Longest distance to master

Walkalong said:

Varminterror said:

Run, hide, fight.

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Yep, it's not just for active shooter.

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Also very applicable when my wife beats me to the mailbox on gun-stuff-delivery days...

I've been thinking about this thread a good bit since I posted a response a day or so ago. Here's what I've come to realize. We can hash all of this out for endless hours, but the truth is, there is no absolute or perfect way to practice for self defense that would cover all situations that may arise. There are many factors that would come into play in a true life situation that you just cannot prepare for like nerves, noise, being around people, moving targets, etc. Nerves may be the hardest thing to prepare for. There are tons of documented cases of cops who were classified as marksman that couldn't hit a human size target at 7-10 yards in the heat of battle. I know a guy real well that can shoot 2" groups at 200 yards with his deer rifle but can't hit a deer at 100 yards. "Buck fever" gets him every time. Noise can play a huge factor. While I would never recommend shooting without ear protection, everyone should shoot at least 4-5 shots with no hearing protection just to see what your gun sounds like. Its nothing like you hear with your muffs in place. The surprise "loud bang" the first time you shoot could totally mess up a self defense situation if it catches you by surprise. There are just so many different factors that you can't practice for. My suggestion and you can take it or ignore it, is to know your sd gun inside and out. Know what you can do with it and what you can't do. Should you practice at long range? Certainly. The better you are at long range, the better you are a short range. Practice different positions. One thing I don't do is practice with my weak hand nearly enough. I always remember the quote I think was made by Ben Hogan referring to gold, but it goes with shooting as well. "The more I practice, the luckier I get". You can't practice too much, but first find a gun that you shoot accurate. A magnum caliber might be the worst choice you can make. If you can't hit what you are shooting at and at the same time can't make follow up shots accurately and fast, then you probably have the wrong gun. Sorry for the long ramble, but this thread has got me thinking and I am going to change the way I practice. I hope and pray I never have to put a gun in my hand to protect myself or someone else, but if the situation does come about, I will know what I am capable of doing and what I can't.

murf said:

suggest you get confident shooting your pistol as far out as you can at a man-sized target. you never know when you will get stuck with that pistol in a rifle fight.

mastering your gun at 50 yards is a fine idea. that will make shots at 25 yards a piece-of-cake.

luck,

murf

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I for one couldn't agree more Murf ......2 weeks ago a family member and myself were shooting clays, then we went to the dueling trees on the pistol range at 22 yds, after mixing it up there with the 9mm, 45acp,and 44 mag revolvers , we took them to the rifle range 200 yds, and 300 yds, and the steel pig on the hill at 340 yds.. we have been doing this a lot lately and it's a blast , the thought of having to go up against a rifleman is a chilling thought , and if it happens I don't want to be blind..........Take Care Murf .....BB....

Eddietruett said:

I've been thinking about this thread a good bit since I posted a response a day or so ago. Here's what I've come to realize. We can hash all of this out for endless hours, but the truth is, there is no absolute or perfect way to practice for self defense that would cover all situations that may arise. There are many factors that would come into play in a true life situation that you just cannot prepare for like nerves, noise, being around people, moving targets, etc. Nerves may be the hardest thing to prepare for. There are tons of documented cases of cops who were classified as marksman that couldn't hit a human size target at 7-10 yards in the heat of battle. I know a guy real well that can shoot 2" groups at 200 yards with his deer rifle but can't hit a deer at 100 yards. "Buck fever" gets him every time. Noise can play a huge factor. While I would never recommend shooting without ear protection, everyone should shoot at least 4-5 shots with no hearing protection just to see what your gun sounds like. Its nothing like you hear with your muffs in place. The surprise "loud bang" the first time you shoot could totally mess up a self defense situation if it catches you by surprise. There are just so many different factors that you can't practice for. My suggestion and you can take it or ignore it, is to know your sd gun inside and out. Know what you can do with it and what you can't do. Should you practice at long range? Certainly. The better you are at long range, the better you are a short range. Practice different positions. One thing I don't do is practice with my weak hand nearly enough. I always remember the quote I think was made by Ben Hogan referring to gold, but it goes with shooting as well. "The more I practice, the luckier I get". You can't practice too much, but first find a gun that you shoot accurate. A magnum caliber might be the worst choice you can make. If you can't hit what you are shooting at and at the same time can't make follow up shots accurately and fast, then you probably have the wrong gun. Sorry for the long ramble, but this thread has got me thinking and I am going to change the way I practice. I hope and pray I never have to put a gun in my hand to protect myself or someone else, but if the situation does come about, I will know what I am capable of doing and what I can't.

