Understanding "Stand Your Ground" Law

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Even before FL SYG, if McGlockton had still been moving towards Drejka, it would have been a good shoot because he was on the ground and unable to retreat.

The fact the McGlockton was moving away makes it a bad shoot regardless of SYG.

We can't speak in absolutes when talking self defense. What is the reasonable belief that Drejka would have sustained serious bodily injury or death if he had been assaulted on the ground. There are plenty of examples of that NOT occuring, just as there are plenty of examples of it occurring. What are the articulable objective facts and reasonable subjective beliefs leading Drejka to believe that he faced a threat of serious bodily injury or death? The mere fact he has been knocked to the ground is not enough to support a belief of death or serious bodily injury.

The same is true of McGlockton moving away. What if McGlockton was backing up to grab a bat or tire iron? Obviously this would lead to Drejka's reasonable belief he was at risk of serious bodily injury or death.

Drejka had a VERBAL argument with the deceased girlfriend. Not the deceased. He did not instigate anything against the deceased,The deceased also had a post criminal record (not allowed) But somehow Drejkas past issues were allowed??
A verbal argument with the girlfriend does not give the boyfriend the right to assault him.
So by the ruling he should have just let the bigger younger man slam him to the ground, and await further assault and cower in fear??

The deceased slammed Drejka to the ground. Drejka was "in fear of his life"
What happened in that split second is debatable but unfortunately the case was more political and racial than just stand your ground, and that is just the way it is.

Being slammed to the ground does not normally equate "fear for you life" in and of itself. Could it be part of the articulable facts and reasonable subjective beliefs leading to that fear, absolutely, but absent anything else by itself being shoved to the ground isn't normally considered deadly force.

Old man gets pushed to the ground by a bigger and younger guy? Expect to get shot.

Again what are the other facts and reasonable subjective beliefs besides just getting pushed to the ground. Eagle scout pushes his elderly grandfather to the ground to avoid a car careening through the parking lot. Grandpa is good to go with lighting his grandson up?
 
In some states out west, we have a legal situation called "Fighting Words." i.e., ac hateful verbal attack CAN be a defence for non-lethal use of force.

In this case, if the deceased had told the attacker to back off, and leave his GF alone, failure by the attacker to do so would most certainly provide a moral justification for a non-lethal physical response.

I would certainly shove, or punch out any jack-wagon that was verbally assaulting my wife if he failed to respond to my threat.

Much of our law is based on the premise of what would a reasonable, prudent man do?

I think any reasonable prudent man will come to the defence of his loved ones when they are being assaulted, even if only verbally.
 
So by the ruling he should have just let the bigger younger man slam him to the ground, and await further assault and cower in fear??
IMO, had he been able to respond quickly enough, he could have drawn, and perhaps fired to prevent being attacked in the first place. He could also have fired to prevent McGlockton from pressing the attack after he pushed him to the ground except that McGlockton didn't press the attack.
The deceased slammed Drejka to the ground. Drejka was "in fear of his life".
The deceased was clearly not continuing the attack and had withdrawn far enough from Drejka that he was no longer an immediate physical threat. In fact, he was turning away from Drejka and appeared to be in the process of withdrawing further when he was shot.

It doesn't look like self-defense to me.

Just because justification for the use of force exists at one point in a situation doesn't mean that it persists throughout the situation.

The key concept is that justified deadly force is about PREVENTION, it is about preventing imminent death or serious injury. It doesn't allow one citizen to PUNISH another for an act that they have committed in the past, however heinous.

The law doesn't let citizens use deadly force against a person for something they DID. It allows them to use deadly force against a person to STOP them from causing serious injury or death.

There's nothing in the video that suggests that McGlockton was pressing the attack, in fact, it's clear that he has withdrawn after pushing Drejka down and is turning away. That makes justifying Drejka's shot very difficult.
 
