Active shooter response

Folks, I don’t know. This is very situationally dependent. If an active shooter was in the hallway of my church on a Sunday morning i would feel like a coward for life if I ran the opposite direction.

“No one has greater love than this, that someone would lay down his life for his friends.“

The problem posed is that , should another “sheepdog” or cop kill me in the act of so doing, they would live with guilt the rest of their lives.

If that were to happen, I pray that this post would be unearthed by the media and they know that if I die because I was shot by a friendly while trying to stop an active shooter, I am in a better place now and my death was worth it to me and they absolutely acted on the best information they had at the time.

The truest American heroes of the last several years to me are the two men that worked together to engage the Sutherland Springs Church shooter. The hero in this case was a barefooted man carrying an AR15 firing into a church parking lot - not exactly looking like a cop. As he told Crowder, “every time I heard a shot I knew someone that I knew was dying.” He surely would have laid down his life in the act of trying to stop the shooter.

Call me a coward, I do not care, as the police have no duty to protect members of the public neither do I. I will cover my exit from the danger zone and endeavor to be a good witness if necessary.

Doc7 said:

Folks, I don’t know. This is very situationally dependent. If an active shooter was in the hallway of my church on a Sunday morning i would feel like a coward for life if I ran the opposite direction.

“No one has greater love than this, that someone would lay down his life for his friends.“

The problem posed is that , should another “sheepdog” or cop kill me in the act of so doing, they would live with guilt the rest of their lives.

If that were to happen, I pray that this post would be unearthed by the media and they know that if I die because I was shot by a friendly while trying to stop an active shooter, I am in a better place now and my death was worth it to me and they absolutely acted on the best information they had at the time.

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There are situations where a man cannot with honor back away, or he may simply be trapped in circumstances where a response is forced. A trained professional has to advise you to back away whenever possible, but recognize that if it's your church or your school with your child in there somewhere in eminent jeopardy you may not in conscience be able to take that course.

By understanding what's likely to be going on in the mind of the first policemen responding to the situation and how little information he has, and how much of it is likely to be contradictory or wrong, should you decide to act, knowing these things could contribute to your chances of survival.

Part of your decision on whether to respond should also be predicated upon the distinct possibility that should you decide to run to the sound of the shots you could very well make things worse instead of better.

The hardest thing to let go of is that somehow a policeman or anyone else is going to look at you and assume that you're a good man with good intentions. For a responder, the belief that evil has a recognizable face is a good way to die in a hurry.

Since the impetus of this thread has been citizen response, one thing that hasn't been emphasized enough is how deeply a police officer is constrained in these situations. He doesn't have the freedom of a soldier in a combat zone who will in many situations assume an armed combatant in front of him, not wearing his uniform, is a legitimate target. Simply facing a person with a gun in hand doesn't automatically convey the right to shoot to a law officer, but being that person in front of the law officer in such a charged situation is not a place you want to find yourself in. The situation is too rife for too much to go wrong.

Think of this as well, you may be willing to take the risk of being killed in a case of mistaken identity, but consider what you have just done to the life of a frightened officer who later learns he shot a foolish citizen.

While reading through this thread a few quick thoughts came to mind. First, anyone choosing to go after an active shooter is taking the huge risk of being shot by either the shooter, other armed citizens, or responding law enforcement. I think everyone agrees with this. However, some will choose to accept that risk no matter how likely it is they will be misidentified and shot. Much will depend on the setting and location.

I think the correct choice is if you're response will make things more chaotic, and put more people at risk then you should not engage. If you can end things more quickly without adding to the chaos then do what you can. If you're with your family then try to get them out.

Secondly, I don't think the type of weapon you're carrying, your age, personal appearance, clothing, or anything else is going to make anyone think you're a good guy with a gun vs a bad guy with a gun. As others have pointed out, nowadays even a law enforcement uniform isn't a guarantee you're a good guy.

It seems the majority response here is to simply run the other way and leave the victims to their plight. I may be old, but I find this response rather sad - and hypocritical. I'm sure most members here are 2A advocates who encourage citizens to be armed, but given these responses I have to wonder why...

Hale said:

It seems the majority response here is to simply run the other way and leave the victims to their plight.

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If you can keep your head about you enough to help others who are in panic mode find a way out of the area, then take some of the potential victims with you. You don't have to engage a shooter to save lives.

I don't think anyone is saying to never engage an active shooter, but that your choice to do so needs to be tempered with some consideration for the risks and consequences of doing so. More often than not, leaving the area is the best course. Getting good information as you go, so that you can inform incoming LE officers (you're an ex-LEO, so you should be a trained observer, right?), and helping others get out are good and useful things to do.

