.40 s&w load

Can't offer any load data but sorry if you already know this but HP-38 is the exact same as Winchester 231. So if any of your load books has that powder (231) use it.

I'd be fine with 180 data. Start min and don't go over midway.

I'm using HP-38/W231 under a 175 grain LSWC in my 5" M&P40. I'm loading just above the starting load in my Lyman 48 manual. My chronographed velocities strangely enough are well above book for that load (938 FPS) so I've not increased the charge. Cycling, recoil, and pressure signs are all good.

Jcrafty said:

hp38 ... [precision] bullets coated 185 gr. LRNFP.

Is it safe to use this data and start at minimum. 185 gr. Is kind of an odd size.

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Welcome to THR.

Hodgdon load data used smaller .400" sized plated bullet with rounded base which leaks a lot of gas whereas your coated bullet will be likely sized larger at .401" which will require less powder charge - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

180 gr BERB FP W231/HP-38 Dia .400" OAL 1.125" Start 4.4 gr (872 fps) 26,400 PSI - Max 5.1 gr (984 fps) 33,500 PSI

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While I use up to 4.3 gr W231/HP-38 with lubed lead 180 gr TCFP bullets, lower powder charges will work as well.

I would suggest start charge of 3.6 gr as you can always go higher.

FYI, this Guns & Ammo article covers light 40S&W loads, including loads with 180 gr lead bullet (And article went down to 3.5 gr with W231/HP-38 and 180 gr lead bullet) - https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/ammunition_40lite_091806/138689

And if you want accuracy, consider loading RNFP bullet longer than SAAMI max of 1.135" OAL - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9362819

I load RMR 180 gr RNFP to 1.155" OAL but use your barrel/magazine to determine the working OAL that works for you - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9644303



Precision Bullets 185 gr RNFP indeed is sized larger at .401" and looks like you may get much deeper seated bullet base in the case so you may need to go lower than 3.6 gr as start charge - https://precisionbullets.com/product/40-185-rnf/

I would try 3.6 gr at longest working OAL and if needed, incrementally work down until slide won't cycle reliably and work back up from there while looking at accuracy trend. If you are happy with slide cycling and recoil, work up.

Thomas Mayberry said:

I'm using HP-38/W231 under a 175 grain LSWC in my 5" M&P40. I'm loading just above the starting load in my Lyman 48 manual. My chronographed velocities strangely enough are well above book for that load (938 FPS)

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You are not alone experiencing higher velocity than published when using Lyman 40S&W load data.

That's because Lyman used larger groove diameter test barrel of .401" instead of more typical .400".



So slug your barrel and if groove-to-groove is larger at .401", use Lyman load data. But if groove-to-groove is more typical .400", use more conservative published load data or reduce your start/max charges.

Be safe.

Is the bullet in question missing it's lube groove? If so that is why that is why it weighs more. It will probably have less of the bullet in the case than your average 180 grain lead bullet with a lube groove everything else being equal. There is always small variations in bullets when going from one manufacturer to another. I wouldn't be afraid to use 180 grain data as long as you aren't going up to the max charges. Unless you are using the exact same bullet, same case, same primer, same lot of powder, and same gun as the manual your results will vary slightly.

Many lead bullets can vary by a few grains bullet-to-bullet, depending on brand and weight. But I think in OP's case, it's more about bullet sizing, nose profile/ogive and resulting bullet seating depth.

When working with unknown bullet as to working OAL referencing load data that doesn't match the bullet type being used (In this case plated TCFP bullet sized .400" vs coated lead RNFP sized .401") with different amount of bullet seating depth, I think it's better to start off conservative.

And as to using Lyman load data, we don't know what OP's barrel groove-to-groove diameter is.

The standard answer for a load question is "Use published data. Start low and work up." I would just use Hodgdon's 180gr BERB FP data. Or even the 180 gr HDY XTP data, now that I see that it is lower. The five grains difference between 180 and 185 is most likely not a concern until you are over the midpoint and approaching the maximum loads. Like others have said, load them longer to fit your chamber, but make sure to check that they fit your mags also. If you're loading for multiple handguns and don't want to mess with specific ammo for specific guns, then just figure out which gun has the shortest chamber (or mag) and load to that.
If you attempt to go lower than the data, don't load a bunch until you know it will cycle your specific gun. There's way too many variables to diagnose the minimum powder charge that will cycle a specific handgun.

cougar1717 said:

The standard answer for a load question is "Use published data. Start low and work up." ... most likely not a concern until you are over the midpoint and approaching the maximum loads

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Since there are reloading variables, even test barrel variables, this advice is not always sound.

