Never Seen This Happen Before

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TheotherMikeG

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Trying out some new ammo in the Ruger MPR this morning and got a case stuck in the chamber. I was able to free the stuck bolt carrier but couldn't understand why the extractor wouldn't pull the case out. Once home, I pushed it out from the muzzle end and found this...
IMG_1049_zpskpf5nlra.jpg
It appears that the extractor just ripped off a chunk of the rim. Also, the primer seems to have backed out a little bit. I'm tending to think that it's just a random qc issue with the ammunition as opposed to something mechanical, but I'm opening it up to the forum. Have any of you experienced this before? What do y'all think?
 
High pressure sticks the brass in the chamber, while the extractor is trying to remove it. Rim damage is the results.
What was the condition of the chamber at time of firing? Was it the first round fired?

Adjustable gas block?

It was the 11th round fired. Last week I took out a clean gun and fired 60 rounds of Wolf 55gr Polyformance. I'm sorry, I don't believe that there's an adjustable gas block but I'm not sure.

Reloads or factory?

Factory. Wolf Gold 55gr
 
A good cleaning with a chamber brush and solvent , may help the Wolf ammo? The solvent needs to remove plastic. OR...

Use a chamber brush to give the rifle a good cleaning and try different ammo. If the new ammo works ok, then its a Wolf problem.

On firing , a brass case will spring back more then steel when the pressure drops. Brass should extract better then coated steel.
 
My thoughts exactly, but I went through 500 rounds of the Poly without a hiccup. I'm going to give it a good clean and go back out with a couple different brands next week and see how it goes. Thanks for the help!
i think @243winxb might be on the right track.
The poly might have caused sticking on the brass case, as the brass may have actually expanded to fill the chamber a little better and held as the bolt started to open. All just theory, but it would be my guess, specially if thr chamber got hot.
 
Polyformance is a coating that makes the steel cartridge cases feed and eject easily and prevents corrosion. It's a replacement for the old lacquer coated steel cases.

Could be the coating causing the sticking.

I doubt the coating is causing the case to stick. I believe polyformance is a teflon or teflon/wax based coating, it is a dry film lubricant added to the outside of the case to break the friction between the case and chamber and not increase it. If the case stuck, it is due to over pressure conditions, not a lubricant.

Notice that Wolf calls the stuff a polymer and has stopped calling it a lubricant. This is what Wolf used to say:

Superior Reliability: The application of the polymer creates a precision uniform coating around the casing. It produces a bullet with persistent, uncompromising, stable dimensions thus leading to smooth reliable extractions.

Better Functioning: The superior lubricity improvement eases wear in gun chambers and alleviates excessive operational and maintenance issues associated with rapid firing. The development of this polymer represents a break-through in the field of tribology, and incorporates the most recent chemistry in terms of lubricity improving molecules.

This is what they say now:

Polyformance ammunition will not disappoint! Wolf coats all of their ammunition with a polymer coating to ensure smooth feeding and extraction putting the shooters mind at ease with less jamming. The coating on the ammunition allows for the ammunition to have a lengthier long term shortage time in comparison to different manufacturers

I am certain they have stopped alluding to Polyformance as a lubricant because the the extreme reaction they got from Hatcherites who understand greases and oils will "increase bolt thrust". Hatcherites have real limitations:. Firstly to them, lubrication is not a principle, lubrication is greases and oils. For example, they don't recognize the wax coating that Pedersen put on his cartridges is a lubricant, because to them, lubrication is greases and oils and waxes are not greases and oils. Therefore to a Hatcherite, coating a case with teflon does not increase bolt thrust because telfon is not a grease or oil and therefore is not a lubricant. Hatcherities also don't know that oil and grease are polymers. So calling a dry film lubricant a polymer, instead of a lubricant, won't cause angry reactions from Hatcherites. They can't make the connection.
 
Slamfire, please school me on:


It is a particular rant of mine, perhaps to the level of being pathology. But I do hate being told lies, and being forced to believe a lie, so, there is my problem: And this is a lie that has lasted for over a century, and is core to the belief systems of the shooting society.

As I said in this post Polished chambers:

I am going to call Hatcherism the belief that

Cartridges should never be greased or oiled, and the bullets should never be greased. Grease on the cartridge or in the chamber creates excessive and hazardous pressure. It operates to reduce the size of the chamber and thus increases the density of loading and the pressure.

These are Townsend Whelen’s words; General Hatcher did not come up with this belief system , it is in fact based on a data set created by then Major Townsend Whelen, but Hatcher is the “St Paul” of this religion. Without him this would have faded away and at best, would have been a historical curiosity.

I addressed the history in this thread: "Rust" Inside Brass Rifle Cases

With this post:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rust-inside-brass-rifle-cases.846054/#post-11018923
 
As steel cases do not spring back like brass, they are loaded to lower pressures. Steel cases are loaded to lower pressure so they don't expand as much as brass cases. If steel cases did expand as much as brass, they would stick in the chamber.

Because steel cases do not expand add much as brass, steel cases do not seal the chamber as tightly. Gas leaks past the neck and into the chamber leaving carbon deposits. When brass cased ammo is fired without first cleaning the chamber, the cases sometimes get stuck.
 
Slamfire, great info.