The government (FBI/DHS) training on Run, Hide, Fight is fairly reasonable. If you can clear the area safely, do so. If you can't, then conceal yourself and set up an ambush. (I prefer to combine Hide and Fight into "Stage an Ambush").

A good piece of advice I recently saw: If you decide to barricade yourself into a room, don't just pile furniture in front of the door, run it to the opposite wall to really wedge the door shut.

Finally: You're new here, so you may not be aware that this forum and the legal forum are much more strictly moderated than other areas, do to the serious subject matter. Try not to take the moderation personally. The moderators are also trying to make sure that Joe Newshooter who stumbles on this thread in 2025 can pick out the signal from the noise.

BLB68 said:

You're new here, so you may not be aware that this forum and the legal forum are much more strictly moderated than other areas, do to the serious subject matter. Try not to take the moderation personally. The moderators are also trying to make sure that Joe Newshooter who stumbles on this thread in 2025 can pick out the signal from the noise.

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Obviously good advice, but a sad testimony to the CYA attitude that permeates our society. We took a huge step away from civility when the courts decided LE has no obligation to protect our citizens. "Looking out for #1" used to be a catch-phrase for selfishness, now it's America's mantra.

Hale said:

Obviously good advice, but a sad testimony to the CYA attitude that permeates our society. We took a huge step away from civility when the courts decided LE has no obligation to protect our citizens. "Looking out for #1" used to be a catch-phrase for selfishness, now it's America's mantra.

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What CYA attitude? You quoted the bit of my post about this and the legal forum being more heavily moderated. That's at least in part to control misinformation, which seems to me more like a public service than anything self-serving on the part of the folks running the board.

LE never had an obligation to protect individual citizens, the court cases simply confirmed it. The role of LE is to serve the interests of the state, the body as a whole. This is basic criminal justice 101 stuff.

You look out for number one not out of selfishness, but out of the wisdom that you cannot help anyone, ever again, if you're dead. Unless you're trying to get a nice life insurance payout for your family, maybe. I mean, if you're older and you weigh your end of life earning potential vs. the value of your insurance policy, it might make sense to rush into danger, but otherwise, you have a much stronger obligation to take care of your family than a stranger.

Hale said:

I am former LE, albeit many years ago, with considerable experience.

...In my experience, our local police are VERY trigger happy and grossly inexperienced. I could tell you some interesting stories, but that's the topic of another time. And again, no officer is likely to "encounter" me; I don't act rashly nor would I enter a building on a "hunt" as you so wrongly assume.

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By 'former' do you mean a full career with a service retirement? A partial career with a forced medical retirement? Or did you quit or get terminated after a shorter time? How long ago was it?

Any answers you care to offer might give some perspective regarding the amount and type of training you may have had the opportunity to receive.

Just because your local cops might be (in your opinion) 'very trigger happy', etc., that certainly doesn't mean it applies to the rest of the million-odd full-time cops working in the US (and then the reserves, etc).

Also, how will you have any way of knowing some off-duty or visiting/vacationing cop unknown to you, or even another lawfully armed CCW-type citizen, aren't also present and might mistake you for another shooter? This has become a topic of significant interest to LE in the last several years as off-duty, plainclothes and undercover cops have been shot and killed by responding cops at incidents. And those victims are cops who are familiar with current LE training and response tactics, too. It was even the focus of a special week of training I attended back at the beginning of the 2000's (2000 or '02? I'd have to dig out the certificate), and that class unfortunately occurred in the same county where a UC cop had been killed by patrol officers responding to a reported armed robbery a few days prior to the class.

These situations and incidents are high risk situations, for everyone, all the way around.

If someone is a man (or woman) with gun when police are arriving on-scene ... they're quite likely just THE MAN (or woman) WITH A GUN at the incident ... even if you don't see or hear them arrive (not uncommon).

I carry a firearm on my person for one reason: To protect my family and myself. I am not LEO. I am not active or retired military. I am not a self ascribed Sheep Dog. I'm not saying I would do nothing nor am I advocating that innocents should be sheep to the slaughter. My point is that as someone who has basically trained to put holes in a paper target, I have no business drawing my gun and rushing in to get shot by either the shooter or the cops who may think I am a bad guy. Me drawing my gun and rushing in, no matter how well meaning, will only exacerbate the situation. I don't mean in general. I mean ME personally. I will not make the situation better by doing that sort of thing.