The defendant did have a lawful right to protect himself, however, he could not employ deadly force without first disengaging from the event since he instituted the altercation,
He did not initiate the fight by being the initial aggressor.

Nor was he a provocateur, legally--that would have involved a knowing, willful, and deliberate attempt to goad the attacker into attacking, in order to create an opportunity for using force and claiming self defense.

What if McGlockton was backing up to grab a bat or tire iron? Obviously this would lead to Drejka's reasonable belief he was at risk of serious bodily injury or death.
Mere speculation is not evidence that an imminent threat exists.

I would certainly shove, or punch out any jack-wagon that was verbally assaulting my wife if he failed to respond to my threat.

You have just posted, on a public forum, a statement that you would commit a criminal act.

Much of our law is based on the premise of what would a reasonable, prudent man do?

Yes, and reasonable means lawful, and in accordance with the black letter law and the jury instructions in which both the black letter law and case law are embodied

IMO, had he been able to respond quickly enough, he could have drawn, and perhaps fired to prevent being attacked in the first place. He could also have fired to prevent McGlockton from pressing the attack after he pushed him to the ground except that McGlockton didn't press the attack. The deceased was clearly not continuing the attack and had withdrawn far enough from Drejka that he was no longer an immediate physical threat. In fact, he was turning away from Drejka and appeared to be in the process of withdrawing further when he was shot.

It doesn't look like self-defense to me.

Just because justification for the use of force exists at one point in a situation doesn't mean that it persists throughout the situation.

There's nothing in the video that suggests that McGlockton was pressing the attack, in fact, it's clear that he has withdrawn after pushing Drejka down and is turning away. That makes justifying Drejka's shot very difficult.
That's how I see it.
 
Again what are the other facts and reasonable subjective beliefs besides just getting pushed to the ground. Eagle scout pushes his elderly grandfather to the ground to avoid a car careening through the parking lot. Grandpa is good to go with lighting his grandson up?

Mens Rea. Will full constitution to commit a crime. Man was attacked from behind by a stronger and younger opponent. Anyone pushing another out of harms way does not constitute a mind frame to commit a crime.
 
Our overall input in this case suggest most if not all would agree the defendant employed deadly force illegally when the victim stopped the attack and backed away when the defendant drew and pointed his weapon at the victim. There was certainly time (albeit only a few seconds) for evaluation as to not shoot, however, the defendant considered the circumstances incorrectly and unlawfully shot the victim.

Where our analysis diverges is the synthesis of the interaction between the female standing by the car and the defendant and how it addresses the law of self defense. Caveat: I haven’t read the trial transcript....... but I would volunteer jury instructions, at the request of the prosecution, addressed the importance of this initial activity as a guide to their verdict. If the jury found within their deliberations the defendant was the instigator and precipitated the outcome, only a guilty verdict could follow. Some entries summarily dismiss this aspect of the fact scenario, but it should be the crux of the matter.
 
He did not initiate the fight by being the initial aggressor.

You are really sticking by this. I didn't originally want to make this personal, but it scares me that people like you walk the streets armed. You defend the indefensible. You advocate killing a man for protecting his wife. Any reasonable husband would act in a similar manner. Any husband that would not...I feel sorry for his wife. You truly believe it is okay to yell and scream at a man's wife and then murder her husband for shielding her from you.

Maybe we do need some more gun control and background checks.
 
In some states out west, we have a legal situation called "Fighting Words." i.e., ac hateful verbal attack CAN be a defence for non-lethal use of force.

In this case, if the deceased had told the attacker to back off, and leave his GF alone, failure by the attacker to do so would most certainly provide a moral justification for a non-lethal physical response.

I would certainly shove, or punch out any jack-wagon that was verbally assaulting my wife if he failed to respond to my threat.

Much of our law is based on the premise of what would a reasonable, prudent man do?

I think any reasonable prudent man will come to the defence of his loved ones when they are being assaulted, even if only verbally.

