Some random thoughts, with UBC and other restrictions potentially on the horizon

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I noted that one individual stated they were at the University of Texas when the incident happened in 1966.

I was on the campus of Virginia Tech when that shooting happened in 2007. I was taking an Advanced Surgery final exam at the veterinary school. We were informed that the school was locked down and once the exam was done, we were all released and told to run to our cars and go home, which we did. There were many conflicting reports at that time. It's only until I got home and turned on the television that I realized what happened. I later learned I was driving by the dormitory where the first two victims were shot at the time this was occurring on my way into the vet school that morning.

Needless to say, the remainder of final exams were cancelled unless you desired to take the exam.
 
And, of course, the Va Tech shooting (highest fatality count of any school/educational facility) shooting was inflicted with pistols, not "assault weapons," using 10-round magazines.
 
Let me back up and do a 180. Given the intent of the second amendment, how can anything be regulated, even a machine gun or sawed off shotgun?

Also, why would a rifle with a 14" barrel be illegal, but a handgun with a 4" barrel, if you even can regulate, be legal, when the latter can be more easily concealed?
 
Now that's surprising that the ATF does not define the term assault weapon, as the left wing media touts the assault weapons ban. How can you ban something that remains undefined?
But doesn't that allow you to ban ANYTHING, from a matchlock musket to an AR10?

That's kind of the point, isn't it?
 
Let me back up and do a 180. Given the intent of the second amendment, how can anything be regulated, even a machine gun or sawed off shotgun?

Also, why would a rifle with a 14" barrel be illegal, but a handgun with a 4" barrel, if you even can regulate, be legal, when the latter can be more easily concealed?
Because common people didn't see the need for them, and allowed them to be another step for antis. Same as Black Rifles now. Same M.O., get one segment of the population separated, turn the rest against them by promising immunity, and prepare for the next group.
 
Let me back up and do a 180. Given the intent of the second amendment, how can anything be regulated, even a machine gun or sawed off shotgun?

Also, why would a rifle with a 14" barrel be illegal, but a handgun with a 4" barrel, if you even can regulate, be legal, when the latter can be more easily concealed?

When the NFA was being written handguns were going to be NFA items. The Congress critters realized that people would just cut down a shotgun or rifle instead of paying the extra $200 tax to buy a handgun. So to head this off at the pass they included short barreled rifles and shotguns. Handguns were removed before the NFA passed but the short barreled rifles and shotguns were left in.

This leads to two thoughts.

1. Imagine how different it would be if handguns had remained in the NFA. Colt and S&W would have ceased to exist. The Python and other iconic revolvers would never have come to be. Shooting competitions using handguns, as we know them today, would not exist. There would be no Ruger.

2. If they had removed the short barreled stuff when the handguns were removed how popular would they be today?
 
Complaining about assault this or that terminology isn't going to preserve them. Antigunners read the complaints and then here's the bill:

A Bill to Ban Possession of Modern Sporting Rifles and/or Military Style Semi Automatic Long Guns.

From date XYZ, the possession of any semiautomatic long arm that is magazine feed, is prohibited. Long arms with internal magazines or ammunition storage capacity will be limited to 8 rounds.

Thus, the issue of terminology is moot. No longer an AWB. It's a MSR ban - same effect.
 
When the NFA was being written handguns were going to be NFA items. The Congress critters realized that people would just cut down a shotgun or rifle instead of paying the extra $200 tax to buy a handgun....

Some forget to put the $200 in context of 1934. It was equivalent to $3880 today. So while the tax stamp seems like an inconvenience today, during the Depression, it excluded everybody but the wealthiest.
 
I just got home from a multigun match that had over 80 competitors. I'm currently on my couch, recovering from my soreness and near heatstroke (index of 107). Very challenging and well-run- as a charity event for underprivileged children in the county, organized and ran by my county sheriff's office, BTW. Competitors included current and former military, LE, and civilians. As someone who spent 23 years in the military, I was both humbled by the difficulty of the match and impressed with the pool of talent that was there. All competitors were using handguns with standard capacity magazines and various versions of the AR15. It sure feels like I completed a sporting event. Which is strange, since both the OP and more than a few of our elected employees keep saying that they serve no legitimate sporting purpose. I would also comment on service rifle matches and similar sports, but since I don't participate in those activities, I'll let someone else chime in who is more knowledgeable than I, if they would care to do so..
 
Not sure why there is this need to attack law abiding gun owners and I've always had an issue with that. Alcohol and vehicles are lethal but neither are banned. Why ban anything gun related at all?
 
Not sure why there is this need to attack law abiding gun owners and I've always had an issue with that. Alcohol and vehicles are lethal but neither are banned. Why ban anything gun related at all?

