This might be a great OW question but here goes. A few years ago 10-15. I was reading about how a guy was trying to see how far he could shoot his military cannons. If I recall there was a law of physics that came into play. something like after a point it did not matter how much powder you added or the angle of the cannon. You could only shoot a certain object so far regardless of what you tried. Am I wrong? Usually I am so it wouldn't hurt if I were. I tried to duplicate this by shooting a cannon of mine with more powder and different angles and we couldn't get past one mile. Thoughts?
How far can you shoot a canon ball?
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I bet you are right with a regular cannon. There would be a limit to how much powder to add that could effectively transfer its energy into a ball. Seems logical that a longer barrel would help. Heck folks can chunk a pumpkin over a mile with just air, surely you can beat that.
Mauser lover
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PICS! I wanna shoot a mile!
(Sorry, I have nothing meaningful to add)
(Sorry, I have nothing meaningful to add)
kBob
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Actually there is a mathematical law for round ball in the atmosphere and it relates to a constant number multiplied by the ball diameter.
I have forgotten it and who's "law" it was unfortunately.
wait...Euler? German 1700s?
-kBob
I have forgotten it and who's "law" it was unfortunately.
wait...Euler? German 1700s?
-kBob
whughett
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Naval cannons had ranges in excess of 20 miles. But that was those big 16/50 guns with barrels measured in yards of length and a whole lot of powder. Black powder was used as the ignition charge, I think, maybe.
Heck I was a snipe in the engine room, all I knew was when they fired the deck plates jumped and the whole ship shook.
Heck I was a snipe in the engine room, all I knew was when they fired the deck plates jumped and the whole ship shook.
skeeterfogger
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If remembering correct some of the largest BP cannons could shoot like 1.5 miles.
troy fairweather
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I have a q ball moarder i made, have yet to find any of the balls. Shot one over a 2000+ foot long lake, did not see it hit the water.
mcb
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It's sort of more of a velocity limit. The theoretical velocity limit for a gunpowder propelled projectile cannot exceed the speed of sound in the propellent gases (not the speed of sounds in the open air) In reality you can't get to that limit, issue will bring you up a little short of the theoretical limit.
Since the mass goes with the cube of the diameter and the cross sectional areas goes with the square of the diameter the larger the caliber the better the sectional density and ballistic coefficient get for the ball. So once you reach max velocity for your propellant you can only extended range by going to a larger caliber. Assuming we are only talking spherical projectiles.
Since the mass goes with the cube of the diameter and the cross sectional areas goes with the square of the diameter the larger the caliber the better the sectional density and ballistic coefficient get for the ball. So once you reach max velocity for your propellant you can only extended range by going to a larger caliber. Assuming we are only talking spherical projectiles.
robhof
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One Navy Captain during the war of 1812 was striking British ships over 4 miles away by bouncing the balls off the water, remember some of the story from American history, many yrs ago, teacher was a fellow B/P lover. Have forgotten the names though...
skeeterfogger
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I think cannon balls did more real troop damage by skipping the ball into the ranks.
Trunk Monkey
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The maximum range of an M110A2 SP Howitzer with a Rocket Assisted Projectile is 30 kilometers
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Trunk Monkey
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RedlegRick
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155mm towed gunbunny here, our projos topped out at 15 klicks with RAAP rounds. The reason round balls max out at one mile is a combination of frontal aspect, mass, and the specific impulse imparted by the propellant. Once upon a time I could show you the formula, but since sending projos downrange at extreme distances hasn't been in my skillset for oh, 30(!) years now, you'd have to look it up on Wiki.
Mauser lover
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I'm pretty sure solid round balls for antipersonnel use is (was) pretty rare. I'm thinking infantry casualties inflicted by artillery happened mainly due to shrapnel and explosives?
CapnMac
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Depends upon the cannon, and which propellant is being specified.
"Biggest" BP is likely the 100 ton guns at Malta and Gibraltar. These would be 17 3/4" rifled muzzle loaders ith a 6000m (6km) range firing 910kg (2000#) shells. These were meant to defend se forts from the Italian 50ton RML guns on three of their battleships at the time.
Smoothbore BP guns require some windage to load them. So, they, very genreally, wind up being limited to around 3-4 miles' range by the mid 1800s.
Once you get smokeless powder as a propellant, and breech loading rifles, ranges increase markedly. By WWI, ranges were easily 10 to 12 miles, and was more limited by the distance one could spot fall of shot shot. The USN 16"/50 could consistently put a 2200# shell into a battleship-sized target at 14-16 miles range. That range was extended to 18-20 miles with rocket-assisted projectiles (which were only accurate enough for general land target engagement, not precision shhip-to-ship engagement.
