cast 308win hunting loads

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troy fairweather

troy fairweather

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i am looking to pick up a winchester model 100 next month for good price. i have a lyman 311291 ev mold it's a 170 gr round nose gas checked bullet and should feed smooth in the autoloader. i never loaded cast for 308 win. so any loads for info will be helpful.

i will powder coat the bullets and get some gas checks, any idea on the max pfs would be. i lso have to get some lyman handles.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...r-309-diameter-170-grain-round-nose-gas-check
 
I load a lot of 170grn .309" cast bullets, including for my .308 Savage 99. I have used a number of powders, but I always come back around to IMR3031, with IMR4198 as a backup. You could go as slow as IMR4895, with a reasonable expectation of good performance, but I've always considered IMR3031 the sweet spot. I use it with cast in .308, .30-30, and even in .348WCF. I have specific velocity data if you are interested.

Depending on the bullet hardness, and your fit to bore, you may or may not have to gas check them... I don't any longer, but my target velocity is only 1500fps or so. I have run them as high as 1900fps (if memory serves,) without problems. I only shoot commercially cast bullets.
 
...actually, it's pretty brief data...

All 170grn Montana Bullet Works 170grn GC bullet, although I know I have substituted the LaserCast 170grn non-GC bullet with the same data, too.

22" (?) barrel Savage 99...

28grn IMR3031, 1775fps
32grn IMR3031, 2000fps

While IMR4198 is more economical, I was loading for lower velocities...

24grn IMR4198, 1850fps
19.8grn IMR4198, 1525fps
17.8grn IMR4198, 1425fps

For velocities over 2400fps, my test loads with IMR's 4895 and 4064, all over 41grn, with jacketed 150 and 165grn bullets... you will just need to use published data and work up to it. I abandoned those loads... they are not appropriate for cast, generally, and I don't like to beat up my 99 like that.
 
That bullet came out in the 1906 lyman catalog (ideal back then) & was designed for the 30-30w.

It has a bore riding nose that may need sized down if too much pc gets on it increasing the diameter of it's nose.

I tried several different molds with that bullet & never seemed to be able to get any accuracy with them when pushed over 1400fps. Driving them hard enough to cycle the action of your semi-auto may be an issue. Several years ago I used a 308w to test my cast/pc'd bullets, figured if the pc will hold up to a 308w. The pc would hold up to any of the handgun calibers I cast/reload for. I also worked on an alloy for hunting bullets at the same time. As you can see with the recovered bullets below the 1700fps/1900fps/2100fps alloys were all too hard and the bullets shattered. The 2300fps bullet was a 230gr cast/pc'd bullet with a 50,000+psi load & the alloy not only held up to that velocity. It was elastic enough to bend not break/shatter.
9TAAbA8.jpg
 
Charlie98 said:
...actually, it's pretty brief data...

All 170grn Montana Bullet Works 170grn GC bullet, although I know I have substituted the LaserCast 170grn non-GC bullet with the same data, too.

22" (?) barrel Savage 99...

28grn IMR3031, 1775fps
32grn IMR3031, 2000fps

While IMR4198 is more economical, I was loading for lower velocities...

24grn IMR4198, 1850fps
19.8grn IMR4198, 1525fps
17.8grn IMR4198, 1425fps

For velocities over 2400fps, my test loads with IMR's 4895 and 4064, all over 41grn, with jacketed 150 and 165grn bullets... you will just need to use published data and work up to it. I abandoned those loads... they are not appropriate for cast, generally, and I don't like to beat up my 99 like that.
Click to expand...
thanks for the info.
 
forrest r said:
That bullet came out in the 1906 lyman catalog (ideal back then) & was designed for the 30-30w.

It has a bore riding nose that may need sized down if too much pc gets on it increasing the diameter of it's nose.

I tried several different molds with that bullet & never seemed to be able to get any accuracy with them when pushed over 1400fps. Driving them hard enough to cycle the action of your semi-auto may be an issue. Several years ago I used a 308w to test my cast/pc'd bullets, figured if the pc will hold up to a 308w. The pc would hold up to any of the handgun calibers I cast/reload for. I also worked on an alloy for hunting bullets at the same time. As you can see with the recovered bullets below the 1700fps/1900fps/2100fps alloys were all too hard and the bullets shattered. The 2300fps bullet was a 230gr cast/pc'd bullet with a 50,000+psi load & the alloy not only held up to that velocity. It was elastic enough to bend not break/shatter.
View attachment 852381
Click to expand...
my early marlin 336 did not like this bullet. the nose prevented it from the bullet seating. i am fine if i can only get 1400 fps, good for plinking. i am interested in what it takes to cycle the rifle. thanks for the info and pics.
 
Troy, update us on what works for you... I'm curious meself.

FWIW, my 336 did not like 150grn bullets as much as the 170's, and I've always stuck with the 170's since, at least for cast. My 99 seems to like them, too.

I sort of brain-cramped... I forgot the 100 was an autoloader, I would definitely start with IMR3031...
 
Charlie98 said:
Troy, update us on what works for you... I'm curious meself.