Here's my plan in that situation: If I am with my family, use my head and get them to safety. Watch what I am doing. Think about the situation. Figure out if I am able to get them away from the scene or if we need to hunker in a defensible spot. This is where the firearm comes in handy. I will not only be relying on a chair to hold a door closed. I have a tool with some amount of the element of surprise to react if there is a clear shot while in mortal danger. This is exactly the reason I carry a gun. I'm not being cowardly. I am being honest. I carry for PERSONAL protection.

Now, if I were in the same situation without my wife and/or daughter, then I would like to think I could do more. It still wouldn't involve drawing my gun and hunting a shooter. I'm not that great of a shot. What I am is level headed. I don't panic easily. I tend to keep it together when I need to think on the fly. Where are the sounds coming from, what direction, where is the logical place the shooter is heading. What I lack in being able to stop him, I may be able to make up for in getting people to no go that way. Stay quiet, stay low, and find the most direct path out of the situation or at least pick a location that can be fortified.

By all means, if you can take a shot, take a shot. Letting people get mowed down because you were too afraid to act is one thing. If you have a means to end the situation and save lives, do it. However, rushing in to "help" may end costing more lives, including your own. Police are professionals with training in such situations. Staying out of their way and helping innocent and scared people to evade danger is heroic enough. Use the situational awareness we all try to maintain as people who carry concealed to read the situation and help that way.

Once again, this is coming from a guy who is 100% a civilian with no background in first response.

Ok, I can take a hint. Have fun.

Interesting way to have a fantasy. You come out Nordstrom’s with your 5 is enough J frame drawn. You have heard shots and screams. You see two folks with guns. One is a man with a smoking Glock. The other has beard down to his belt buckle and a lever action. They both turn towards you.

Whom do you trust?

Hale said:

I will agree that police in general are extremely trigger-happy, and would certainly advise retreat as the best option in most cases.

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This is nonsense. When you compare the number of shootings by police to the number of arrests it's a tiny fraction of a percent. Attached is a link to the Washington Post, and reflects 447 people killed YTD by police. Of course any loss of life is regretable, but making the blanket statement that police are extremely trigger happy and that should play into your decision in regards to what to do in an active shooter situation is irresponsible.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...gs-2019/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a4e5a89e0182

Hale said:

our local police are VERY trigger happy

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How many people have they shot? What department? You pick the timeframe. Please provide backup. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to see facts back up this kind of statement.

MikeInOr said:

You should really have a humorous quip prepared before hand to mumble to yourself as you are charging in.

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Sgt Hulka summed it up nicely: "I'm getting to o old for this s....tuff."

The church that I attend periodically has the local police department come in and do active shooter training for the security team.

One of the very first things that they cover in every class is if you're not on the schedule to do security for that service or that event and something happens stay out of it. At the most they want you to make sure the team members who are on duty that day are aware of it but other than that MYOB.

It's not something that gets talked about a lot but there was a parishioner at New Life Church who tried to get in the middle of the security response to the shooting. I think he actually ended up getting shot. But he tried to take a gun from one of the security team and then ran down the hall to help Jeanne Assam. After the shooting was all over he grabbed every reporter he could and talked about what a hero he was and how poor the church's response was and how much better it could have been if he was in charge and the church ended up asking him to leave the church over it. He showed up at the next service and they met him at the door with a restraining order and told him not to come back.

My wife and I make it a plan that if we go to a restaurant we ask to be seated as far away from the front door and is close to the emergency exit as possible. We don't say it that way but that's where we try to end up sitting. We do the same thing at church.

In the event of an active shooter situation assuming my wife and I are there together the first thing I'm going to do is try to get my wife out of the area.

Unless the situation is absolutely clear-cut as in the shooter stands up right in front of me and starts shooting people, I'm not going hunting because I don't see how any good can come out of it.

First a moderator chastises me for something I never recommended, and stresses the "seriousness" of this forum:

Jeff White said:

I’m sorry but I cannot permit advise as foolish as an armed citizen going after an active shooter to go unchallenged. You’re “extensive” LE experience should have taught you that advice like “if you’re holding your glock gangsta style will get you shot” doesn’t contribute anything to the conversation not does your suggestion that a cowboy hat and long beard will ID you as a good guy.

This is the most serious forum on THR and comments like that add nothing to the discussion and don’t help the credibility of the member who posts them.

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Then another moderator suggests a "fantasy" situation (in this desperately "serious" thread) based on a a total misrepresentation of my post:

GEM said:

Interesting way to have a fantasy. You come out Nordstrom’s with your 5 is enough J frame drawn. You have heard shots and screams. You see two folks with guns. One is a man with a smoking Glock. The other has beard down to his belt buckle and a lever action. They both turn towards you.