Now, there is some very present research going on which could lob a RAP over 500 miles--but those schema are laregely more "cannon busted" missiles than assisted ballistic projectiles.
"Biggest" BP is likely the 100 ton guns at Malta and Gibraltar. These would be 17 3/4" rifled muzzle loaders ith a 6000m (6km) range firing 910kg (2000#) shells. These were meant to defend se forts from the Italian 50ton RML guns on three of their battleships at the time.
Smoothbore BP guns require some windage to load them. So, they, very genreally, wind up being limited to around 3-4 miles' range by the mid 1800s.
Once you get smokeless powder as a propellant, and breech loading rifles, ranges increase markedly. By WWI, ranges were easily 10 to 12 miles, and was more limited by the distance one could spot fall of shot shot. The USN 16"/50 could consistently put a 2200# shell into a battleship-sized target at 14-16 miles range. That range was extended to 18-20 miles with rocket-assisted projectiles (which were only accurate enough for general land target engagement, not precision shhip-to-ship engagement.
Now, there is some very present research going on which could lob a RAP over 500 miles--but those schema are laregely more "cannon busted" missiles than assisted ballistic projectiles.
RedlegRick
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Before we start talking about Paris guns, let's dial it back to the typical hobby cannon. If OP is crafty, I don't see it hard to make an ogive dart of some sort that would add mass and stability and probably add some range to his piece. Anyone here ever do or consider something like that? Perhaps a hunk of sewer pipe filled with concrete and capped off, with a reducer and some crude fins welded on. Load it atop a wood sabot and it might work?
Trunk Monkey
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They used Grape Shot for antipersonnel. Which amounted to a canister full of musket balls
kBob
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Grape is a navy round having LARGE submunitions used to damage sails and rigging and masts
Field Artillery in MZ days used Canister which was depending on the size of the gun generally one ounce shot (16 gauge, .667 cal) in either a cloth bag or a thin metal can aka cannister.
In the days of the 12 Pound gun/ howitzer solid shot WAS used against massed troops beyond the effective range of Cannister though Case was preferred (Hollow cannon ball with balls inside as prefragments) or Shell (heavier walled hollow ball with powder only inside) but because fuzes lacked the time accuracy of those today and range finding itself was not accurate, against advancing troops a single solid shot was sometimes as or even more effective.
As the OP is a hobby cannon cocker I assumer he meant round ball.
Something to remember is that as velocity goes up drag goes up even faster whether figured against the forward edge of the shell or from the size and shape of the area of vacume behind it.
While I was a Cannon Battery Officer I did not need to know the actual math as it was already done for me.
-kBob
Field Artillery in MZ days used Canister which was depending on the size of the gun generally one ounce shot (16 gauge, .667 cal) in either a cloth bag or a thin metal can aka cannister.
In the days of the 12 Pound gun/ howitzer solid shot WAS used against massed troops beyond the effective range of Cannister though Case was preferred (Hollow cannon ball with balls inside as prefragments) or Shell (heavier walled hollow ball with powder only inside) but because fuzes lacked the time accuracy of those today and range finding itself was not accurate, against advancing troops a single solid shot was sometimes as or even more effective.
As the OP is a hobby cannon cocker I assumer he meant round ball.
Something to remember is that as velocity goes up drag goes up even faster whether figured against the forward edge of the shell or from the size and shape of the area of vacume behind it.
While I was a Cannon Battery Officer I did not need to know the actual math as it was already done for me.
-kBob
Jessesky
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I feel like this makes sense with black powder because it doesn’t increase in pressure as it burns like smokeless
shooter1niner
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View attachment 843223
This might shed some light. This is from Chickamauga and Chattanooga Military Park / Battlefield Visitors center
This might shed some light. This is from Chickamauga and Chattanooga Military Park / Battlefield Visitors center
Loyalist Dave
Member
Actually there were three methods of anti-personnel shot.
Canister
Grape
AND..., wait for it.....Skipping solid shot at an angle to an infantry formation. You get more casualties than lobbing the solid shot into the formation from above, and perpendicular to the line, with direct solid shot fire, you had a max potential of three casualties IF they were fighting with three ranks. Two ranks became the norm early on in the AWI.