Polytetrafiuoroethylene is a polymer known in the trade as Teflon.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2972947?oq=polymer+coated+rifle++cartridge

After reading parts of the patent, high pressure would be the cause.


Hatcherites- Followers of Hatcher's Notebook.

Great reference! It shows that nothing is new under the sun, sintered telfon coatings go way back.

This is from the patent:

It has been recent practice to lubricate ammunition for aircraft mounted 20 mm. automatic rapid fire guns with oil or grease to obtain improved operation of the gun through decrease in jamming and icing. While the measure has been a success from the standpoint of lubrication, it has brought with it serious maintenance troubles. A lubricating coating of oil or grease on the cartridge case provides a medium for the pick-up and retention of dust, deposits from blown-back gases, sand and moisture. Dust and sand adhering to the cartridge case may cause abrasion and jamming of the gun and feeder mechanism and excessive wear of the gun barrel. Accumulated dispersed or emulsified water on the cartridge case sometimes thickened rapidly in cold weather and invited icing troubles. A high viscosity oil is used for lubrication of the cartridges in order to avoid rapid drainage. This oil through blow-back accumulates in the gun mechanism where it blends with the low viscosity oil used for lubrication of the gun mechanism to produce a mixed oil of undesirably higher viscosity from which operational difficulties develop at low temperatures. A further disadvantage is that oil or grease must be applied to ammunition at a time as close to firing as possible because of difficulties arising from draining and evaporation of oil, uneven distribution of grease and accumulation of dust and water on the oiled or greased surface. While oiling of ammunition has been satisfactory in some respects, the time and labor required to lubricate ammunition just after belting prior to mounting in the plane is a military drawback. Wax coating of ammunition is only partially successful due to plastic flow of wax and adhesion between cartridges during storage prior to belting and to accumulation of dirt. The problem of coating and storing waxed ammunition has always been a nuisance and at times has proved costly. Up to the present no wholly satisfactory solution to the problem of lubricating ammunition has been found.

The 20mm anti aircraft gun mentioned in the patent is this one, or rather, this is one of a huge class of 20mm automatic cannons:

w0cxiVk.jpg

They are all over the forward deck of this battleship

JjqJ8oQ.jpg

Think of this, General Hatcher knew of these things, his Ordnance Department made about 150,000 of them for the Army, Army Air Corp, this is one type used in aircraft:

9TkFcWD.jpg

And Hatcher knew the things used greased ammunition! Yet Hatcher is running around claiming that greased or oiled ammunition dangerously increases bolt thrust. Is that not irrational? Hatcher knew, and yet, today's Hatcherites are militantly ignorant of these things. I believe it is due to their militant irrationality.

From reading Chinn's Machine Gun book series, post WW2 the Defense Department wanted to get rid of the grease out of the Oerlikon mechanism. The user had to pre grease cartridges, and that was time consuming and a mess, especially if dirt got on the cartridges. So post war testing consisted of a number of paths. One was fluted chambers, and I don't know why they did not pursue that avenue. Another was using teflon coatings on cartridges. The Navy test document I have says the highest rates of fire were obtained with oiled teflon coated cartridges. What the Navy/Air Force finally did, was to add an oiler to their Oerlikons, and that configuration was used up to the Vietnam War.

A Bullseye Pistol bud of mine was a more or less a river pirate in Vietnam. He and his Army Pirate buds were assigned duty on an armored barge and they got tired of accepting rounds from the local unfriendlies, so they stole an Oerlikon and crates of 20mm ammunition from an Air Force Base!. Once bolted to the deck of their armored barge, that Oerlikon helped them win hearts and minds. Bud said, they would go around the bend, take a round from a wooded area, and they would light up the whole damn area up with that Oerlikon. And after the barrage, all would be peace and quiet! His Oerlikon used an oiler.

The knowledge of this period is largely forgotten in the literature found in the in print community, and I believe it is deliberate, but then, it could be that the leaders of our society are not the experts they pretend to be.
 
It appears to me that a retarded powder charge may be to blame because the extractor was trying to extract while there was still pressure in the case, as evidenced by the broken rim and partially backed-out primer that wasn't flattened from normal pressures.
 
It is a particular rant of mine, perhaps to the level of being pathology. But I do hate being told lies, and being forced to believe a lie, so, there is my problem: And this is a lie that has lasted for over a century, and is core to the belief systems of the shooting society.

As I said in this post Polished chambers:



I addressed the history in this thread: "Rust" Inside Brass Rifle Cases

With this post:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rust-inside-brass-rifle-cases.846054/#post-11018923

Thank you for the lesson, sir, I now understand.
 
The primer seems to have backed out some, HIGH PRESSURE ???, dirty chamber ???, those steel cases are coated with a varnish like coating that could melt from heat and seize in the chamber ??? hdbiker
 
MPRs gas systems are rifle length non adjustable. Id be surprised if that was over gassed enough to rip rims off.

ive had other semis rip rims off cases, but not an AR...not yet anyway. So far
its usually caused by a rough/rusty chamber
Or, brass that does not have the proper hardness gradient....

A backed out primer is also indicative of improper case hardness.
 
This video is not 100% correct IMO but the actions in this video are one way for things to happen. The case head isn’t always in contact with the bolt face upon ignition (likely more often not) but it can be.

 
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