Best way to anneal?

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Strat Rider said:
On the Tempilaq, I believe that making a stripe up the side of the case is best as you will be able to tell exactly how far down the case the heat goes and then control that.
I too would like to know of a better (cheaper) source for the salt bath materials can be found but also believe that most of the hand times methods I've seen are lacking in accuracy.
Automation of the salt bath process is something that is on my list to tinker with.
(hint to jmorris :) - a unit to dunk it and then lift and eject it like a rifle bolt is currently my thought process)
Click to expand...

I do agree that the hand-time method for flame annealing is lacking in accuracy. I don't believe the hand-time in the slat-bath is an issue, since it only gets as hot as the bath. The bath is set to the target temp for the brass. A longer time will not cause the brass IN the bath to get any hotter, more time will only cause the heat to migrate a little farther down the case. Compare this to the flame method - with a constant flame, the only thing controlling the temp is the time in the flame.
 
Both time and temperature are factors. A low(er) temperature for a long enough time can ruin a case by annealing the entire case just as a high temperature in a shorter time frame can ruin the neck even before the heat could migrate to the base and anneal it.

This is a good read on the subject.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
 
Hi everybody.

I don’t post very often, because most of the time I feel like I belong at the children’s table. That written, I gave salt bath annealing a crack. As a former chemist the process appealed to me. The potential advantages as I saw them were: 1.) stable temp control. 2.) less personal hazard/fire hazard with no open flame. 3.) ease of cleanup and setup. 4.) batch to batch consistency. 5.) cost.

1.) The temp varies. As the job progresses, I observed the temperature drop. This is most likely due to the brass cooling the salt, but it could also be due to the thermocouple not holding a stable temp.
2.) The fumes and vapors—even with my garage doors open—were strong. I view this as potentially way more dangerous than an open flame on a device such as a Bench Source. If I accidentally bump it, the molten salt is perhaps a more dangerous fire hazard than the controlled open flame of a torch.
3.) After the salt cooled, I waited too long (1 day) to remove it from the pot. What I found is the salt had done what hygroscopic compounds want to do. There was water pooling on top of the salt. I melted the salt for the next round, and upon cooling I could not remove the salt puck from the pot as was described by the mfgr. Cleanup is a concern with salt scattered around my workbench in the garage. I wonder if long-term use will result in some damage to my garage workspace.
4.) Even when I was carefully transferring the case to the water bath, I could see that I was losing a little salt over the course of a single run of 50 cases. I noticed this as the annealing line on the case had moved closer to the case mouth as I progressed. I had to stop and remove the shell holder to add a little more salt to the pot before I resumed. This obviously changed the temp and the depth of the salt bath. While I was hoping for batch to batch consistency, my intra-batch consistency was not optimal.
5.) Buy once, cry once. I should have spent the money on proven, quality equipment like a Bench Source the first time. Annealing brass has gotten more expensive, because I tried saving money.

I hope this comment from the children’s table helps one or more of you out there.

-Travis
 
I do the Propane tank Socket on a Revolv rechargeable hand drill, LIghts off, till I see shell Glow, drop on a Wetted Towel.
I used Templique to get a time that is needed, and then count to what it is, then drop on the Towel.
I always make sure the primer is out of the shell. A used primer can still cause injury, lets the heat out through the Bottom.

Barman54
Out
 
When you say "best" people read that differently. Some people think "what's the most controlled and repeatable way" others, "what's the not-spending-$1400 way". I use an emergency candle, 9 bucks for a pack of 12; it sucks though because it's time consuming. I'd much rather have an AMP Mk2 with the AZTEC.
 
For myself the best way was to stop annealing entirely.
My hold is more consistent as well as groups are tighter and more consistent.
J
 
Since my earlier post, I used a windfall to buy an AMP Mark II. It’s great. No flame and excellent consistency. I cite annealing fire formed Ackley Improved cases as justification for the expense. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
 
JimKirk said:
I just use a deep well socket that the cartridge brass will fit into ... I attach the socket to a cordless drill and then use a small propane torch to turn the shoulder and neck a faint dull orange ... then I drop.in a bucket of water( not necessary but just habit)..... Oh I turn the drill at a slow speed and direct the flame up at the shoulder and neck ... You don't want the discolor to go but just a tad below the body outer shoulder contact area ....