WHY skip the ball at an angle AND why not use grape? Well the average field piece prior to the 19th century, were from one to three pounders, especially in North America. Easier to move about than the heavier guns. It wasn't until Napoleon at the beginning of the 19th century that the size jumps up to an average of 6-pounders, but often go higher (better roads in Europe at the time you see) So the load of pellets in canister and grape really isn't that much. Can't really take out all that many men unless they are right on top of the cannon and the crew.
And what else do you get with Skipping? You can use grape and canister out to the range of the muskets. Makes the cannon simply a large shotgun. Which means, your cannon crew is within range of volley from from the infantry, and while 3 casualties could be absorbed by an infantry company of 50 men who were shot at with a volley from other infantry..., 3 casualties among a cannon crew after they take a volley takes that gun out-of-action.
Skipping the solid ball into the infantry at an angle..., gives you a better chance of taking out guys AND really bothers the infantry, because they can SEE the impacts of the skipping ball as it travels into them, while at the same time it can be done with the infantry out of musket range to the artillery crew.
Direct Fire...
OR This....,
And it doesn't have to be going that fast. A 3 lb ball is 21,000 grains, so if it comes in at the twice the speed of a major league fastball, say at 180 mph (264 fps), you can see it but you don't to get hit with it. Getting hit with a 90 mph 5 ounce fastball is very painful, but getting hit with a projectile that is 9 times heavier and moving twice as fast ??
Even if you don't hit them but break up their formation..., it will take the sergeants a bit of time to reform the men, and they aren't advancing on your position, AND they are thinking twice about moving forward.
LD
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kBob
Member
Jessesky,
Actually Rodman was doing research with black powder formed in to disc shapes with multiple holes so that as the holes burned they increased in volume/ area and did increase in pressure during the burn and had been working with tubes such as some smokeless has before the American Civil war. The discs even got used in "Rodman" guns.
Everyone,
As for the ammo chest data notice that the field artillery was low angle with the highest elevation given as 5 degrees above horizontal and the longest time of flight as 5 seconds
"Use SHOT at masses of troops, and to batter from 600 up to 2000 yards" right off that range card. interestingly the longest range given on the card for SHOT is 1680.
Both CASE and SHELL had time fuses that depended on a burning powder train in the mid 1800's and these powder trains were generally lit by the main charge, in almost all cases by blow by around the projectile in the US. a crew member upon hearing the needed setting on the fuse set the fuse, typically by either cutting a paper tube that would have a powder train inside it or punching a hole in a light metal plate like heavy tin foil generally of copper or brass.
The bursting SHELL and CASE of 12 pounders generally had an effective burst radius of less than ten yards, that meaning 50 percent of esposed troops with in ten yards would become casualties. Take a look at the distance between various fuze settings. Take a look at the differences in time of flight for ranges. No consider troops are moving, you have no laser range finder or even decent optic range finder, and some one is settting your fuze with a pocket knife under fire.
SHELL and CASE worked best against pre plotted ranges and as pre planned fire rather than on the fly.
SHRAPNEL is actually a kind of later shell although the term is often and frequently miss used in place of "fragment".
It is for Artillerist something like the pure gun bunny hearing the term Assault Rifle to describe some semi auto sporter.
SHRAPNEL was sort of a combination of the idea of CANNISTER and CASE. The shell body is a areo dynamic shape like a modern bullet and so required a rifled bore cannon. The shell body was thick compared to HE rounds and contained basically a load of cannister and a propelling charge in the base of the shell body that would propel the fuse assembly and the cannister shot out the front at a set time. In essence a flying shotgun. With the development of the 1897 French 75mm a great deal of planning was done for these rounds and gaz-illions were made for cannon up into WWI. The fan shaped pattern of the beaten zone of these SHRAPNEL rounds was MUCH more effective than the oval beaten zone of the CASE and SHELL. Again though for fixed locations and known ranges they worked, but were lacking in a fluid battle.
Interetingly CANNISTER was used right into WWII by the little US 37 mm AT gun and perhaps others.
SHRAPNEL has been vastly improved into today's AP Anti Personel rounds loaded with FLECHETTE giving a much more dense pattern that any bird or clay pidgeon shooter can appreciate and MUCH greater effective range of individual submunitions.
An AP (flechette) round with a modern electric fuse and data from a laser range finder make for a frightening nasty thing on the battlefield for troops in the open. We even had them for the 155mm M109 system that is still with us as the Crusader.
Some CANISTER type applications of flechette loaded rounds were also used that simply launched the flechetes this being known as muzzle activation and was used in as an example the M67 90mm Recoilless rifle. And yes this is just CANNISTER with little arrows rather than balls.
