Sloppy Cylinder in my Ruger NMBH

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Icebear

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As I had to learn irritatedly: the cylinder of my new New Model Blackhawk Convertible (.45, 4.6") is quite sloppy resp. has a (remarkable) play, also in cocked condition. I am not used to that with revolvers. My revolvers don't have such a behavior, for example my old Rossi .38S (about 350 Dollars) or my .22 Harrington&Richardson (400-500 Dollars), as well as any other revolver I had in my hands so far. I always thought, that is a bad sign.

That play or sloppiness surprised me even more at a new (and newly designed) revolver, even more as it is a remarkably more expensive product as the mentioned one above.

I read / heard, that this is purportedly intended by Ruger. The manufacturer would design and manufacture a bit of cylinder/base pin play as an aid to proper cylinder/bullet/forcing cone alignment.

1. Question:
Could that be some kind of an excuse or some kind of making a virtue of necessity?

2.Question:
If this make no sense; there are manufacturers offering alternative base-pins such as Belt Mountain or Wolff. Would you recommend such a solution?
 
Most of my Rugers get a locking Belt Mountain base pin at some point. That said, have you shot it yet? Curious how it shoots. My absolutely loosest revolver, a .454 Bisley (a pre-production test gun), is also one of my most accurate. I would suggest trying it first.

This is a 5-shot 50 yard group I shot with the above mentioned revolver. It's boringly accurate.

SG-NewSBH-8.jpg
 
Howdy

First, you have to define just how sloppy the cylinder is.

There are three different elements to define.

1. Endshake: The amount of loose travel forward and back the cylinder exhibits when locked in battery.
2. Rotational Play: The amount the cylinder is free to rotate when locked in battery.
3. Wobble: The amount of angular play the cylinder exhibits when locked in battery.

Without putting a number on each of these values, it is impossible to determine if your Ruger cylinder is 'sloppy' or not.

Endshake is easy to determine. With the cylinder in battery, push the cylinder as far forward as possible and insert the largest shim that will fit between the rear end of the barrel and the face of the cylinder. Then repeat with the cylinder pushed as far back as possible. The difference will be the amount of Endshake. Although zero Endshake is desirable, a few thousandths of Endshake is common, and not the end of the world.

Rotational Play is more difficult to determine. Ideally it should be measured in degrees, but that is pretty difficult to do. So an alternative is to measure in thousandths of an inch how far the cylinder is free to rotate at its circumference from one extreme to the other. I'm playing with my old Blackhawk 45Colt/45ACP convertible that I bought back in 1975 right now. I would guess the cylinder is able to rotate a total of about .010 in total, from one extreme to the other, just using my calibrated eyeball. I have been shooting this revolver for over 40 years, and have never worried about the amount of Rotational Play.

Wobble could be fairly easily determined by putting the gun in a padded vice on a Bridgeport and using an indicator to measure the amount of angular wobble.

I own many, many revolvers. Many. All different brands, but mostly Colts, Smith and Wesson, and Rugers. I will tell you that every single one of them has a little bit of rotational play when the cylinder is in battery. New ones as well as revolvers that are over 100 years old. There is only one that has absolutely no rotational play, an 'original model' Ruger Vaquero. The reason it has zero rotational play is because the hand is a bit longer than usual. Just by a few thousandths, but it is enough that when the gun goes to battery the 'long' hand takes up any slack between the bolt and the locking slots on the cylinder, locking the cylinder as solid as a rock. What this actually means is that the cylinder is locked at one extreme of its rotational play. If I were to run a range rod down the barrel, I would probably find that to be true.

The bottom line is, revolver cylinders usually exhibit a small amount of rotational play. If you find one without any rotational play, consider yourself lucky. Or, perhaps you had a new cylinder custom line bored to line up perfectly with the chambers. In any event, ALL revolvers have a forcing cone at the rear of the barrel, to catch and align any bullet emerging from the cylinder slightly out of line with the bore.

Most of my revolvers also have a little bit of Endshake. Years ago I had a gunsmith tell me that the Endshake on one of my Colts was very bad. He said it would eventually get worse, the more I shot the revolver. Probably because of recoil battering the frame. I have fired thousands of rounds of Black Powder 45 Colt ammunition through that revolver over the years, and have not noticed the Endshake has grown any.