If you need .... practice on some bad brass to get the "hang" of getting the color and area right before moving on to your good brass .....

Easier to see the color in a somewhat darker room ....
Click to expand...

Brass anneals at slightly less than 700 degrees F, far below the red spectrum. This is from a metallurgist, not just a number I picked out of the air. When the neck turns blue it's soft again.
 
AFDoc said:
Hi everybody.

I don’t post very often, because most of the time I feel like I belong at the children’s table. That written, I gave salt bath annealing a crack. As a former chemist the process appealed to me. The potential advantages as I saw them were: 1.) stable temp control. 2.) less personal hazard/fire hazard with no open flame. 3.) ease of cleanup and setup. 4.) batch to batch consistency. 5.) cost.

1.) The temp varies. As the job progresses, I observed the temperature drop. This is most likely due to the brass cooling the salt, but it could also be due to the thermocouple not holding a stable temp.
2.) The fumes and vapors—even with my garage doors open—were strong. I view this as potentially way more dangerous than an open flame on a device such as a Bench Source. If I accidentally bump it, the molten salt is perhaps a more dangerous fire hazard than the controlled open flame of a torch.
3.) After the salt cooled, I waited too long (1 day) to remove it from the pot. What I found is the salt had done what hygroscopic compounds want to do. There was water pooling on top of the salt. I melted the salt for the next round, and upon cooling I could not remove the salt puck from the pot as was described by the mfgr. Cleanup is a concern with salt scattered around my workbench in the garage. I wonder if long-term use will result in some damage to my garage workspace.
4.) Even when I was carefully transferring the case to the water bath, I could see that I was losing a little salt over the course of a single run of 50 cases. I noticed this as the annealing line on the case had moved closer to the case mouth as I progressed. I had to stop and remove the shell holder to add a little more salt to the pot before I resumed. This obviously changed the temp and the depth of the salt bath. While I was hoping for batch to batch consistency, my intra-batch consistency was not optimal.
5.) Buy once, cry once. I should have spent the money on proven, quality equipment like a Bench Source the first time. Annealing brass has gotten more expensive, because I tried saving money.

I hope this comment from the children’s table helps one or more of you out there.

-Travis
Click to expand...


Thank you for taking the time to give this detailed run down of your hands on experience.
Even though I switched to an AMP this year, I still found it very informative and insightful.
We are always being asked about "this & that" by fellow loaders.
I think others will find your experience and opinions helpful.

I have an acquaintance at work that has asked me about the salt bath.
He said he is thinking about giving it a try.
I am going to send him a link to this.
.
 
JimKirk said:
I just use a deep well socket that the cartridge brass will fit into ... I attach the socket to a cordless drill and then use a small propane torch to turn the shoulder and neck a faint dull orange ... then I drop.in a bucket of water( not necessary but just habit)..... Oh I turn the drill at a slow speed and direct the flame up at the shoulder and neck ... You don't want the discolor to go but just a tad below the body outer shoulder contact area ....

If you need .... practice on some bad brass to get the "hang" of getting the color and area right before moving on to your good brass .....

Easier to see the color in a somewhat darker room ....
Click to expand...
Ditto for me also. Annealing is not rocket science but a necessary step for prolonging brass life. I normally get in a rhyme and count to 4, dump case and insert another one. this has worked for years and have gotten as much as 6 or 8 firings from 30-06 and 300 Win mag in bolt guns. My Rem game master 760 pump is another story.
 
So exactly how often should I anneal? I am going to practice on some junk brass and see how they turn out.
 
If one can anneal consistently (the goal of the AMP), anneal every firing before sizing. I'd anneal every firing with a Giraud or Annealeez, too, but would probably go once every two or three firings if using one of the hand-held methods.
 
I think it’s worth my time. I anneal 223 only and every time I reload them. My split necks have gone way way down.

