Bringing a handgun to a rifle fight.
- Thread starter SSN Vet
- Start date
- Status
guyfromohio
Member
desidog
Member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2008
- Messages
- 2,594
Based on the blurry CCTV footage, and taking into account that the LEO had a weapon mounted light, I believe he was using a rifle. If you look at his stance, it appears that his right elbow is sticking out... if he were shooting a pistol it would be extended forwards.... not out. But there's no telling for sure, he could be a lefty... but then his foot stance would be weird.
Handguns are very much under rated, especially with modern ammo. The old adage of using my handgun to fight my way to my rifle doesn't apply anymore. The rifles advantage is better accuracy at longer ranges. But at ranges close enough to get hits a 9mm is every bit as effective as a 308.
OP
OP
SSN Vet
Member
Thanks for keeping it constructive...
Looks like in Dayton, six officers responded.
I've seen some patrol rifles that weren't accessible enough. My BIL is a state police detective and his AR was always in the trunk.
I've done work with a custom case company and we've set up custom locked drawer cases in the tailgate of police SUVs. They had to pop the tailgate and unlock and slide open the drawer. Seems like a biometric lock on a console based rack that covers the trigger would be a fast way to go.
I was in Paris last fall and experienced the same roscoe. The Gendarmes were out in large numbers. Two and four man teams. All wearing body armor and donning AWs (real AWs). Their demeanor looked pretty keyed up and alert.
I was in NYC twice last year and saw 4 man teams with body armor and ARs at several sights. They weren't as prevalent as in Paris. But they were there.
Looks like in Dayton, six officers responded.
I've seen some patrol rifles that weren't accessible enough. My BIL is a state police detective and his AR was always in the trunk.
I've done work with a custom case company and we've set up custom locked drawer cases in the tailgate of police SUVs. They had to pop the tailgate and unlock and slide open the drawer. Seems like a biometric lock on a console based rack that covers the trigger would be a fast way to go.
I was in Paris last fall and experienced the same roscoe. The Gendarmes were out in large numbers. Two and four man teams. All wearing body armor and donning AWs (real AWs). Their demeanor looked pretty keyed up and alert.
I was in NYC twice last year and saw 4 man teams with body armor and ARs at several sights. They weren't as prevalent as in Paris. But they were there.
I agree with your posts about 95% of the time but A 9 mm is not even in the same conversation as a 308 rifle round and what the differences are in tissue damage.
The top priority of any civilian is to get away from situation like that w/o firing a shot. If confronted by the shooter attack because that something he expects least. Old military proverb ( from Napoleon I think)if you too weak to defend yourself you go on the offensive.
The biggest crap foistered on the public is the inability to keep up with modern technology in bullet penetration.
We artifically make body armor more valuable, and government does it to add additional protection for law enforcement.
Body armor is actually traditionally used by criminals more than police. It first started to become desired for law enforcement in the 1970s and common in the 1980s.
The original body armor of the late 1800s and early 1900s was a ton of clothing, so much so that the giant torsoed stereotype of the eras bad guy is partially as a result of the look of someone wearing many sweaters. And who can forget Ned Kelly's armor. Body armor was common in the gangster era, but primarily used by bad guys.
If limited to handguns in public then it makes a whole lot more sense to make handguns effective against a larger number of threats, and the AP pistol ban should be overturned.
Body armor is both easy to acquire and easy to make, and far more widely used in offense than in defense, because it is a hassle to wear long term for potential defense, is bulky, and often highly visible, but easy to wear short term for an offensive operation. This means restrictions that make it more valuable primarily help the criminals that plan to inflict harm, as well as law enforcement, at the expense of the armed civilian.
We artifically make body armor more valuable, and government does it to add additional protection for law enforcement.
Body armor is actually traditionally used by criminals more than police. It first started to become desired for law enforcement in the 1970s and common in the 1980s.
The original body armor of the late 1800s and early 1900s was a ton of clothing, so much so that the giant torsoed stereotype of the eras bad guy is partially as a result of the look of someone wearing many sweaters. And who can forget Ned Kelly's armor. Body armor was common in the gangster era, but primarily used by bad guys.