You are distorting the caselaw here--the Supreme Court case involving "fighting words" was Chaplinsky v. NH where a person was charged with disorderly conduct BY THE POLICE for calling someone a racketeer and a g_ d_ fascist in public. There is not a doctrine that allows people to use physical force or threaten to do so against others for insults, even if those insults are directed at loved ones, and have oneself protected from assault and battery charges. Fighting words dealt with an exception to the 1st Amendment on disorderly conduct charges where a defendant's words were likely to cause an immediate breach of the peace.

Chaplinsky was charged with this and his defense was that the First Amendment protected his right from being arrested for mere words. The Supreme Court, during WWII, declined to overturn the conviction because it supported the police in that the particular words uttered could have spurred a fight. Had someone punched Chaplinsky in the nose for those words, that person would have been charged with assault--not given an affirmative self defense. Thus, fighting words, words intended to cause an immediate breach of the peace, are not protected from the police--that does not apply to individuals having the right to punch someone in the nose because their lady was insulted, called names, etc.

Self defense gets a bit sticky when you are coming to the aid of others and depending on just exactly what was said etc. and did the victim hear it, etc. In other words, you have to use the same reasonable force calculation for the victim in beginning the physical fight that the convicted guy used to reply with lethal force. You got it right that someone could reply with words like back off, I gonna get security if you don't stop hassling my old lady. It would not be legal to say I am going to clean your clock. Likewise, itt is not legal to punch someone in the nose or shove them etc. in response to words unless the content and other circumstances of those words indicate that the other person is about to launch or did launch a physical attack in response to words.

Quite a few people appear cavalier about punches, throwing someone to the ground, etc. but each of those could and have had lethal effect if the confrontation went badly. I can give you several cases where just that event has happened, particularly in bar fights. If the convicted guy fell and hit his head/died as a result of being shoved then the victim would have been in prison for manslaughter unless he could prove self defense to the satisfaction of the judge and jury. The motto sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me comes to mind.

Could the deceased have legally used force to repel an assault (not insults, not yelling, etc per se)? Possibly, but a reasonable objective belief that the person threatened to use force against another--loud words, leaning into the car, balling one's fist, etc. that would signal an imminent attack. One might or might not be considered reasonable by the jury.

A guy loudly threatening to call the cops on a girlfriend or even calling her names for parking in a handicapped parking place but otherwise not showing any signs of an imminent physical attack-not so much. You would be the aggressor in the second situation. From the brief survey of news coverage on the case, it appears mostly to concentrate on the video rather than the altercation that began the sequence of events and reading the previous posts have not brought out what was said, what was implied, etc.

Now, could a police officer have arrested the guy for inciting a breach of the peace--maybe. That would depend on a whole lot of factors primarily dealing with what was the content of the speech. It would not be considered disorderly for example to threaten to call the cops on the woman, even if the person was yelling and using a few cuss words. Chaplinsky has not been overturned but a later case, Brandenburg narrowed the range significantly for disorderly conduct charges to define unprotected speech as words that threaten AN IMMEDIATE breach of the peace which also applies to context in which the speech was delivered.

Moral of the story, do not plan on using physical force or even threatening such against those insulting the ones that you love unless you can prove to a jury's satisfaction that the person was committing an assault or in the process of doing so. You might be betting your life on it.
 
You truly believe it is okay to yell and scream at a man's wife and then murder her husband for shielding her from you.
There is nothing in the video that suggests that McGlockton's wife was in any danger--she doesn't appear to be trying to retreat from Drejka at all--she actually gets out of her vehicle to talk to Drejka--not the actions of someone who is afraid. Being yelled at is not sufficient justification for using physical force and had McGlockton not been shot, he would almost certainly have been prosecuted and convicted for assault/battery for pushing Drejka down.

The idea that McGlockton was killed for "shielding" his girlfriend is not remotely consistent with what the video shows. He was shot while retreating after pushing Drejka down. He wasn't between Drejka and his girlfriend at the time he was shot and was moving away from both Drejka and his girlfriend.