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Jerry miculek ..made a 1000 yd shot with a 929 9mm if I remember correctly.........
Always wear hearing protection Eddie , anyone who has been to a range knows how loud guns are with and without hearing protection, permanent damage will occur......
Hope and pray we all do Eddie , but then there is a thing called reality............twice in my lifetime I was looking down the wrong end of reality...... and I can tell you from personal experience it's a hair stander upper......
Remember no limits to do so only cheats oneself.....does it not? .....go buy a buckmark or a ruger 22 ..cause it's cheap and accurate practice and mix in some bigger calibers too.....
Good luck and take care ......

I selected 25 yards because that is the longest distance available to me at the local indoor ranges where I live now in SoCal. When I lived in Oregon I had a great outdoor shooting area that I could practice at different ranges.
Unless I was shooting a revolver single action with a 6” or 7.5” barrel my accuracy wasn’t all that great past 25-30 yards anyway. Past 50 yards my accuracy was definitely nothing to brag about regardless of handgun. But, I was shooting while standing without resting the handgun against anything.

I have discovered recently that I need to rethink my pistol and revolver sights. Even though I have crappy eyesight, I have worn glasses all my life, I have always been able to keep the front sight in focus. Now I find the black front sights on my revolvers no longer cut it any more. Unless my target is brightly lit or a bright color I have a terrible time seeing the front sight. So, my distance shooting has a new limitation.

“A man has got to know his limitations.” - Clint Eastwood as Harry Callahan

At the range I shoot one handed at 25 yards 85% of the time. However before I leave I usually join in with a group of guys that set up interesting targets like tennis balls & empty cartridge boxes (sometimes even golf balls & fired 12 gauge shells are used) at 60+ yards, This type of shooting is usually done two handed but one handed is done also. For these friendly contests I use whatever I want to use that day including 44 Magnum, 357 Magnum, 38 Special, 45 ACP & 22 LR..

Like others I too find that at the longer distances trigger squeeze issues are more pronounced & that long range practice helps improve shooting at shorter distances. After you destroy a tennis ball at 60 yards a 25 yard target feels like a piece of cake.

I practice at 7, 10 and 15 yards.

IMHO, long range practice can be bad if it slows you down and causes you to start using "target" rather than combat sight picture and trigger control.

cheygriz said:

I practice at 7, 10 and 15 yards.

IMHO, long range practice can be bad if it slows you down and causes you to start using "target" rather than combat sight picture and trigger control.

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Making shots at different distances requires seeing different things. And that's true even excluding long range stuff. If you are shooting a 3 yard target (or real-life assailant) with the same sight picture and visual attention as a 12 yard target, you are either going to have unreliable hits on the 12 yard target or be terribly slow at 3 yards compared to what you should be capable of.

There's simply no such thing as learning one sight picture or one level of trigger control and being a truly capable handgun shooter. Competitive practical shooting teaches that to people really quickly.

Go to a shooting range. Shoot at a target. If you think the group is too big, move the target closer, or use a different gun or ammo. When satisfied, move the target out a bit and repeat. Continue until it becomes aggravating rather than fun.

I continually wonder why folks rely on other’s opinions, rather than trusting their own experience and abilities. If one is competing in bullseye or other formal competitions, “excellence” is easily determined by rankings in a match. If one is losing sleep over being able to survive an actual gunfight, one should invest in a formal training program, Gunsite, etc., provided by recognized experts.

I don’t know what you and your gun/ ammo are capable of. It would be presumptuous and foolish for me to set parameters for you.

Shoot often, improve your performance as measured by your own goals. Life is too short to always be trying to meet someone else’s criteria.

Walkalong said:

I do not practice at longer range in case of self defense, I practice/shoot at longer ranges because it is fun/challenging, and it will make you a better shooter up close.

If it is long range, you are not in a self defense situation, the odds are about a billion to one someone will be shooting at you with a rifle from long range. And if they are, your best option is cover/ leaving the vicinity.


Exactly.

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I wholeheartedly agree about the fun / challengeing thing .......But I disagree on the odds thing.....
In the late seventies I had the unpleasant experience of your billion to one encounter , a man with a rifle . The man standing next to me , who I was talking to at the time , took multiple hits , 6 if I remember correctly.. ....it's funny how you will remember certain things , like the look on people's faces.........but I will tell you with certainty I will never ever forget how cool and calm the shooter was , his background I will most likely never know but this wasn't the first time ...he was to smooth ...........there's actually a lot more to this story, twists and all , but that was a long time ago.....
Take care everybody....and Happy range times....and as always good fortune

I voted 50 yards because that'd be about as far as I'd shoot hunting, if I did hand gun hunt.
Obviously, in my case, that would be supported in some fashion.

