AD or ND in the Legion Hall on Monday

.308 Norma said:

It was just a blank, but it was an M-1 Garand (30-06) blank, and DANG it was loud! On Memorial Day, after performing the 21-gun salute, playing Taps and raising the flag at 4 different cemeteries, as well as at the Veteran’s Memorial in the little park in Downey, Idaho, those of us who volunteered for the Honor Guard arrived back at the American Legion Hall.

Once inside the Hall, we proceeded to eject the clips full of empty cases from our rifles. The way we load our 7, M-1 Garands for a 21-gun salute, is we put 5 fired and resized cases in the bottom of the clip, put 3 “live” blanks on top, then shove the loaded clip into the rifle’s magazine and allow the bolt to pick up a “live” blank and shove it into the chamber as it slams shut. We then put the rifle on “safe” until whoever is giving the commands at the ceremony says “load.” On Monday (Memorial Day) we repeated that procedure 5 times. However, on Monday, someone must have shoved a 4th “live” blank into one of the rifles just before we performed the last ceremony. Then once inside the Hall, whoever was unloading that rifle, for some reason, pointed it at the ceiling and pulled the trigger.
The ceiling is pretty low in that building (which I suppose added to the BANG!!!) and it now has a permanent black spot. I’m glad nobody got hurt. My ears quit ringing after a few minutes.

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Someone needs a primer on the proper procedure of unloading and checking their assigned rifle. I guess my question is WHY did they feel it necessary to pull the trigger? To take the preload off the spring for long term storage?

I was thinking that you needed to create some three-round clips - then I realized that your third volley would then be followed by a series of "pings"... .

Are these GI blanks or handloaded blanks?

I take it you are not using a blank-firing adapter and just cycling the action by hand?

theotherwaldo said:

I was thinking that you needed to create some three-round clips - then I realized that your third volley would then be followed by a series of "pings"...

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Only if they were using blank adapters. If they were cycling the actions by hand, the last casing (and the clip) would not be automatically ejected.

Why wouldnt you just eject the clip after each time you were finished and leave the bolt locked back, showing the gun empty?

You can always lower the bolt and drop the hammer when they go back into storage after making sure they are clear.

Just seems like poor safety discipline all around.

Just curious here, but why arent the rifles cleared after the ceremony and before you leave?

Sounds like some might need a refresher course in some basics.

It's just that I've got 1, 2, 5 and of course 8 round clips... .

.308 Norma said:

I hope I don't hurt anyone's feelings here, but I try to stay away from some of those older guys when they have M-1s in their hands - even though they're shooting blanks.

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I try to stay away from anyone who looks like they dont know whats up. Age has nothing to do with it either.

Too many people dont understand just how dangerous blanks, and especially rifle blanks, are and can be.

I worked in a wild west show at an amusement park as a summer job my junior and senior years in high school, and have been shot closer than I should have been with them a number of times. 45 caliber pistol blanks can and will burn right through your shirt and pants and will give you a nasty burn at 5-10'. Its even worse on bare skin. They are nothing to take lightly.

Something like a 30-06 blank is a lot more powerful. We had a couple of M1's in the house growing up, and my dad had a can full of GI blanks that we mostly used for New Years and the Fourth of July. We learned early on as kids, that even though they were "blanks", they were very dangerous, and the guns were always to be treated as if loaded with live ammo. Blanks or not, empty or not.

As far as pissing anyone off by pointing out they need to be more careful and do better, screw them! You shouldnt have to even bring it up. That was one of the few things our kids were allowed to "correct" and adult about growing up. If we/they were around anyone with a weapon and they saw something that they knew was not right, sound off!

Nothing like your 5 year old telling the guy next to you at the range to watch their muzzle.

So it was a 22 gun salute. Even better.

Maybe not executed real well by that fella though.

All firearms should be unloaded BEFORE getting into the vehicle to drive to where ever you're going, even with blanks. Actions should be left open. The guns should be checked again BEFORE moving from the vehicle to the inside of the building and a 3rd time before being stored in the safe.

Any unintentional discharge of a weapon is an AD. Anything else is deliberate. If the AD is caused by negligent behavior then it is both an AD and a ND. You could make a good argument that transporting loaded weapons and bringing them inside a building was negligent. Had it been a live round and someone was injured whoever was in charge was negligent, even if they didn't pull the trigger. That required forethought. Someone having a brainfart and accidentally pulling a trigger is not a negligent act.. It is an accident, but just because it is an accident does not release the person from responsibility. If the accident was caused by negligence,and someone is hurt then the consequences are greater.