The video is there to view, and I think it's important to look at it and take it for what it is rather than trying to make it fit a preconceived mental picture. By the way, here's a longer version of the video that shows more of the initial confrontation between Drejka and the girlfriend and goes past the fired shot. It gives a much better picture of what happened, including the girlfriend getting out of her vehicle and actually moving towards Drejka (not evidencing any fear) and McGlockton retreating before he was shot.

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

By the way, Kleanbore is CLEARLY not saying that Drejka's actions are justifiable. You can see in his post above yours that he agrees with my comment that says Drejka's actions were NOT self-defense. He's just pointing out that Drejka was not, by legal standards, "the initial aggressor". He did initiate the confrontation, but McGlockton was the aggressor--he initiated physical contact.

It's not necessarily SMART to go up to someone and tell them they're breaking the law, but that, in and of itself is not the same thing as being an aggressor (attacking someone) in any reasonable or legal sense. McGlockton was the one who initiated physical contact and attacked Drejka while Drejka and the girlfriend were talking.
 
I asked this yesterday. When does a threat cease to be a threat?

As a juror, I would've had a hard time with something like this case. Guy gets pushed to the ground, attacker is still within feet of him, he draws and at that second, attacker begins to retreat but is shot. Isn't it asking a lot of the guy on the ground to read that situation in an instant? I imagine myself on the ground, maybe stunned by the shove, looking up at my attacker (not the angle of the surveillance cam), and wondering if I could sense that that person is retreating and getting out of my zone quickly enough that I won't be attacked again. Making matters worse, maybe I'm firing as he begins to back up. I can't help that.

Had this not been in Florida/erroneously billed as a SYG media story and had the race angle, and had this not been caught on camera, I bet Drejka wouldn't have been convicted.
 
The key information in the article is in the third paragraph:
"In surveillance video played for the jury, McGlockton is seen emerging from the store and shoving Drejka to the ground. Seconds later, Drejka pulls out Glock .40-caliber handgun and shoots McGlockton, 28, as he turned away." (emphasis added)

I think the “key” would be “standing your ground” in an incident YOU created that would not have otherwise occurred had you not instigated it and subsequently escalated to the point where you killed someone. You don’t like where someone else parked, call someone responsible for enforcing the laws. Just because you can defend yourself doesn’t mean you should go looking to inject yourself into bad situations.
 
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I asked this yesterday. When does a threat cease to be a threat?
No need to overthink this. A threat ceases to be a threat when it ceases to be a threat.

The reasonable man standard is what is typically applied to determine if deadly force is justified. If, given the circumstances of the situation as observed by and understood by the person in question and at the time, that person was reasonably in fear of serious bodily injury or death then justification for deadly force existed.

In this case, McGlockton shoved Drejka down, and then, as seen in the video, immediately put his hands in his pockets. There was no move to continue the attack nor was there anything in McGlockton's posture or actions that suggested he was going to go after Drejka again. Then Drejka drew and McGlockton immediately began moving back and then turned partially away. At that point, from watching the video, in my opinion, Drejka had no good reason to think that McGlockton was continuing the attack and every reason to believe that he was retreating.

IMO, based on his actions in the video, Drejka shot McGlockton as retribution for pushing him to the ground, not because he was in fear of a continuing attack.

Honestly I think race had nothing to do with it, and if I had been on the jury, I would not have cleared Drejka. The video shows he shot when he didn't have to, and IN MY OPINION, he had sufficient time to make an accurate assessment of that fact between the time he drew and the time he shot.

Your points are good, and IF Drejka and his defense could have used those arguments to convince the jury, Drejka would have been acquitted. Obviously they did not/could not.
 
Man was attacked from behind by a stronger and younger opponent. Anyone pushing another out of harms way does not constitute a mind frame to commit a crime.