If limited to handguns in public then it makes a whole lot more sense to make handguns effective against a larger number of threats, and the AP pistol ban should be overturned.
Body armor is both easy to acquire and easy to make, and far more widely used in offense than in defense, because it is a hassle to wear long term for potential defense, is bulky, and often highly visible, but easy to wear short term for an offensive operation. This means restrictions that make it more valuable primarily help the criminals that plan to inflict harm, as well as law enforcement, at the expense of the armed civilian.
Last edited:
Jenrick
Member
Based on the single viewing of the surveillance video, the angles of engagement might have bypassed hard plates or soft armor entirely. Second, the high thoracic shot will often times come right over the top of the body armor as few people were it correctly (almost universally people let it sit too low if they haven't been trained). Third plates don't cover a very large area, soft armor covers more but still not the entire torso, and certainly not the body. Rounds impacting below the armor, to the sides of the armor, into the arms etc, are all effective, even if not intended.
627PCFan
Member
I think everyone missing the key, you don't have to defeat the armor to defeat the individual. 9mm, 40, 45 to a vest usually knocks you down. A plate hit racks you around pretty well. Couple of connections and your down, bounce the bullets into you and your done.
Jenrick
Member
A 124 gr 9mm at 1200 fps has about half the momentum of a fastball at 90 mph. Not near enough to knock someone over. Yes people frequently fall over when shot, even with body armor, but it's almost exclusively psychological rather than physical.
the mentality of "wait til he runs outta bullets and kills himself" is no longer acceptable to the public, even if some departments still follow it. Also, since the North Holleywood shootout in the mid 90's all of our small town cops have carried rifles and shotguns in their cars. They also have body armor. Most likely Individual officers were so disgusted by the failure of police officer response to mass shootings, more are acting in the best interest of the public, not necessarily department policy, or legal obligation. Cities also don't want to be the host of the next MDA/Everytown rally.
Failed physics did ya? If that bullet has enough power to knock you down when it hits you it has enough power to knock you down when you fire it. That while equal and opposite thing.
You've watched too many movies dude. It only works that way in Hollywood.627PCFan
Member
Sorry, poorly written. Not knock you over and fly back, knock the crap out of you and you drop. I've not seen many instances of guys taking one to the vest and standing there like a boss. Rewatch the hollywood shoot out.
627PCFan
Member
Also in case, you wanted to see him on the receiving end.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=a3C25_1564985205
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=a3C25_1564985205
Knock them down from a hit to body armor? No. That part is bull.
However if several officers are firing multiple rds out of 15-20 rd mags any offender is going to be walking (in this case running) into a virtual firing squad and even if they’re hitting the body armor on some of those shots some are still going to go into arms, legs, pelvic area, shoulder, throat, clavicular area and the gaps in the armpit and on some vests the sides.
All that’s going to slow them down, hurt, make them react to them and ultimately result in their demise.
I can kind of see where he’s going with it I think ... unless I’m wrong and he thinks that people truly fly through the air when they’re shot.
FROGO207
Member
I think that the officers were on foot patrol in the general area and would have only been armed with sidearms. Who wants to sling a rifle around all night for no reason.
I also remember of a guy that came to the aid of a pinned down officer and scored 5 out of 6 hits with a 357 at something like 150 YDS in a trailer park.
I also remember of a guy that came to the aid of a pinned down officer and scored 5 out of 6 hits with a 357 at something like 150 YDS in a trailer park.
While interesting, I see nothing in that video that leads me to believe that he was "knocked down" or "dropped" from a hit or hits to the vest. Do you?
I am no expert , but I have to think that a one time maniacal shooter - no experience with close quarter high volume gunfight - is likely to be seriously disrupted by rapid multiple hits to body armor , and that disruption would lead to reduced killing efficiency by that shooter and increased vulnerability.
DaisyCutter
Member
LEOs are being trained specifically for active shooter scenarios now. Public buildings, parks and schools, etc., are in the training rotation. It was the local hospital's turn this Friday. Yes, the police do practice on site, because these places are mazes and seconds count.
The quality of the LEO(s) you get is still a crapshoot. They are humans, after all. Most aren't Rambo, but will still advance until they get in range to engage.