FWIW, my 336 did not like 150grn bullets as much as the 170's, and I've always stuck with the 170's since, at least for cast. My 99 seems to like them, too.

I sort of brain-cramped... I forgot the 100 was an autoloader, I would definitely start with IMR3031...
Click to expand...
i always preferred 170s over 150s in the 30-30. i will probably have to do 2 different loads one for accuracy and one that the gun will run. i have 3031.
 
If you have IMR4227, it worked well for me using cast in a bolt action 308. Don't know if it will operate a semi auto though.
I ran them between 18 and 1900. I couldn't talk myself into hunting with them.
 
I shot the 311291 out of a 788 Rem back in the 70s. 24 grains of 4198 and alox lube, Lyman gas check. Honest 2 moa. Would not hesitate to shoot deer with heart/lung shot but probably will need to track a short way. Won't be much expansion.
 
Bfh_auto said:
If you have IMR4227, it worked well for me using cast in a bolt action 308. Don't know if it will operate a semi auto though.
Click to expand...

I've used IMR4227 for test loads in the .30-30 and .308 with cast, 17.8grn gave me 1620fps and 1425fps, respectively. It worked for what I wanted it to do, but I didn't find it exceptionally accurate over IMR4198 or 3031. I don't know that it would work well in an autoloader, either; me thinks you would really have to pump the charge up... and then you getting into pressure issues. Oddly enough, what this particular test did for me was open my eyes to the differences of case capacity, and what they mean to ballistics, all else being equal.

I like IMR4227, but I use it in .41 Magnum and .45 Colt loads fired in carbines, primarily.
 
2400 has always done better for me with cast bullets in the 308w accuracy wise compared to 4227. Burned thru #4 of 4227 trying several different cast bullets and never did get the results that 2400 delivers.
Not hand picked/cherry picked target. Nothing more than the target used that day testing bullets/loads. A 10-shot group @ 100yds (moa) using cast bullets (lee 160-2r tl) bullet with home made aluminum gas checks that was pc'd and then lubed with 45/45/10.
PWiZFog.jpg

Same bullet with h335, 2 moa/2" @100yds is childs play with a 308w and cast bullets. The 308w I'm using will easily do 2moa or less when pushing those bullets 2600fps+ with h335.
tEeK5wb.jpg

Cast bullets with bore riding noses or long pointed noses tend to have issues when being driven/pushed too hard. A Cramer bullet that is a good example of this. I like the cramer bullet design better than the lyman 311334/311335/311314 bullets, the cramer has a shorter stronger nose. Cast from a 2-cavity mold 1 is a sp the other a hp. Same bullet/bullet base/bullet body, just different noses.
yl6sLkT.png

Start pushing those bullets over 2400fps and the sp bullet design starts to fail.
uLdIPcZ.jpg

The issue with bore riding nosed bullets is they tend to strip out easily which ='s low pressure/low velocity unless they are cast from rock hard alloys. But too hard of an alloy can be just as bad, it all depends on the bullet's design. Made a couple of different bump dies to "bump" the bullets noses to fit the leade of my 308w bbl.Thee bottom bullet has an extreme bump to it but it has 60% more of it's nose engaging the rifling's when the bolt closes. That's why I still use a Egan bump die and 2 different bump dies for some of the bullets I cast and pc.
vo4UgGe.jpg

Some hp's I cast/shoot in the 308w, the bump die that bumped the nose of that bullet pictured above was designed to bump a "Ness" hp bullet I cast so that the long hp of that bullet (top right) matches the leade of the 308w bbl and has land marks/full land engagement like the bullet pictured above.
BiYTQTG.png
 
forrest r said:
2400 has always done better for me with cast bullets in the 308w accuracy wise compared to 4227. Burned thru #4 of 4227 trying several different cast bullets and never did get the results that 2400 delivers.
Not hand picked/cherry picked target. Nothing more than the target used that day testing bullets/loads. A 10-shot group @ 100yds (moa) using cast bullets (lee 160-2r tl) bullet with home made aluminum gas checks that was pc'd and then lubed with 45/45/10.
View attachment 852510

Same bullet with h335, 2 moa/2" @100yds is childs play with a 308w and cast bullets. The 308w I'm using will easily do 2moa or less when pushing those bullets 2600fps+ with h335.
View attachment 852511

Cast bullets with bore riding noses or long pointed noses tend to have issues when being driven/pushed too hard. A Cramer bullet that is a good example of this. I like the cramer bullet design better than the lyman 311334/311335/311314 bullets, the cramer has a shorter stronger nose. Cast from a 2-cavity mold 1 is a sp the other a hp. Same bullet/bullet base/bullet body, just different noses.
View attachment 852512

Start pushing those bullets over 2400fps and the sp bullet design starts to fail.
View attachment 852513

The issue with bore riding nosed bullets is they tend to strip out easily which ='s low pressure/low velocity unless they are cast from rock hard alloys. But too hard of an alloy can be just as bad, it all depends on the bullet's design. Made a couple of different bump dies to "bump" the bullets noses to fit the leade of my 308w bbl.Thee bottom bullet has an extreme bump to it but it has 60% more of it's nose engaging the rifling's when the bolt closes. That's why I still use a Egan bump die and 2 different bump dies for some of the bullets I cast and pc.
View attachment 852514

Some hp's I cast/shoot in the 308w, the bump die that bumped the nose of that bullet pictured above was designed to bump a "Ness" hp bullet I cast so that the long hp of that bullet (top right) matches the leade of the 308w bbl and has land marks/full land engagement like the bullet pictured above.
View attachment 852515
Click to expand...
thanks for the info, i have 2400 to try, hope to get the gun on the 6th. what do you use to make the gas checks one of them dies, guess you use soda cans or flashing.
 