Okay good, so going back to my post, you are now providing additional facts and circumstances that might lead a reasonable person to believe a crime had occurred, was occuring, or might occur. My point in responding to your post, is you can't use the absolute of being shove to the ground as automatic deadly force. There needs to be a lot more articulation, and in this instance Drejka and his legal time did a horrible job it.

Quite a few people appear cavalier about punches, throwing someone to the ground, etc. but each of those could and have had lethal effect if the confrontation went badly. I can give you several cases where just that event has happened, particularly in bar fights. If the convicted guy fell and hit his head/died as a result of being shoved then the victim would have been in prison for manslaughter unless he could prove self defense to the satisfaction of the judge and jury.

The issue I see is that many are automatically equating by shoved to the ground with the threat of serious bodily injury or death. People get shoved and knocked down all the time, and very rarely does it result in SBI or death. Absent any other conduct by the deceased we have a simple assault. One that I hope no one on this forum would say was a threat of SBI or death. Is there a risk of SBI or death from a shove, yes but a reasonable person will be unlikely to say it is substantial enough to equate it to a deadly threat absent anything else.

As Drejka didn't take the stand to testify, we have no clue his reasonable belief of the situation at hand. Without any insight into what his beliefs were, how is a juror supposed to look at a shove in the parking lot as a threat of SBI or death?
 
The issue I see is that many are automatically equating by shoved to the ground with the threat of serious bodily injury or death.
I think that if the shot had been fired to PREVENT McGlockton from physically attacking Drejka, the case would have turned out differently.

It's not that pushing someone down isn't a serious threat, it's that AFTER it happens, it can no longer be used as justification for deadly force. You can't legally shoot someone for what they DID to you, justifiable deadly force is all about PREVENTION.
 
I hadn't seen the video of this since it hit the news several months ago. I remember that I thought that Drejka was toast, and turns out I was right. All of the SYG and race stuff has no bearing. We still teach in the academy that to employ lethal force, you must be able to articulate 3 things: motive, means and opportunity. McGlockton could have been argued to have had all three, UNTIL he clearly broke off hostilities. There was MORE than enough time to assess the situation and deduce that he was retreating. At that point, he pulled motive out of the equation. We could have had a case of a drawn gun ending an assault, but what we DO have is an unjustified shooting.

Neither of these 2 idiots were going to impress the world with their conflict management ability. McGlockton clearly started a physical altercation when he laid hands on Drejka, and we know how badly it went from there. I don't know about Florida law, and the next time I'm over in Pensacola on business I'll ask one of their officers, but here, had McGlockton survived, I would have charged him with Assault 2nd and it looks like Drejka would have gotten disorderly conduct. Wish we had audio, but cest la guere.

In short, you don't get to beat someone up for yelling at your wife, and you don't get to shoot someone who just pushed you to the ground after they backed off. There was at least one source when this broke that pointed out that these two morons knew each other, and that should scream VOLUMES about this interaction. McGlockton had no business laying hands on Drejka, and since McGlockton retreated, Drejka's next action should have been to re-holster after he left and called 911. What he did was turn an idiotic argument about a parking space into a felony conviction. Not the return on investment anybody wants.

For the record, since the link no longer had the video in question, here it is...
 
Okay good, so going back to my post, you are now providing additional facts and circumstances that might lead a reasonable person to believe a crime had occurred, was occuring, or might occur. My point in responding to your post, is you can't use the absolute of being shove to the ground as automatic deadly force. There needs to be a lot more articulation, and in this instance Drejka and his legal time did a horrible job it.



The issue I see is that many are automatically equating by shoved to the ground with the threat of serious bodily injury or death. People get shoved and knocked down all the time, and very rarely does it result in SBI or death. Absent any other conduct by the deceased we have a simple assault. One that I hope no one on this forum would say was a threat of SBI or death. Is there a risk of SBI or death from a shove, yes but a reasonable person will be unlikely to say it is substantial enough to equate it to a deadly threat absent anything else.