It's because of the fundamental nature of the 2A, to resist government control.

One of the political parties in this country is explicitly in favor of government control.

I'm not entirely sure about the other ...
 
Before I begin, let's remember the following, the Second Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I guess, technically, the right to keep and bear arms, whatever they might be, "shall not be infringed". But that all ended in 1934 with the Gun Control Act of 1934. Machine guns, short barreled rifles & shotguns, etc, became regulated. Regulation, no matter how you define it, is infringement.

So, we have already gone down that road.

Such a big deal is made about Universal Background Checks. Aren't all handguns, post 1899, subject to this already? Longarms, if a private sale, are not. These are a small portion of overall sales, so really they are not regulating all that much more, although it is nice to have the option of going to a gun show, and purchasing a long arm, should I desire to do so, without a paper trail, as a paper trail can lead to registration and potential confiscation. Personally, when I complete Form 4473, I consider that to be infringement, and I am surprised that is allowed and required, but it is.

BUT, this leads up to the whole point of this thread. IF you already have Gun Control Acts, which already have infringed the rights of law abiding citizens, why is such a big deal made about banning assault weapons? Again, like I said, I don't agree with paperwork and banning and infringement, but if this needs to be done, I don't have a problem with that per se.

And here's why? What purpose do they serve other than to fire many shots in a short period of time? Can anyone explain why they are necessary over other available firearms, other than they could be fun to shoot? No real sportsmanship there, no skill in improving target practice skills, no needed for hunting or even self defense. I would still keep my nose out of this except for I think that the cause was really really damaged or hurt when the term "assault" was used to define many such weapons.

How ever was that term used to describe such weapons and who coined it and why is it flagrantly abused? Like I said, it certainly does not help the cause, and using "assault" and "weapon" in the same sentence looks terrible to the general public, especially those with no firearms experience.

Again, some random thoughts, but valid points, I think.
Citizens are not required to justify the exercising of a fundamental right as a prerequisite to indeed do so.
 
Umm... yeah it does. Serial number?

As to no mass shootings before 1967. Does the St. Valentine's Day Massacre ring any bells? Ignorance of history doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Ignorance married to craven dishonesty is the bedrock of advocacy of racially invidious gun controls.
 
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Complaining about assault this or that terminology isn't going to preserve them. Antigunners read the complaints and then here's the bill:

A Bill to Ban Possession of Modern Sporting Rifles and/or Military Style Semi Automatic Long Guns.

From date XYZ, the possession of any semiautomatic long arm that is magazine feed, is prohibited. Long arms with internal magazines or ammunition storage capacity will be limited to 8 rounds.

Thus, the issue of terminology is moot. No longer an AWB. It's a MSR ban - same effect.
If you concede the terms of debate, you concede the debate.

Let a lie go unchallenged and it's accepted as the truth.

I've never rolled over that way and never will.
 
Umm... yeah it does. Serial number?

As to no mass shootings before 1967. Does the St. Valentine's Day Massacre ring any bells? Ignorance of history doesn't mean it didn't happen.
We wouldn't want to count an atrocity commited by organized crime because organized crime gets a free bee on shoot-em ups, would we???:evil::scrutiny:
 
If you concede the terms of debate, you concede the debate.

Let a lie go unchallenged and it's accepted as the truth.

I've never rolled over that way and never will.

A letter from Speaker Pelosi and President Warren to Deanimator:

Dear Mr. Deanimator:

Thank you for correcting us on the usage of 'assault' in the context of weapons used in massacres. We were incorrect in categorizing these modern sporting rifles as 'assault' weapons or rifles. We used the correct term in the recent legislation that enabled the banning and confiscation of all semiautomatic long guns that are magazine fed. We also thank those who corrected us not the use the term 'clip'. The USA is now safer as modern sporting rifles (defined as semiautomatic long guns fed by magazines) are being removed from circulation. We noted those who said that the law must have a grandfather clause as before, and thus that was not part of the law. Thank the gun community for pointing that out.

We also note that many have stated they will defy the law and hide their guns. Mr. Deanimator, we note your social media and Internet posts containing phrases such as:
I REFUSE. Under the new law, you have been identified as have other such posters and warrants to search your premises have been issued to the BATFE. Be assured they are ready to deal with resistance.