Beach Bum said:

Jerry miculek ..made a 1000 yd shot with a 929 9mm if I remember correctly.........
Always wear hearing protection Eddie , anyone who has been to a range knows how loud guns are with and without hearing protection, permanent damage will occur....

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I wasn't recommending that anyone shoot regularly without hearing protection, but at least once you should try a combat situation and get the feel of a gun going off without protection.
I really hurt my hearing 40+ years ago shooting skeet every weekend with no protection. I even wear protection these days when shooting .22's. But everyone should know what their sd gun sounds like so in a case of sd, you won't be shocked by the difference in the sound.

Eddietruett said:

I wasn't recommending that anyone shoot regularly without hearing protection, but at least once you should try a combat situation and get the feel of a gun going off without protection.
I really hurt my hearing 40+ years ago shooting skeet every weekend with no protection. I even wear protection these days when shooting .22's. But everyone should know what their sd gun sounds like so in a case of sd, you won't be shocked by the difference in the sound.

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Yes, that and try to shoot some in the dark or low light, muzzle flash will be an eye opener (actually more like a flash bulb).
I have turned the lights off at a club 22LR only indoor range to shoot in total darkness and with a flashlight as practice.
Haven't done that in a while though, no range available anymore .

Any flashlight needs to be held off to the side so as not to become an aiming point for the bad guy and the pulsing mode that all flashlights have now can be used to disorient a bad guy.
Have someone try that pulse on you or do it with a mirror to experience it's effects.

I'm NOT recommending you shine a flashlight at a shooter, just some training options .

edit: and practice this from behind cover.

I've shot out to 200 yards with a Smith 14-2 and 130gr. ball.

It had no tactical purpose, just recreating what was done at a Louisville gun club before WWI.

Short answer: The farther, the better.

Start with small steps, that is, short range, and work from there. Let’s not forget that most lethal encounters are at very short range, and require decisiveness and footwork, to dominate the scene. Prioritize preparation for the more-likely scenario.

Some thoughts:

1. In the context of engaging a rifle-armed opponent, the farther the better, when it comes to long-range capability with one’s carry weapon.

2. If one is often in wide-open areas, the farther the better.

3. As one ages, so that moving from cover to cover, and performing evasive maneuvers, becomes problematic, the farther the better.

FWIW, during the time I carried a patrol rifle, while working for Houston PD, my longest measured distance, when dealing with a barricaded suspect, was about 35 yards, in a parking lot, from the door of the apartment. The SWAT sniper, who relieved me, and liked my position of cover, lasered the distance. Obviously, a rifle-armed suspect is dangerous well beyond 35 yards; my point is that I was able to work myself that close, without being within line-of-sight of that apartment door, for more than a quick moment at a time. Other special-threat incidents, that I recall, looked to be at similar distances, give or take a few yards. I have often said that I live in a 40-yard world, in discussions about engagement distances.

A particularly crazy incident, in which a lawyer when nuts, and started shooting at morning commuters in his own neighborhood, was actually resolved by a sergeant and an officer, who flanked the bad guy, and hosed him with AR15 patrol rifle fire at very close range. Other officers, who were keeping the suspect pinned-down, were using rifles and pistols, and perhaps shotguns, without hitting anything, from half a city block away. The suspect had a huge oak tree for cover, so he was well-protected from the officer half a block away, but vulnerable to a flanking movement that cut through mid-block. A couple of other officers were working their way, from cover to cover, and may well have very courageously taken the suspect, at very close distance, but the sergeant and officer with patrol rifles reached a favorable position, first. (This incident happened in my “beat,” just after my 2200-0600 shift, about 0625, but I had not actually worked the night before the incident, anyway.) This one made the national and international news feeds, and was misrepresented as a “mall shooting,” as a prominent shopping center was used as a staging area. The actual shots were fired in a residential area, a block away. Notably, we shop for groceries, pet supplies, and bicycle stuff in that shopping center. Something woke me at about the time of the shooting, though by the time I stepped outside, all I could hear was the drone of commuter traffic. Close to home!