Aftermarket cylinder base pins such as those offered by Belt Mountain are only a few ten thousandths larger in diameter than a standard cylinder base pin. If the original base pin is loose in the cylinder, or in its holes in the frame, this will help lessen Wobble slightly. It will have no effect on Endhake and very little effect on Rotational Play.
 
First, you have to define just how sloppy the cylinder is.
+1
My New Model Ruger 45 Colt Blackhawk (4 5/8") has a little end shake, and a little rotational play too. I'm not going to try and define "a little" though - I'll just say both movements are a lot more than my Freedom Arms Model 97, 357 Magnum has.:D
But then again, my Freedom Arms Model 97 revolver cost 5 times as much as my Ruger Blackhawk. And while I like my Freedom Arms Model 97, it doesn't shoot any better (more accurately) than my Ruger Blackhawk - at least not for me.;)
Anyway, welcome to the forum Icebear!:)
 
All the Ruger SA I own are the three screw models. While many have passed through my hands, both old and new model, every one had a bit of cylinder looseness although not excessive. Accuracy was and is excellent in every last one.
 
Belt Mtn pin as mentioned and possibly a shim could help. However, would be good to know which issue you are concerned about as well as when you are checking the play. Not all revolvers lock at the same time/place in the shooting cycle. Some are when the hammer is back and some when the hammer is down, but before the trigger is released.

Does it shoot well? If so, I would leave it be.
 
I have a S&W Military and Police revolver from 1915-16 in 38 special. It has almost no finish left and was obviously shot A LOT before I bought it four years ago or so. It wiggles a noticeable amount forward/backward (and even a little bit sideways) when "locked up". Not a lot, but it's noticeable.

FWIW, it shoots just fine. It will outshoot pretty much any of my 2" or 3" 38 specials. My better 6" and longer revolvers in similar calibers will outclass it. It does just fine. I shoot it every now and then with mild handloads. I suspect my children will eventually be doing the same with similar results.

 
I would shoot it first and determine if there actually is a problem, but that’s just me.

If you are happy with a revolver that is quite sloppy in the cylinder lock-up department that's perfectly OK with me. My reply was to the OP and it seems he doesn't care for it.
 
The reply you got from the user "Iowegan", over on the rugerforum.net is the best explanation, and the "cure". He's a retired gunsmith.
 
If you are happy with a revolver that is quite sloppy in the cylinder lock-up department that's perfectly OK with me. My reply was to the OP and it seems he doesn't care for it.

And he should still shoot it first. Ruger will ask how it shoots I am sure. Won't hurt anything and it might even confirm there is a problem you can take to Ruger. It's just counter intuitive to me to not at least try it out.
 
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icebear, welcome to the forum.

a belt mountain base pin is not a solution to your problem, but I would install one anyway.

all revolvers have a forcing cone to allow for "tolerance stacking" (google this for the explanation). hand made revolvers, like freedom arms, have a smaller cone because tolerances are tighter resulting in less stacking. ruger revolvers, and most other "production" revolvers, are made to greater tolerances hence greater stacking and larger forcing cones.

you can "tighten up" your cylinder "slop" by taking the advise of lowegan over on the rugerforum.net, or just live with the cylinder play. sending the gun back to ruger will get you nowhere since it appears your revolver is within ruger specifications and tolerances.

luck,

murf
 
Sorry, it turned out that I overreacted concerning some kind of sloppiness of my Ruger's cylinder. In my obviously wrong memory the differences between the big caliber revolvers I had in hands and my Ruger were bigger. And as mentioned I also compared it with my other Revolver (.22 LR - Harrington & Richardson) which actually has a nominal cylinder play. On Saturday I went to one of my favorite retailers and we made a comparison with some other .357 Revolvers (S&W 686, Colt Python, Ruger GP100). It seemed, the Blackhawk had a little bit a bigger play but the – real or imagined - differences were absolutely minimal. The retailer said, the extremely little play of the H&R could come from another way of manufacturing of small calibers.

What ever; as you can imagine I am very happy that everything is all right with my ruger. I just got it and am looking forward to finally shooting it.

Pardon my edge of hysteria and thank you for your answers
 
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