While many guns may be hidden and not discovered, the law will engender cultural change in the USA. Just as smoking made one appear as a social pariah, the new law banning and confiscating modern sporting rifles will put those hiding such guns in a similar societal position over time. Immediate consequences of the law will be:

a. The guns cannot be used in competitions.
b. The guns cannot be used in hunting
c. Advertising for those purposes will cease and no long incite violence as seen in the successful lawsuit against Remington.
d. Their use in self-defense as an excuse for ownership will be curtailed. Studying the gun world internet, we find that many think a revolver with 5 shots is enough. Those who are for more are seen as paranoid or commando wannabees. As the late Joe Biden noted, a double barreled shotgun fired in the area should suffice. Those are available after background checks in most states.
e. The accessory industry will be diminished and restricted to law enforcement and military. Their advertisements that promote the killing efficiency of lasers, lights and bullet types will cease. No longer will ammo companies promote bullets for modern sporting rifles that are Purpose Built for Deadly Intent.
f. We expect that as societal views change, those with hidden guns will be reported to the appropriate authorities under the Red Flag laws. We thank ex-President Trump for challenging them in his one term in office.
g. When you pass on, we expect that spouses and heirs will turn in the modern sporting rifles in a timely manner as proscribed in the law.

We understand that some felt that the modern sporting rifle was necessary to protect against tyranny and/or protect minorities against a resurgence of hateful actions. However, our electoral victories have moved the country away from such. Rather than starting an arms race between minorities and racists, we chose to remove or reduce the arms in question. It may take sometime, but a slow process will reduce the population and usage of such guns. Strolling into Walmart will not be a possibility.

We refuse to allow weapons of war, now known as modern sporting rifles, to terrorize our countries.

Again, thank you for clarifying the difference between an assault rifle or weapon and a modern sporting rifle.

Regards

Liz and Nancy.

------------------------

My point, the terminology debate can lead to correct terminology in the bans. So you won that battle and lost the war. Great.
 
...some random thoughts, but valid points...
Random, yes. Valid, not necessarily.

the right to keep and bear arms, whatever they might be, "shall not be infringed". But that all ended in 1934 with the Gun Control Act of 1934. Machine guns, short barreled rifles & shotguns, etc, became regulated. Regulation, no matter how you define it, is infringement.
Regulation is infringement, but the 1934 gun control act isn't the first. Back in the 1800s, a federal gun ban was imposed on blacks, particularly the newly freed slaves. Gun control isn't about security of the people. It's about controlling the people.

So, we have already gone down that road.
Doesn't mean it's the right road. Before America gained it's independence, the rights of people were infringed by the institution of legal slavery. Should we have then continued down that road?

Such a big deal is made about Universal Background Checks.
We'll come back to this.

Aren't all handguns, post 1899, subject to this already?
No. Sales of handguns have more restrictions than long guns by federal law. However, by federal law, a background check isn't required for a private sale. However, the seller is forbidden to sell any firearm to anyone they have reason to suspect is a forbidden person.

Where federal handgun law differs from long arm law is that when purchasing a handgun from a dealer, the purchaser must be at least 21. The transferer and and transferee must both be residents of the state in which the transfer (whether it's a sale or gift) takes place. Long gun transfers are a little more lax because of the "sporting purposes" nonsense.


it is nice to have the option of going to a gun show, and purchasing a long arm, should I desire to do so, without a paper trail...
If you buy from a private party, yes. However, a dealer cannot transfer a firearm to you without filling out the proper paperwork and calling in a background check.

...a paper trail can lead to registration and potential confiscation...
Filling out a Form 4473 records the sale at the point of sale, but does not register the firearm. One thing TV shows and movies get wrong- LEOs cannot call up the BATF and find out who was the original purchaser of a firearm. They have to call the maker who directs them to the distributor who directs them to the shop it was shipped to. They then have to go to the shop and search through the form 4473s. The, they have to go to the original purchaser and see if they still have that firearm. If the government wants to use the Form 4473s for mass confiscation, they'll have their work cut out for them.

IF you already have Gun Control Acts, which already have infringed the rights of law abiding citizens, why is such a big deal made about banning assault weapons?
That's like asking why if you aren't allowed to hit a bully back, why is it a big deal to give up your shoes so you can't run away- or better still- chase the bully down?

However, "assault weapons" can mean anything tyrants wants it to.

If you control the language, you control the argument
If you control the argument, you control information
If you control information, you control history
If you control history, you control the past
He who controls the past controls the future.” – Big Brother, 1984


A tyrant can find a way for all firearms to be defined as an "assault weapon". That's just for starters. Next thing you know, steak knives will have to have rounded points and you'll need to be 21 to shop for tableware.

Again, like I said, I don't agree with paperwork and banning and infringement, but if this needs to be done, I don't have a problem with that per se.
Why would it need to be done? The majority of firearms are owned by law abiding Americans and the majority of Americans are law abiding. Why would we need to ban something the majority of Americans do not use to commit crime? That would leave them defenseless against the small minority who are violent criminals?