Here is a link, for a news story of the incident I mentioned.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...illed-after-shooting-several-people/91108136/

I used to own and hunt with a Dan Wesson model 15, and had both an 8" and 2" barrel with it, with the 2" I limited my shooting to 15 yds.. I regularly hunted rabbits, deer and hogs out to 100 yds with the scoped 8" barrel and never lost an animal. I now have a Model 40 in 357Max and easily hit the 200 yd gong with the 6" barrel, I also have two 8" barrels, one scoped one plain and a 10" barrel, each has it's specific uses and depends on my shooting desire at the time. Try the longer ranges and get comfortable, but do most practice at the practical ranges you would be most assured to hit at.

I would be 100% confident shooting a deer size animal at 100 yards with my 8 3/8" Model 686 that has a Red Dot Tube Mounted off a rest. I just don't have confidence in bullet expansion at that distance with handgun velocity. All I have ever tested is a 158gr JHP pushed pretty darn hard shooting water jugs at 100 yards. While certainly not scientific, the consistency of expansion was not good enough for me. Penetration was fairly consistent but expansion varied quite a bit. At 75 yards it was a completely different world. Expansion was a lot more consistent. Maybe with ballistic gel or even real life animals it would be better, but if I don't have confidence, I'm not going to risk wounding an animal. As for Hogs, I would never trust a .357 to penetrate a grown size hog at more than 50 yards with handgun velocity. With a rifle it would be a different story on deer as well as hogs.

When I apply the term "mastery" to defensive/tactical use of a handgun, I must limit the distance to 50 yards. This is the distance I can rapidly place at least 75% of the shots from my service handgun into the kill zone of a human. I would consider this "mastery". With careful aimed fire, I do practice to 100 yards, but IMHO 50 is where effective rapid fire ends and you get into a different type of handgun marksmanship that would serve you well on an IHMSA silhouette course or the deer woods...or engaging a distant threat with the gun you have. With a "heavy" .357 you can absolutely make carefully aimed hits to 200m, they do it all the time in IHMSA.

When I serve security duty, we are trained to engage targets up to 100 yards with a handgun, but beyond 50 yards this is standoff deployment from concealment or cover with carefully aimed shots. This training is also geared more towards stalling or isolating the threat until a good guy with a rifle can engage effectively. In this envelope, we are operating in rural settings with lots of things that do not mix with bullets present so fire discipline is stressed. We do not have dedicated security, rather regular line workers are trained and pulling double duty with a sidearm, hence the standoff tactics at longer distances with sidearms. In times of increased threat level, we occasionally deploy dedicated overwatch and/or carbines, and these are the proper tools for engaging more distant threats.

As for .357 revolvers, there are different animals to consider. Are you talking an ultralight snubby, 4" service revolver, or a longer hunting arm. All have different levels of inherent accuracy and controllability. I know with my wife's Taurus snubby, 50 yard minute of silhouette is absolutely attainable, but it is much easier with my 6" M66, which also serves me well on the Field pistol silhouette course to 100m.

In my younger days when I competed in IHMSA Silhouette, I practiced out to 200 meters with my revolver for standing class. But, most of my practice was at 50 and 100 meters.

I also shot unlimited, production and revolver class here and there.

Now a days, I shoot between 10 to 25 yards depending on how far down range I want to place my targets at my back yard range.

Besides shooting at paper, I have a number of metal targets that I use. I can get lots of hit without going down range to change the targets.

I voted 50 yards but not over 50 yards because of the limitations at the range I shoot at. I think the further you can shoot accurately the better overall shot you are. There is nothing wrong with trying to master the trigger control needed to shoot well at those distances. (all IMO of course)

At home in France we often shoot revolver 357m / 44m to 100 m on gongs I have more pleasure to touch a gong to 100 m than to make a 10 to 25 m

murf said:

suggest you get confident shooting your pistol as far out as you can at a man-sized target. you never know when you will get stuck with that pistol in a rifle fight.

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This. Lots of buildings, or other places with insufficient cover for 50, or 200 yards. You don't need to "master" any distance, but just know how far away you can hit a man-sized object, under what circumstances. Then, if you must defend yourself in that, you don't go "oh, noes! I only practices to 7 yards, better wait till they close."

I do handgun practice mostly at 1-10 yards (and work on accuracy, so hit tiny parts of the target). But I open up to say 25 before the end of every session, and a few times a year shoot to 50-75. I am not better than that, so don't generally try further. But then I know, if it comes up. And once or twice in FOF training I've used the extended range to annoyingly (to the opfor) good effect, when others just sat there not engaging. Knowing capabilities: good!

The longest shots I regularly trained for were 50 yard shots. I did sneak over to the 100 yard range if no one was at the range and send a few downrange at paper plates. I never truly felt comfortable past 60-65 yards with my .45's, at that point I was thinking a long gun wss a better choice for serious work.