I carry a Springfield TRP and I practice shooting at longer ranges just for the possibility of having to engage a shooter armed with a rifle. I sacrifice some capacity (OMG!) but I consistently hit a silhouette at 50 yards, and even land a couple rounds per mag at 100 yards. I never could develop that proficiency with a striker fired pistol. I have a rifle too, but I may not want be retreat to get it when each *pop* I hear is an execution.
I hate to admit it, but in THIS WEEKEND'S scenario the fact the LEOs got the violence stopped in 'only' seconds is as much dumb luck as anything else. Literally the nightshift cop could've left the gas tank half empty and our hero would've been 5 minutes away as a result... Body count doubled. I'm glad they were as close as they were.
BTW, cops don't get paid much to start, but after a few years and a couple promotions they can earn a lot of money. Detectives I supervise are near $40/hr, with overtime available, cheap health benefits and a pension waiting. They're making $100k+/yr. Next to being a fighter pilot or a pro ball player, LEO is the best career out there.
Pay is getting ratcheted up briskly in order to recruit and retain cops in this competitive economy. Sign up today. When the economy tanks again, like it did in 2008, the line will be a lot longer.
The quality of the LEO(s) you get is still a crapshoot. They are humans, after all. Most aren't Rambo, but will still advance until they get in range to engage.
I carry a Springfield TRP and I practice shooting at longer ranges just for the possibility of having to engage a shooter armed with a rifle. I sacrifice some capacity (OMG!) but I consistently hit a silhouette at 50 yards, and even land a couple rounds per mag at 100 yards. I never could develop that proficiency with a striker fired pistol. I have a rifle too, but I may not want be retreat to get it when each *pop* I hear is an execution.
I hate to admit it, but in THIS WEEKEND'S scenario the fact the LEOs got the violence stopped in 'only' seconds is as much dumb luck as anything else. Literally the nightshift cop could've left the gas tank half empty and our hero would've been 5 minutes away as a result... Body count doubled. I'm glad they were as close as they were.
BTW, cops don't get paid much to start, but after a few years and a couple promotions they can earn a lot of money. Detectives I supervise are near $40/hr, with overtime available, cheap health benefits and a pension waiting. They're making $100k+/yr. Next to being a fighter pilot or a pro ball player, LEO is the best career out there.
Pay is getting ratcheted up briskly in order to recruit and retain cops in this competitive economy. Sign up today. When the economy tanks again, like it did in 2008, the line will be a lot longer.
DaisyCutter
Member
✓
In my younger days I had several foot pursuits I ended with a partially or completely missed Taser shot. They heard the little *pop* of the Taser deploying and they automatically fall down. It's totally mental.
Right on.
One more respect is that time is dilated for the trained professionals more than it is for the wanna-bes.
Think of a high school football player going up a against a Pro football team.
george29
Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,670
Looks like the police were in the area before the shooting started. Popular hangouts and booze = concentrated patrols.
Perp looks like Antifa. Some type of helmet, reminds me of the type Antifa uses. Backpack with a wide sling over shoulder, also Antifa. Is that a second backpack maybe?
Looks like it is indeed some type of body armor, ill fitting, sides not well adjusted, definitely leaves his entire sides vulnerable.
Short pants.
Can't tell the weapon from the CCTV but the gunshots definitely make it a SA rifle bullet.
100 round dual drum mag? Definitely too much TV training.
I read the perp was active Antifa and hated Trump but who knows? I'll have to research better but the Las Vegas creep was also anti gun who was trying to teach people a lesson.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...nnor-betts-dayton-shooting-profile/index.html
Perp looks like Antifa. Some type of helmet, reminds me of the type Antifa uses. Backpack with a wide sling over shoulder, also Antifa. Is that a second backpack maybe?
Looks like it is indeed some type of body armor, ill fitting, sides not well adjusted, definitely leaves his entire sides vulnerable.
Short pants.
Can't tell the weapon from the CCTV but the gunshots definitely make it a SA rifle bullet.
100 round dual drum mag? Definitely too much TV training.
I read the perp was active Antifa and hated Trump but who knows? I'll have to research better but the Las Vegas creep was also anti gun who was trying to teach people a lesson.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...nnor-betts-dayton-shooting-profile/index.html
- Status