Charlie98 said:
In 35 years of reloading, I've never heard that term. Granted, I've just recently gotten into loading cast in rifle cartridges. I don't see where that would be a significant benefit to accuracy, but it's an interesting bullet anyway.
Click to expand...
normally there are bullets that from the crimp grove up are with in the size to still contacted the rifling. other bullets don't touch the rifling. the bore ridding bullets tend to have less of the bullet full size that can cause for less grip on the.
 
Any pistol powder will give you surprisingly good results with cast bullets in the 308w. Easy on the wallet & gives you something to do with the extra/test bullets from testing alloys/diameters/gc's/etc. Or simply cast for plinking loads, nothing better than free range lead that is cast & pc'd for plinking bullets in the rifles.
Not hand picked simply kept these target for future reference for the winchester super handicap powder.. 10-shot groups @ 50yds.
epY8dPc.jpg
BJ3ovpc.jpg

Cast bullets that don't have the wiper grooves in the nose are stronger than those that have them. Flat noses or noses with less aggressive radius (not as pointy) are stronger than bullets with long pointy noses (less bullet nose slump). Bullet designs with large deep lube grooves are weaker than bullets with shallow lube grooves. It all starts with the bullet fit in the leade of the bbl. While bore riding nosed bullets have a good leade allignment/fit, they can't take the speed/pressure of hv loads. The nose strips out on them with the higher rpm's.
st4tMS0.png

What happens is you hit the loud button and bang, the pressure starts. The front part of the bullet is engaging the rifling's and starting to rotate/twist. The back part of the bullet is bumping up/expanding/filling the ball throat of the chamber. That bumping action on the back of the bullet while it's being pushed strait causes rotational torque on the middle of the bullet, hence the weak point is the "wiper groove" in some bullets. The bore riding nose on others. Too hard of an alloy/brittle alloy and the point where the strait push meets the rotational torque causes the bullet to fail. Keep in mind that as the bullet moves thru the throat of the bbl, that twisting point on the bullet moves down the bullets body.

There's people out there that have forgotten more than I know about cast bullets in the 308w. It's a hard caliber to reload cast bullets for with it's short case neck and shallow leade in the throat of the chamber. I do like the lee 160-2r tl bullets in the 308w, using a $50 6-cavity mold I cast a pile of bullets in a hurry. They can be pc'd or traditionally lubed. Just an all around good bullet.
I2jt2AW.jpg
 
troy fairweather said:
if for some reason i keep my 308 rem 700 i m trying to sell, i would like to try the lee bullet they use for the 300 blk.
Click to expand...

That bullet is a piece of *****. The nose is waaaayyy tooooo long and slumps when pushed over 1000fps. When a bullets nose slumps it removes the bullets yawl and you end up with 12"+ groups @ 50yds. To get those bullets to perform I cast them, pc'd them and then swaged them into a completely different bullet.
fk34muX.jpg

The bullet on the right is the lee 230bo bullet as cast. I had to swage them into the bullets on the left to get any performance out of them.
long nose vs short strong nose
gc bullet base vs long tapered boattail base
long tapered body vs square/same diameter body with the arrow pointing to where the bullets body ended on the swaged bullets. That also happens to be where the ball throat ends/bullet fit when seated in the 308w cases.

Go over to the cast bullet website and look up what they think about that 230gr lee bo bullet & what they've tried to do with it to get any performance out of it.
 
forrest r said:
That bullet is a piece of *****. The nose is waaaayyy tooooo long and slumps when pushed over 1000fps. When a bullets nose slumps it removes the bullets yawl and you end up with 12"+ groups @ 50yds. To get those bullets to perform I cast them, pc'd them and then swaged them into a completely different bullet.
View attachment 852535

The bullet on the right is the lee 230bo bullet as cast. I had to swage them into the bullets on the left to get any performance out of them.
long nose vs short strong nose
gc bullet base vs long tapered boattail base
long tapered body vs square/same diameter body with the arrow pointing to where the bullets body ended on the swaged bullets. That also happens to be where the ball throat ends/bullet fit when seated in the 308w cases.

Go over to the cast bullet website and look up what they think about that 230gr lee bo bullet & what they've tried to do with it to get any performance out of it.
Click to expand...
that's the first though i have with the lee blackout bullet, that nose is so long even for the 300blk. do you now of any other options similar maybe 200 grains.
 
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