+P vs the lighter short barrel .357 loads

becket said:

Is there really a benefit using the (lighter?) short barrel .357 loads, over .38 +P? Does the gun firing short barrel .357 retain enough of the magnum’s added velocity and energy to make a noticeable difference over +P in 2”-3” barrels?

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In my experience it does. But the muzzle blast and flash is unpleasant.

I don’t shoot 357s shorter than 3” for this reason. There are more efficient guns.

.357 , light or otherwise , from a 2” barrel never made sense to me.
Why water down .357 and still have to carry around the additional cylinder size?

I carry a LCR .357 loaded with ARX 38 Special 77 grain giving about 1050fps out of that 1-7/8" barrel. There is a ARX .357 86 grain ammo available that looks to offer an additional 450fps. I've been contemplating buying a box or two to see if the muzzle blast would be at acceptable levels or not. At 1500 fps that would be a very respectable velocity.

WheelGunMan said:

I carry a LCR .357 loaded with ARX 38 Special 77 grain giving about 1050fps out of that 1-7/8" barrel. There is a ARX .357 86 grain ammo available that looks to offer an additional 450fps. I've been contemplating buying a box or two to see if the muzzle blast would be at acceptable levels or not. At 1500 fps that would be a very respectable velocity.

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Oh so you are the guy buying up all the 77gr ARX...

ancientnoob said:

Oh so you are the guy buying up all the 77gr ARX...

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Guilty as charged!

A benefit for what purpose? If you're talking about defensive loads, just look at the Lucky Gunner ballistic tests which show data for .38 +P and .357 "short barrel" loads in 2" guns. There is a difference in the gel results, and that's about all we have for consensus on "benefits" for that purpose.

For example, look at the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. "short barrel" 38 Spc. +P. The penetration averages a little over 13 inches, but the expansion is poor.
Now look at the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. "short barrel" .357 Magnum. The penetration averages 13", but the expansion is very good.
The difference is in the velocity. 821 fps for .38 Spc. vs. 1069 fps for .357 Magnum.

Here's another comparison from the LG test. The BB 125 gr Barnes "low flash short barrel load" averaged 1144fps with penetration of 13.9 inches. Expansion was good on 4 out of 5 bullets and one bullet failed to expand. There's no direct comparison for .38 Special +P because those Barnes bullets require more velocity for dependable expansion. But let's compare a successful 125 gr. load. The best performing 125 grain .38+P from a 2" barrel in the test was the Remington Golden Saber. It averaged 877 fps, penetrated 13.9" and had good expansion. So based on this comparison, we'd have to say that "it depends." You could match or even better the performance of some "low flash short barrel" .357 Magnum using some .38 Sp. +P ammo, but it depends on the specific ammo used. We can see that "low flash" .357 still went 267 fps faster than .38+P and that extra velocity will allow some bullets to perform better. But if a bullet is used that isn't optimized for the purpose, there may be little or no benefit.

Your question didn't ask about non-"short-barrel" ammo in a short barrel. While short barrels do reduce the performance of .357 Magnum significantly, it should be understood that .357 Magnum ballistic performance is still very far ahead of .38 Special +P in a short barrel. The fastest .38 125 gr. load from a 2" barrel LG tested was 877 fps. The fastest 125 gr. .357 load from a 2" barrel was 1425 fps. .357 Magnum from a short barrel is still A LOT faster than .38 Special +P.

But more to your question, the "short-barrel" loads are intended to reduce flash and muzzle blast and improve the performance in ways that chronographs and gel blocks don't test. Those benefits may or may not be realized subjectively, and they may or may not result in good gel test results.

I can tell you from my experience developing loads and working with snub nosed revolvers for about a year, I've concluded that it's not worth it at all. The benefits of a longer barrel are numerous and there are no drawbacks. Short barrels (less than 3") are really a handicap in more ways than ballistic, and they offer no real benefits.

labnoti said:

But more to your question, the "short-barrel" loads are intended to reduce flash and muzzle blast and improve the performance in ways that chronographs and gel blocks don't test. Those benefits may or may not be realized subjectively, and they may or may not result in good gel test results.

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Excellent statement. I believe in the biggest through hole theory of lethality. That is the bullet that makes the biggest through hole is the most lethal bullet. If ballistic gel is a true test simulation of human tissue, than something that makes a bigger through hole in ballistic gelatin is of added value. If it does not, then it is of little to no value.

A plus P 38 special is going to loose velocity when fired in a snubbie just like a 357 magnums will. Regardless of barrel length a 357 magnums will have quite a bit more velocity than a 38spcl

Lucky gunner tests show the Federal micro 38+P 130 grain HST penetrate 13 inches and expand consistently to @ .73 from a two inch barrel if I remember correctly. I didn't see it on that particular Lucky Gunner video. It seems like that would be enough and about as much as you're going to get out of a 38+P shooting out of a 2" barrel. The velocity was @817-820fps if my memory serves me well.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/6/6/testing-the-38-special-cartridge/

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/7/27/testing-the-357-mag-cartridge/

Tests using 10% organic gel and not the oft criticized synthetic stuff.

Many variables come into play with this stuff. I'd probably look at these and the Lucky Gunner tests and pick a load that does well in both.

becket said:

... as I and prob a majority of older members here have seen a metric ton of “latest and greatest” over the decades.

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If you've been around that long, why aren't you handloading everything yourself?

Just remember, a hit with anything trumps a miss with anything else.

I'm happy shooting 38 Special ammunition from my 2" J-frames. Recoil is not objectionable and I can hit what I am aiming at.

My general 357 Magnum load is a 158 SWC at about 950-1000 fps from a 4" barrel. It is comfortable to shoot from my 3" Model 60. I'm not happy shooting them in a 2" Model 60.

I'll leave the full powered 357 Magnum loads for the longer barreled revolvers.

Of course, there are some folks with better tolerance to great recoil than I have and can shoot the real hot stuff in light, short barreled guns. More power to them.