355gr cast bullet from Beartooth. It did the job. It broke shoulders, destroyed the vitals and also did not exit. Even at 1200fps, the deformation is undeniable. The bullet on the far right sheared 20gr off its weight. The longhorn is long and lean and nowhere near as wide or as tightly constructed as the water buffalo below.

These bullets were recovered from two 2000lb water buffalo. The Punch bullets could be reloaded and fired again. The hard cast, not so much. Several of the Punch bullets exited, despite being ~80gr lighter.

I'm still a big believer and user of cast bullets. I just work within their limitations and know that they are not fail-safe. They work very well, even on bigger game but are simply not the best tool for the job when the quarry can stomp, bite or gore you.

Zaydok Allen · May 21, 2019

roscoe said:
I guess I am unclear on the advantages over hardcast. Copper is lighter, so less space is available for propellant.

That is correct. Monolithics tend to be lighter , and thus longer to achieve similar bullet weights. Thus there is less case capacity and less powder can be used. That extra length is also why you tend to see bands on the bearing surface of the bullets. Without it you'd have too much bearing surface from my understanding, and you could end up over pressure easily. There needs to be a reduction in bearing surface. This also requires the use of a faster burning powder than you would typically use in your heavy high velocity loadings if you want to achieve the best velocity, at least with semiauto monolithic bullets. Revolver cases tend to have pretty high case capacity, and you may be able to push them pretty dang fast.

A good example is the Cutting Edge 190 gr .40 bullet meant for use in 10mm auto. Bluedot and AA#9 are your top performing powders for 10mm, but if using this bullet you are better off with something like Longshot to get the best velocity as the dwell time will be too low to fully utilize AA#9's burn rate. In that case you have the added issue of using a taper crimp, rather than a heavy roll crimp like on revolver cartridges. Look at the crimp on these BB Dangerous Game loads. It's impressive to say the least. You'll see similar on a lot of heavy hard cast ammo. The primary purpose is to avoid bullet creep from my understanding, but it does provide a bit of tension to the cartridge delaying bullet movement for that fraction of a second to get a more complete burn. I was seeing excessive flash, sooty cases, and poor accuracy from my 38 special loads. Increasing my crimp eliminated all those issues.

That does beg the question why they can't increase the bearing surface a bit in monolithics for semiautos. I'm not going to speculate other than to say it may be a safety measure to help experimenters avoid trouble.

It seems like that would impose undesirable constraints. Just looking at .45 Colt, my preferred round, my read of their data is that this load is less powerful than their hardcast offerings.

Power as related to ft lbs of energy is a largely useless number when determining the effectiveness of a bullet. It tells you nothing about how the bullet will act in a living body. It only combines bullet weight and velocity into one number. That may be useful if you know the bullet weight, because you'll get an idea of how fast it's moving. But I'd rather just know the actual velocity. Higher speed usually means flatter trajectory and greater effective range, but what does that really mean if the bullet is really light? It means you can hit a target from farther away provided it's heavy enough to buck the wind, but the bullet may or may not do what you want, or may come apart on impact. So power becomes a mute point when considering actual performance. For actual performance we need to look at real world tests on living creatures.

Monolithics not designed to expand, at least from handguns, are less prone to deformation and track straighter through an animal from all the reading I've done from folks like MaxP and some other hunters on THR. So you don't need to push them as fast anyway. So "power" becomes rather irrelevant when you consider the bullet construction as the more important factor.

Is it related to California regulations? If so, more power to them, I suppose.

This is a side benefit, as is avoiding leading, and having another option in guns with polygonal rifling.

Tradmark · May 21, 2019

No its not and theres plenty they dont work really well on. You can bet its becoming obvious you havent shot that much. Its not arrogance, its digging through gut piles and packing out elk way further up the mountainside it ran hundreds of yards down because a teeny little flatpoint going slow didnt put the animal down quick because the hunter in question listened to some twit in the internet that hadnt shot much and was just passing on conventional wisdom passed on by some other group of inexperienced hunters.

The other day a guy i know was arguing long distance shooting and equipment with some internet know it all. He asked him his experience and why he thought he knew anything. The guy i know soent a career as a recon marine sniper for almost 20 years.

Zaydok Allen · May 21, 2019

LRDGCO said:
Yes. You are talking about shooting cows.

And in that incredibly niche segment, I acknowledged the benefits of monolithic solids. But you just can't seem to grasp that there are very, very few people in the world shooting 1,000 lbs plus bovines with handguns and that for the vast and overwhelming number of human beings on Earth, there is no need for monolithic solids at 2,000 fps, and that cast bullets will work perfectly well for their handgun needs.

Well, the bovine part isn't the point really. Testing these bullets on larger and heavier animals than most people will care to shoot is the point. If I know these bullets will put down a massive animal like MaxP uses them on, would I have any concern about their effectiveness on elk, moose, or as a defensive cartridge to be used against a large bear.

1000 + lb animals of the elk and moose variety get hunted every single year across North America. If I was going after one, especially with my 460 S&W magnum, I'd be choosing a monolithic solid, based on what people who actually have tested these bullets are saying about them.

If I spend $1.00 per shot vs $4.00 per shot to kill a big critter and put it in my freezer, will I honestly care? No. I want the bullet that will blow straight through that animal and drop it as fast as possible.

Zaydok Allen · May 21, 2019

MaxP said:
It's the extremes that reveal the limits.

Exactly.

Zaydok Allen · May 21, 2019

@MaxP, @CraigC , @Tradmark

By the way gents, if I said anything above about loading monolithics that isn't accurate, please correct me. I've never loaded them, but have done a fair amount of reading on the topic because I'm interested in the aforementioned Cutting Edge bullet. I've also corresponded with CE about loading this bullet, but it's likely I may have some of the minutia incorrect.

