Mauser 8mm Confusion

jr OR ir mostly use .318" bullets.

The S indicates it uses .323" bullets... BUT

You won't know for sure until you "slug" the bore of YOUR rifles bbl..!

DM

Wider bullet? Somebody thought they were still making .318s in Czechoslovakia in 1924. Wrong, you are fine with JS designated ammo.

Yes, somewhat covered above. You will only run into a .318 bore 8x57 in the Gew 98 types (rare) and the Turk 93 converted to 8x57 (also rare), Gew 88, some misc. German special models from pre-WWI, and some converted early actions and foreign rifles. Even those were generally considered safe with S bore ammunition by the countries that fielded them as substitute standard or rear echelon weapons.

Any early (pre-WWII) 8mm sporting rifle should be slugged, as many of these retained the .318 bore well after conversion of the military's rifles.

And really older rifles can be chambered for 8x56.
Don't ask how I know this.

AFS

This confusion is exactly why I have never wanted one. Not that I’ve had that many opportunities to buy one, but a 7mm always appealed to me.
Greg

It's a similar thing with factory PPU/Privi ammunition. The "8x57mm Mauser" is weaker than the "8x57IS" and I believe the former also uses the smaller diameter .318" bullet.

I can hit centre of target at 100m using 8x57IS with lowest sight elevation, but I need to set it to 300m for 8x57mm Mauser to hit the same point of impact, that's just how much weaker this round is.

MI2600 said:

Also, I have never heard of a larger bullet being designated as "wider". But, if it is on the internet, it has to be correct...NOT!

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.323" is definitely "wider" than .318"...

DM

Would a .323 even chamber in a .318 rifle? If it did would the results be disastrous?

Yes and maybe
When the Germans converted 7.9x57J to 7.92x57JS they ran in a reamer to enlarge the chamber neck, avoiding dangerous "bullet pinch", and taper the throat to gradually swage the "wider" bullets down. Barrel groove diameter was not changed, that would have been an expensive "freshing out" or rebarreling process on obsolete guns not going to frontschwein anyhow.

Maybe Slamfire has scary pictures to go along with the demolished Springfields.

The changeover came with the spire shaped bulled replacing the round nosed bullet. No M98 type rifles were manufactured with .318,as a standard military round.

Problems might occur when firing modern 8mm mauser ammo through an old , unreamed German 88 commission rifle. when reamed a large S was struck atop the reciver.

the 30-06 started as a round nosed bullet, the 30-'03 Springfeild.

Also to avoid legal problems with guns blowing up, I have read somewhere, that American ammo manufacturers downloaded the modern loadings of the 8mmM(7.92x57)

My understanding is that all German service rifles from the 1888 Commission Rifle up were rebarreled to .323 in 1905. This does not apply to German factory-built hunting rifles. German hunters knew the difference between 7.92x57J (.318) and 7.92x57JS (.323) and, in Germany, the two are considered totally different rounds.

So, Caribou, they didn't make any '98s from 1898 until 1904/5 when the S bore came out?
I think they did.

Mustanger, MY understanding is that they touched up the chambers of the old guns. Rebarreling a '98 would have been expensive, rebarreling an '88 with its jacketed barrel would have been prohibitively expensive and it would still be an obsolete design.

Consider the Springfield.
1903 roundnose bullet, ramrod bayonet.
1905 roundnose bullet, knife bayonet, Teddy didn't like the ramrod sticker.
1906 spitzer bullet, maybe the Frogs and Krauts knew something.
Not one but two upgrades but I think most rifles on hand or in production were brought all the way up to 1906 spec. 1905s are extremely scarce.
Ammo change supported by setting barrel back two turns and rechambering with shorter neck and throat. More work than the Germans went to but less than a new barrel.

Jim Watson said:

MY understanding is that they touched up the chambers of the old guns. Rebarreling a '98 would have been expensive, rebarreling an '88 with its jacketed barrel would have been prohibitively expensive and it would still be an obsolete design.

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I'd have to check the case dimensions between the J and JS versions, but to go from .318 to .323 without rebarreling, they'd have had to re-bore/re-rifle the existing barrels. This seems to make more sense with the '88's, which I've heard were also updated to feed with stripper clips. However, if the Germans knew they were going to 8x57JS as standard, with all rifles ordered after a certain date in 1905 in that spec, they could've ordered however many extra JS barrels as part of the package.

I do have a Gewehr 88 (the "Commission" rifle) originally designed for the .318 in diameter bullet. It is stamped with a large and conspicuous "S" on top of the barrel to show it has been 'altered' to fire the later .323 in diameter bullet. Supposedly - according to the bulk of articles I've read on the subject, the alteration was something on the chamber and leade, as mentioned by Mr. Watson.

I do know I have fired my own reloads with .323 in bullets (196-200 grain) at the posted velocitiy of 2800 (and change) from the near thirty inch barrel. Shots landed in the expected locations, cases, rifle and shooter survived without comment.

Air Force Shooter. I have a couple of Mannlicher '95 (push-pull) rifles in 8x56mmR. .329 in grove diameter. Not as bad as a dangerous game gun, but kicks like a mule.

AirForceShooter said:

And really older rifles can be chambered for 8x56.
Don't ask how I know this.

AFS

Click to expand...

But are they Mausers?

Jim Watson said:

So, Caribou, they didn't make any '98s from 1898 until 1904/5 when the S bore came out?
I think they did.

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Your quite right, I should have noted that no 88s were originaly manufactured using the JS cartridge, all started life with a .318 bore.

8x56R was chambered in the Austrian and Hungarian M95 Manlicher straight pull. Bullet diameter was .329". Some of them that were captured were re chamber to 8x57 and issued as M95M but these are rare. Originally chambered in 8x50R they were upgraded to 8x56R and a large S was stamped on the chamber. The carbines that were widely available back in the 90s were in great shape and accurate but they really kicked.

Yes and there was the Hungarian 35M in 8x56R which was transmogrified to the 98/40 under German management. 8x57 barrel, flush magazine, stripper clip, '98 bayonet lug, and Mauserish stock shape (still two piece though.) Apparently it was simple enough to change all that but not worth retooling for real Mauser actions. Probably didn't matter much to the troops except a little longer reach to the bolt handle.

Jim Watson said:

But are they Mausers?

Click to expand...

Sure is

AFS