Whom do you trust?

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Yea. Really classy, guys - what a friendly place!

For those who haven't closed their minds, here's something to ponder: Don't fall into the PC lie that "profiling is wrong and doesn't work". It's become very popular to signal your self-righteousness by pretending that appearances don't matter and that everyone is 100% equal, and it's caused the death of many an innocent citizen. Civilians with cell phones, children with orange-tipped toy guns, senior citizens in their own beds, and even cops who were unfortunate enough to get in front of their PC-happy cohorts.

In spite of this, I still believe there are many Officers who do practice common sense, and thus my recommendation concerning appearance. As is obvious from my posts, I never advocated going on a "shooter hunt", I merely suggested common sense ideas that might help minimize your chances of being shot by LE. You're free to accept or reject this advice, the same as any you might read on this forum.

And apparently (if the reaction of these two mods is any indication), you're also free to exaggerate and mock these suggestions, all while stressing the "seriousness" of this forum section. You may also challenge my background and demand answers as they have, but I won't bother replying. I'm certain that I can't live up to their extensive experience and knowledge, so I would never dream of trying.

But I will address @GEM's "fantasy", since he deems it appropriate for this thread: If you come out of Nordstrom's with gun drawn after merely hearing shots and screams, you are an idiot. And if you then see two folks of any appearance with guns pointed at you, expect to be shot by one or both. It's what you deserve.

Blue Brick said:

Ok bullets are flying....I have a gun...I want to help save lives. I am the first on the scene. How does Mr. Policeman and John Public know I there to help and not a threat? How do you keep from getting shot from friendly fire?

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They don't.
Unless they know you personally and even then, they don't.

Hale said:

First a moderator chastises me for something I never recommended, and stresses the "seriousness" of this forum:

Then another moderator suggests a "fantasy" situation (in this desperately "serious" thread) based on a a total misrepresentation of my post:

Yea. Really classy, guys - what a friendly place!

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If you're going to rage quit just do it

Trunk Monkey said:

If you're going to rage quit just do it

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No rage here. Btw, there's some good advice in your signature...

Kleanbore said:

Some of your ideas are largely a matter of fantasy: the belief that we can know quickly enough that the person at whom one will "take a shot" is in fact a legitimate target; the naive belief that the kind of handgun, or a hat and a beard or any other things related to appearance would mitigate the likelihood of one's being shot in a rapidly unfolding violent situation; the belief that cops are "trigger happy"; the apparent thought that a police officer poses the only significant physical danger, and not armed citizens, or the shooter's accomplices.

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I've never stated a belief that "we can quickly know enough about a person", nor did I claim that appearance would totally mitigate one's exposure. I merely stated "if you look like a dirtbag, you're more likely to be shot", and that my own appearance likely reduced this possibility. This is not "fantasy", it is merely common sense, and is substantiated by psychological tests. I offered graphic substantiation of the phenomenon earlier, but a mod deemed it racist even though both examples were white. This is of course assuming that LE and others involved are exercising common sense, a factor that is admittedly less likely today than in years past.

Kleanbore said:

Might I respectfully suggest that you attend Massad Ayoob's course in use of force law.

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I'm quite familiar with Ayoob's teachings, perhaps you need a drink too:

"...if "profiling" is taken to mean stopping a motorist because he is an African-American in a Caucasian neighborhood, it's wrong. Victims call it "DWB": "Driving While Black" or "Driving While Brown." That sort of profiling is, obviously, unacceptable.

At the same time, if the profile of committed Al-Qaeda members is Arabic, with little or accented English, late teens to mid-forties, then it is understandable that good people who unfortunately fit this profile come in for additional scrutiny, but the scrutiny is logical and reasonable given the prevailing circumstances. In my case, as a frequent flyer with an Arabic name who has to declare firearms at airport check-in counters, life has become more interesting the last few years, but I shrug it off because I understand where it comes from.

Let's say that you are driving a white Audi with Virginia plates through the community I serve, and an hour ago there has been a vicious murder perpetrated by a suspect driving a white Audi with Virginia plates. You can expect that I, or one of my brother or sister officers, will pull you over. Some would call it profiling, but under the circumstances, we would call it common sense and fulfillment of duty."
Source: An Interview with a Lethal Man

The point here is that appearance DOES matter, and a sensible man accounts for it. You're assuming way too much from my statements in your zeal to "correct" me.