I liked everything about the Annealeez except the price. So, I watched a few You Tube videos on home made Annealeez setups. The thing was stupid cheap and works great. It was a fun afternoon project.

It’s probably not gonna win any beauty contests. Maybe in the cheap and easy category.

20190105_102221[176].jpg
 
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After seeing what my money bought, I wished I had made my own. It would have been fun, it would have been mine.
It isn't chintsy, just, not what I had envisioned.
I like my Annealeez. It works very well. But with the same parts I feel like could have done a bit better, without any wheel changes for larger cases. (First ThreeD printer project perhaps?)

It is so easy to use, however, I treat it as a final drying step in my cycle for small rifle brass. Every time a case gets sized, it gets annealed first.

It is a good machine.
 
Okay guys have another question on this. I have some 3-4 fired LC brass that wasn't run hot and noticed on some of them the bullet seats very loose and some hard. Could this be an annealing issue? Say the cases need annealed?
 
Stand the brass up in 1" of water. Take propane torch to opposite sides ( about 2 seconds each) then use torch tip to knock it over. The fastest way I know.
 
Skgreen said:
Thought about annealing my 223, but, for now, I'm usually able to get 1k of mixed-date unprocessed LC for about 6 cents a piece.
(Do I like processing it? Not anymore than anyone else does, but it's not THAT big a chore.)

Would reeeeeeeeeeally love one of those annealeez rigs, but for my particular want/needs/abilities, and considering that 223 is the ONLY bottleneck cartridge I'm currently shooting, the initial outlay of $$$ just doesn't add up.

Quite certain that someday, when I get bored with 223, I'll move on to a caliber where the cost of brass/annealing makes more sense.

That day just hasn't got here yet! :D
Click to expand...
I cheated and stole my wife's brulee torch. Rechargeable butane, pin-point flame, simple on/off trigger, and plenty hot enough for case necks.
upload_2021-2-11_11-36-36.jpeg
 
No, I think that's been the ballpark price since before I bought mine.

I'll confess, though, that I graduated to an AMP since the post you quoted. I shoot a lot of Ackley Improved cartridges so wanted to get the most consistency possible. Today I might say the AMP is the "best," but it may be overkill for most. I continue to think the Annealeez is the best bang for the buck.
 
JimKirk said:
I just use a deep well socket that the cartridge brass will fit into ... I attach the socket to a cordless drill and then use a small propane torch to turn the shoulder and neck a faint dull orange ... then I drop.in a bucket of water( not necessary but just habit)..... Oh I turn the drill at a slow speed and direct the flame up at the shoulder and neck ... You don't want the discolor to go but just a tad below the body outer shoulder contact area ....

If you need .... practice on some bad brass to get the "hang" of getting the color and area right before moving on to your good brass .....

Easier to see the color in a somewhat darker room ....
Click to expand...

Not much to it. The object is to soften the brass - return ductility. The spinning socket works well. Leave the torch in place and bring the spinning socket to it. You don't even have to chuck it in a drill if you have a socket extension. I would recommend getting some tempilstik from a hardware or industrial supply and use that until you get used to it.

https://markal.com/products/tempilstik

Start at the low end and feel your way into the process. Pretty easy.
 
Axis II said:
I have watched several videos and read several threads and for some reason this just scares me and turns me off. I have no clue who is right and who is wrong.
Anyone have any tips for annealing 223/5.56? Only fired in a bolt action if that makes a difference.
Click to expand...
My suggestion would be to try a few of the less expensive methods and see what works for you. Most of my 223 and even 308 brass is once fired GI stuff and I normally discard after 5 loadings. After watching countless videos and before online days I tried a few methods, the most recent being induction heating. It's like cooking a steak where you cross a fine line between excellent and overdone. In my case there wasn't much if any real gain to be had so I just stopped pursuing it but for others there is a good enough gain to make it worthwhile. Again, my advice is try several methods, find what works for you and then run with it. Be it induction or using a torch flame with a suitable gas it becomes a matter of, as mentioned, dwell time verse heat.

Best of Luck
Ron
 
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