And here's why? What purpose do they serve other than to fire many shots in a short period of time? Can anyone explain why they are necessary over other available firearms, other than they could be fun to shoot? No real sportsmanship there, no skill in improving target practice skills, no needed for hunting or even self defense. I would still keep my nose out of this except for I think that the cause was really really damaged or hurt when the term "assault" was used to define many such weapons.
Here is your most invalid point of all. A simple bit of research will show you how wrong you are on this point.

Such a big deal is made about Universal Background Checks.
You don't think background checks are a big deal? Fine. Let's roll out the background checks. Computers are used everyday for criminal purposes, to commit fraud, theft, violence, rape, illegal sex acts against minors, terrorism, cannibalism, human trafficking, illicit drug trade and other vicious and depraved acts. Before anyone can have a computer device transferred to them, they must go to a licensed dealer, be at least 18 years old and pass a background check. Because certain features are not suitable for the purposes of entertainment or connecting to any source of information not approved by the government, they will be strictly prohibited or cannot be transferred without an extensive background check, possession of the proper paperwork and the payment of a $200 tax.

However, I would compromise on "universal background checks" with the following-
-Sporting clause is struck down from the GCA of 1968. Our Second Amendment is about defense of our persons, families, communities and nation. Not busting clay pigeons at the country club or duck hunting.
-Short barreled rifles and shoguns be removed from the NFA and reclassified simply as "handguns". Attaching a buttstock would no longer require a tax stamp.
-Remove silencers from the NFA and treated as another accessory.
-Open the machinegun registry to new machineguns.
-CCWs of one state recognized by all- the same as states driver's licenses
-No information about the firearm being transferred is to be given other than if it's a long arm, pistol or other.
-Private parties must be able to call NICS with the tranferer's and transferee's information to get approval. Private party sales need not go through an FFL.
Most important of all-
-All candidates, politicians holding office and all their staff, whether direct hires, contractors or consultants, must pass the same background check and a drug test. Actually, they should have to pass the same background check and drug screening as law enforcement officers.

True compromise is about give and take. We've given and they've taken. Now, it's time we demand they give us something. The above is the minimum for a reasonable dialogue about background checks.
 
There is no definition for "mass shooting".

From the Rand Corporation-
In the 1980s, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) defined mass murderer as someone who “kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location” (Krouse and Richardson, 2015). However, the government has never defined mass shooting as a separate category, and there is not yet a universally accepted definition of the term. Thus, media outlets, academic researchers, and law enforcement agencies frequently use different definitions when discussing mass shootings, which can complicate our understanding of mass shooting trends and their relationship to gun policy.
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/mass-shootings.html

As to the claim that we never had a "mass shooting" before 1967, that is clearly not true. If we use the same definition for a "mass murderer" where four or more victims are killed, we had a mass shooting in 1770 when eight British soldiers open fire on a group of Americans in Boston, killing three immediately and wounding several others, two of whom later died of their wounds.
 
My experience is often, but not always, when at the range, the goal with assault weapons is to fire fairly rapidly and if most hit the target it's considered great shooting.
To me, an "assault weapon" is an automatic.

But the reason I'm replying is when I go to the range, if I look at other folks' targets IN THE HANDGUN SECTION, they are pretty much all spray-and-pray shooting. The only thing I can figure is that these folks just go to the range to blow off steam, they are not there to develop their shooting skills.
 
If you concede the terms of debate, you concede the debate.

This is definitely part of why we shouldn't be trying to salvage something bigger by coming to the table to bargain away something else. The antis control the narrative already, but worse yet, they want this debate to be done amidst a backdrop of national tragedy, and they just so happen to have two concurrent "mass" shootings to do that.
 
This is definitely part of why we shouldn't be trying to salvage something bigger by coming to the table to bargain away something else. The antis control the narrative already, but worse yet, they want this debate to be done amidst a backdrop of national tragedy, and they just so happen to have two concurrent "mass" shootings to do that.
Exactly.

What are THEY "offering"? NOTHING.
What CAN they "offer"? NOTHING.

If David Duke was in Congress demanding a return to Jim Crow, what should I seek in return? What would it matter what he offered if I capitulated?
 
To me, an "assault weapon" is an automatic.

But the reason I'm replying is when I go to the range, if I look at other folks' targets IN THE HANDGUN SECTION, they are pretty much all spray-and-pray shooting. The only thing I can figure is that these folks just go to the range to blow off steam, they are not there to develop their shooting skills.
An "assault weapon" is whatever some authoritarian busybody wants to ban, from a .22lr Thompson Center Contender to a Barrett .50.
 
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