Here's Lyman #49 load data which used .401" groove diameter test barrel.

• 180 gr Jacketed HP W231 OAL 1.115" Start 5.0 gr (927 fps) 20,400 CUP - Max 5.6 gr (1015 fps) 22,800 CUP

And here's Hodgdon load data. So starting at Lyman load data of 5.0 gr would put you at max charge of Hodgdon load data.

• 180 gr HDY XTP W231 OAL 1.125" Start 4.1 gr (797 fps) 23,800 PSI - Max 5.0 gr (947 fps) 32,900 PSI

If you are going to use Lyman load data for 40S&W, I would slug the barrel and make sure it was .401" groove diameter. If the groove diameter was .400", I would use more conservative load data (likely tested with .400" groove diameter test barrel).

cougar1717 said:

The standard answer for a load question is "Use published data. Start low and work up." I would just use Hodgdon's 180gr BERB FP data. Or even the 180 gr HDY XTP data, now that I see that it is lower.

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This is ill-advised. Plated and especially jacketed projectiles will produce a lower degree of bore sealing than the coated lead bullet the OP proposes, and thus need heavier charges to compensate. Using those heavier charge with the better-sealing coated lead bullet may produce substantially higher, even dangerous pressures. It's safe to use lead data with plated or jacketed (stuck bullet risk aside), but it's dangerous to apply plated or jacketed data to coated or lead projectiles without a reduction in charge weight to compensate for this factor.

ray15 said:

This is ill-advised. Plated and especially jacketed projectiles will produce a lower degree of bore sealing than the coated lead bullet the OP proposes, and thus need heavier charges to compensate. Using those heavier charge with the better-sealing coated lead bullet may produce substantially higher, even dangerous pressures. It's safe to use lead data with plated or jacketed (stuck bullet risk aside), but it's dangerous to apply plated or jacketed data to coated or lead projectiles without a reduction in charge weight to compensate for this factor.

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I have to disagree with this. Given the same weight, bearing surface, diameter and charge weight, lead will produce higher velocities than jacketed not because of higher pressures but because lead has lower friction than a jacketed bullet. Lead may "bump up" to provide a better gas seal in the event that the two types are undersized for the groove diameter (or chamber throat in revolvers) to begin with. Try slugging the bore using comparable lead and jacketed bullets and gauge the difference in effort between the two.

Thomas Mayberry said:

I have to disagree with this. Given the same weight, bearing surface, diameter and charge weight, lead will produce higher velocities than jacketed not because of higher pressures but because lead has lower friction than a jacketed bullet. Lead may "bump up" to provide a better gas seal in the event that the two types are undersized for the groove diameter (or chamber throat in revolvers) to begin with. Try slugging the bore using comparable lead and jacketed bullets and gauge the difference in effort between the two.

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This is a commonly held fallacy, but it is a fallacy. This is not an either-or scenario. Lead bullets both have lower friction as well as both being sized larger and bumping up more, both of which trap more pressure for a given charge weight. Even when you reduce the charge weight to equalize the pressure, the lead load will still produce a higher velocity. The increase in velocity is due to the lower friction, but you must indeed reduce the charge to avoid creating higher peak chamber pressure when repurposing jacketed or plated data for use with lead.

This is easily observed in published load data. Unfortunately there is little lead load data for 40S&W, so lets look at some 9mm luger, from the latest Western Powder load data:



We see at 115gr. the lead bullet takes less charge to reach ~34.4K PSI than all plated and jacketed 115s. The listed Barnes XPB is loaded to a lower pressure but it merits noting that solid-copper projectiles like it follow their own unique load data. The lower charge is required because the lead seals up better, trapping more pressure. The resultant velocity is also highest for the lead bullet. This is the effect of the lower friction. If friction was the dominant factor reducing it could only make less pressure, not more.

We see the same trend at 124gr, and to a lesser extent at 147. Sometimes the differences are small, sometimes they are not. But the overall trend is that lead takes less charge, so blindly applying plated or jacketed data to lead bullets is dangerous to do and nothing to recommend. Can you get away with it? In most cases yes. In some cases the charge ends up very close to the same. But there are cases in which the starting charge for a jacketed bullet is higher than the max charge for a lead counterpart.

Without any pressure test data of the lead bullet you need to reduce the charge weight given for jacketed or plated - but of course if you had pressure data on the lead you'd just use that.