Many gun games have a triple redundant safety system.

The shooter unloads and looks into the chamber, if it’s clear, he then shows it to the RO who confirms there is nothing there. The the firearm is pointed at the berm and hopefully dryfired. I have seen them go bang after 4 eyeballs from two different heads have confirmed them to be empty. I’d say a bang in a safe direction beats one in a bad one and someone needs to adapt a better procedure or get glasses.

No matter the weapon system, if you're not totally familiar with it, DON'T USE IT!!

BTW, technically this is not a "21 gun salute." By protocol, a 21 gun salute is reserved for heads of state, and is fired by cannons.

At military funerals, the salute is three volleys by rifles. The number of members of the squad can vary, although it's most often 7. The number 21, then, is just the result of a coincidence.

.308 Norma said:

I don't know if they are "GI blanks" or not. They're not "handloaded blanks" though - the Post Commander orders them from someplace.
The M-1 Garands do have blank adapters over their muzzles. The adapters have what looks to me like about 22 caliber holes through them. Obviously those small diameter holes create just enough back pressure to cycle the M-1 actions. Someone told me the small diameter holes makes the rifles have more of a "POP" too, but I don't know that for a fact.

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You can identify GI blanks by the card wad with red sealant, held in place at the mouth of the case by an annular crimp. These (at least the WW2 version) are loaded with EC Blank Fire powder, which is pretty potent stuff. GI blanks are designed to function with GI blank adapters, cycling the action normally. The supply of WW2 blanks may be drying up.

AK103K said:

As far as pissing anyone off by pointing out they need to be more careful and do better, screw them! You shouldnt have to even bring it up. That was one of the few things our kids were allowed to "correct" and adult about growing up. If we/they were around anyone with a weapon and they saw something that they knew was not right, sound off!

Nothing like your 5 year old telling the guy next to you at the range to watch their muzzle.

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And, quite honestly, having the person stand up in front of everybody and conduct training is an excellent way to provide both corrective action for the person AND training for everybody else.

Every opportunity for training, I say.

we also had a 22 shot go off after the salute. a "volunteer" pulled the trigger a fourth time. the garands are loaded with a full clip of live blanks. we are not doing that anymore. we will be loading only three rounds into the clips from now on.

there is a video on how to do that somewhere on youtube, but all you have to do is: put an empty enbloc clip in the magazine, place a blank cartridge under the clip lip and onto the lifter, repeat twice more making sure you stager the rounds, push the rounds down into the magazine (make sure your other hand's thumb is holding the slide back) all the way to the bottom, let the bolt move forward a bit to make sure it goes over the top round, and then let the bolt release fully into battery (while keeping your thumb out of the way of the bolt).

piece of cake.

murf

murf said:

we also had a 22 shot go off after the salute. a "volunteer" pulled the trigger a fourth time. the garands are loaded with a full clip of live blanks. we are not doing that anymore. we will be loading only three rounds into the clips from now on.

there is a video on how to do that somewhere on youtube, but all you have to do is: put an empty enbloc clip in the magazine, place a blank cartridge under the clip lip and onto the lifter, repeat twice more making sure you stager the rounds, push the rounds down into the magazine (make sure your other hand's thumb is holding the slide back) all the way to the bottom, let the bolt move forward a bit to make sure it goes over the top round, and then let the bolt release fully into battery (while keeping your thumb out of the way of the bolt).

piece of cake.

murf

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This is the simple (but a tad awkward) way to load less than eight if you dont have one of the modified clips. You do have to make sure the bolt picks up the top round as it closes. It will also eject the clip on the last round though.

If they are worried about losing/recovering the clips, then whats being done is probably the best way to go, but the rifles should be cleared immediately after the ceremony. And you dont have to cycle whats left in the clip, just pull the charging handle back and catch the round in the chamber (or let it fly), and hit the clip release and it will pop up to be removed.

Another option might be to use a SLED, which is a single load "clip". They are used for single loading the Garands and remain in the gun after firing and have to be manually removed. Never tried to use one with more than one round though, but it might work. If not, then maybe have the clips modified to remain in the gun like the SLED does after firing. That way you just load three rounds into the rifle, and the bolt locks open on empty, and the clip stays put.