MaxP · May 21, 2019

460Shooter said:
@MaxP, @CraigC , @Tradmark

By the way gents, if I said anything above about loading monolithics that isn't accurate, please correct me. I've never loaded them, but have done a fair amount of reading on the topic because I'm interested in the aforementioned Cutting Edge bullet. I've also corresponded with CE about loading this bullet, but it's likely I may have some of the minutia incorrect.

You are right on. I used CEB solids in a .480 on water buffalo (evidently just another cow) in Argentina a number of years ago and they performed exceedingly well. They are hard to beat for sheer penetration. The meplat is a bit on the small side for my taste, but they are a quality bullet.

Tradmark · May 21, 2019

Cast bullets are fine but dont do much at 900 fps. For smaller animals they can be fine but rarely are the best choice. Basically if its not big enough for a monometal theres a better expanding choice. @900 fps you are just protracting the animals suffering and not getting a good clean quick kill because you cant handle recoil.

CraigC · May 21, 2019

LRDGCO said:
It's impossible to overestimate the arrogance and ignorance of people. Very, very few people in the world shoot cows. That you need monometal solids to shoot Daisy is all well and fine. Bully for you.

The suggestion that cast bullets at sub 1000 fps will not do for everything else is patently absurd.

Context is everything. This thread concerns Buffalo Bore DANGEROUS GAME loads.

It's almost comical when we post the results of our "bovine bash" and people take the condescending approach that we're "shooting cows" and that that's all it's about. The bovine bash isn't a cattle hunt. It's a live bullet test. Why? Partly for curiosity's sake and academic purposes but mostly to prepare for actually hunting dangerous game with handguns. Both the members you're being very condescending to have taken Cape buffalo in the last year with handguns. Tradmark has hunted Africa with handguns several times. The bovine bash events in Texas were a precursor to much of that. The things we've learned there have been critical in bullet/load selection for big hunts. You weren't there, you've never done it and apparently you're stuck in the past so we don't expect you to understand.

Our favorite gunsmith Jack Huntington and his Cape buff.

MaxP's Cape buff:

Two of Mark's:

Our friend James and his:

WrongHanded · May 21, 2019

I always learn a lot from threads like this. Thanks to all you knowledgeable and experienced individuals who can share your real world findings.

I have a question:

Given the expense of such ammunition, and also given the cost of the projectiles alone, would you suggest they are worth it? Not purely from a performance perspective, but from the perspective of cost and practice.

For example, I reload hard cast. I've work up loads in various calibers that are proving quite accurate (in my eyes at least). The beauty of this is that I can make 50 of my hard cast loads for the cost of a box of .44 mag range ammo (probably less). Which means I can afford to practice with these loads at the range, and gain familiarity with my load in my gun. I don't think I could swallow the cost of doing so with mono solids, and if I could I'd be shooting less.

So for someone looking a defensive woods load, even if they are purchasing ammo rather than making it, is the extra cost worth it for the improved performance? I really would like to know what you think.

Tradmark · May 21, 2019

WrongHanded said:
I always learn a lot from threads like this. Thanks to all you knowledgeable and experienced individuals who can share your real world findings.

I have a question:

Given the expense of such ammunition, and also given the cost of the projectiles alone, would you suggest they are worth it? Not purely from a performance perspective, but from the perspective of cost and practice.

For example, I reload hard cast. I've work up loads in various calibers that are proving quite accurate (in my eyes at least). The beauty of this is that I can make 50 of my hard cast loads for the cost of a box of .44 mag range ammo (probably less). Which means I can afford to practice with these loads at the range, and gain familiarity with my load in my gun. I don't think I could swallow the cost of doing so with mono solids, and if I could I'd be shooting less.

So for someone looking a defensive woods load, even if they are purchasing ammo rather than making it, is the extra cost worth it for the improved performance? I really would like to know what you think.

For shooting purposes id say no. From a hunt perspective on anything larger than deer i would say yes. I dont do alot of shooting with the premiums unless its factory bullets for guns sighted in as such. The way i always look at it is that i dont want to risk a trophy fee or lose 7 days hiking the mountains after elk and fail due to being cheap on a bullet. I will always use the best bullet for the job. For defense from big things with teeth and claws i would only always use the best, most fail proof bullets. I do practice alot with cheaper bullets.

I will also add that i have had a helluva chase on a cow elk using a 475L and 425 grain cast bullets. The extra distance she gained due to bullet failure made the pack out a very very long one. I get less deformation with solid copper solids or barnes/swift aframes shooting them into concrete blocks than i see too often for comfort shooting cast into bone.

Walkalong · May 22, 2019

I did a lot of cleanup and re-opened the thread, please stop with the pissing contest and discuss the matter at hand, the OP's post.

Zaydok Allen · May 22, 2019

Walkalong said:
I did a lot of cleanup and re-opened the thread, please stop with the pissing contest and discuss the matter at hand, the OP's post.

Thanks Walkalong.

MaxP · May 22, 2019

Thank you. It would be nice to be able to exchange ideas and share experiences without the personal attacks. This is a topic worth discussing and it’s a shame when they get shut down.

My apologies to the forum for taking the bait, but I’ve never been one not to stand up for myself.

Planning a hippo hunt in the next year or two and will most definitely be using Buffalo Bore’s DG ammo.

Buffalo Bore is now offering a Dangerous Game line loaded with Lehigh Bullets.

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Attachments

Member

Member

Sixgun Nut

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Sixgun Nut

Member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Similar threads