-kBob
Actually Rodman was doing research with black powder formed in to disc shapes with multiple holes so that as the holes burned they increased in volume/ area and did increase in pressure during the burn and had been working with tubes such as some smokeless has before the American Civil war. The discs even got used in "Rodman" guns.
Everyone,
As for the ammo chest data notice that the field artillery was low angle with the highest elevation given as 5 degrees above horizontal and the longest time of flight as 5 seconds
"Use SHOT at masses of troops, and to batter from 600 up to 2000 yards" right off that range card. interestingly the longest range given on the card for SHOT is 1680.
Both CASE and SHELL had time fuses that depended on a burning powder train in the mid 1800's and these powder trains were generally lit by the main charge, in almost all cases by blow by around the projectile in the US. a crew member upon hearing the needed setting on the fuse set the fuse, typically by either cutting a paper tube that would have a powder train inside it or punching a hole in a light metal plate like heavy tin foil generally of copper or brass.
The bursting SHELL and CASE of 12 pounders generally had an effective burst radius of less than ten yards, that meaning 50 percent of esposed troops with in ten yards would become casualties. Take a look at the distance between various fuze settings. Take a look at the differences in time of flight for ranges. No consider troops are moving, you have no laser range finder or even decent optic range finder, and some one is settting your fuze with a pocket knife under fire.
SHELL and CASE worked best against pre plotted ranges and as pre planned fire rather than on the fly.
SHRAPNEL is actually a kind of later shell although the term is often and frequently miss used in place of "fragment".
It is for Artillerist something like the pure gun bunny hearing the term Assault Rifle to describe some semi auto sporter.
SHRAPNEL was sort of a combination of the idea of CANNISTER and CASE. The shell body is a areo dynamic shape like a modern bullet and so required a rifled bore cannon. The shell body was thick compared to HE rounds and contained basically a load of cannister and a propelling charge in the base of the shell body that would propel the fuse assembly and the cannister shot out the front at a set time. In essence a flying shotgun. With the development of the 1897 French 75mm a great deal of planning was done for these rounds and gaz-illions were made for cannon up into WWI. The fan shaped pattern of the beaten zone of these SHRAPNEL rounds was MUCH more effective than the oval beaten zone of the CASE and SHELL. Again though for fixed locations and known ranges they worked, but were lacking in a fluid battle.
Interetingly CANNISTER was used right into WWII by the little US 37 mm AT gun and perhaps others.
SHRAPNEL has been vastly improved into today's AP Anti Personel rounds loaded with FLECHETTE giving a much more dense pattern that any bird or clay pidgeon shooter can appreciate and MUCH greater effective range of individual submunitions.
An AP (flechette) round with a modern electric fuse and data from a laser range finder make for a frightening nasty thing on the battlefield for troops in the open. We even had them for the 155mm M109 system that is still with us as the Crusader.
Some CANISTER type applications of flechette loaded rounds were also used that simply launched the flechetes this being known as muzzle activation and was used in as an example the M67 90mm Recoilless rifle. And yes this is just CANNISTER with little arrows rather than balls.
-kBob
kBob
Member
Loyalist Dave,
Great Post! Shooting from the side or at an angle through the target is known as (I will likely misspell it) enfilade. It is the direct fire crewman's dream shot whether he be a 'chine gunner, cannon cocker of just Joe Snuffy with a rifle.
BTW guns as small as two pounder can still stack one ounce 16 guage ball for CANNISTER.
-kBob
Great Post! Shooting from the side or at an angle through the target is known as (I will likely misspell it) enfilade. It is the direct fire crewman's dream shot whether he be a 'chine gunner, cannon cocker of just Joe Snuffy with a rifle.
BTW guns as small as two pounder can still stack one ounce 16 guage ball for CANNISTER.
-kBob
Loyalist Dave
Member
As a matter of fact, in 1986 the lieutenants of the Infantry Officer School at USMC Quantico went to Fredericksburg Battlefield to study the gun positions. The Confederate artillery (the defenders) were set up in classic interlocking, flanking fire. During the study the instructor showed how in the 20th century, you simply substitute 30 caliber, medium machine guns but use the same tactics. It's not new. Henry V of England used interlocking fields of fire with his archers on both his flanks at Agincourt, with the impact zone crossing in front of his main infantry position.
LD
LD
Jim Watson
Member
I went out with the local reenactment battery once. It had an assortment of guns, I got the ten minute training as powder monkey on a three pounder "grasshopper gun." It wasn't much punkin with ball but with bag shot it would have been hell to face in an infantry assault.
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