As Drejka didn't take the stand to testify, we have no clue his reasonable belief of the situation at hand. Without any insight into what his beliefs were, how is a juror supposed to look at a shove in the parking lot as a threat of SBI or death?

The point is that the "shove" itself involves the law of self defense--a shove versus another shove is proportional. Shoving someone to the ground because they argued with your girlfriend/wife can be itself unjustified use of force and assault as Charlie Horse notes above. JohnKa has the right of it that the time to have prevented the shove was over and due to the victim turning away, the assault was apparently over to the reasonable person-thus the living idiot was convicted of manslaughter because his actions no longer were to prevent or stop an assault in progress. Had he shot when the guy was shoving him at that moment? Not so clear what the jury would have done. However, the guy was retreating and apparently disengaging, then you call the cops and file a report instead of shooting. That smacks of retaliation.

Far too many people are cavalier about a use of force (punches, kicks, shoves) as rough street justice that they perceive is non-lethal. There have been a lot of people go to prison for that in the wrong set of circumstances if something happens to the other person or they end up dead/injured if the other person perceives their rough street justice as an assault and they reply in kind. Currently the news from CA has two parents arrested for charges of beating up, racial hate crimes, and kidnapping, when they caught an underaged boy in their underaged daughter's bedroom. What would be the implications for the "castle doctrine"? Not much, as they apparently went overboard in protecting their daughter if their arrests say anything.
 
Without any insight into what his beliefs were, how is a juror supposed to look at a shove in the parking lot as a threat of SBI or death?

For one thing, being pushed to the ground is potentially deadly but I don't want to quibble over that.
As for your question, I'd say that the lingering presence of the person, mere feet away while you're at a disadvantage of being off your feet, possibly stunned, could easily be seen as serious enough to warrant deadly force. In Drejka's case, I agree that he was shooting because he was angered not scared because of what precipitated the argument in the first place. But in general, I couldn't totally fault a guy for drawing and firing as quickly as possible in a similar case. The time between the shove, the gun being presented, to McGlockton moving backwards is literally seconds. That's not a lot of time for the person on the ground to read the entire situation. JMO, of course.

Also, to clarify: When I said this case might've gone differently had it not had the race angle to it, I meant that in the absence of it, along with the other elements SYG/Florida/video/etc), it wouldn't have made headlines and hurt this guy's case before it even went to trial. Having the national spotlight on you for shooting someone is never a benefit.
 
Had he shot when the guy was shoving him at that moment? Not so clear what the jury would have done.

I completely and utterly disagree on this point. At that juncture absent some other factor(s) that has not be articulated the shove is a simple assault. Complaint of pain or injury below that of SBI or death. Much as every bar fight that occurs where someone does NOT die or sustain SBI, parties aren't charged with attempted murder, as the reasonable belief of parties is that a punch/shove/kick is not deadly force. Do people die from them, yes absolutely. However until they do, there is nothing inherent in that action that rises to the level of deadly force by itself absent some additional factor(s) being articulated.

As for your question, I'd say that the lingering presence of the person, mere feet away while you're at a disadvantage of being off your feet, possibly stunned, could easily be seen as serious enough to warrant deadly force. In Drejka's case, I agree that he was shooting because he was angered not scared because of what precipitated the argument in the first place. But in general, I couldn't totally fault a guy for drawing and firing as quickly as possible in a similar case. The time between the shove, the gun being presented, to McGlockton moving backwards is literally seconds. That's not a lot of time for the person on the ground to read the entire situation. JMO, of course.

I agree that there are some articulateable factors, but Drejka's never got on the stand to say them. As a juror, I'm looking at a reasonably in shape 49 year old man who is knocked onto his side from a shove, not a tackle, or knocked down with a blow. The assailant makes no additional attempts to attack the Drejka (doesn't take mount, attempt to kick him etc). I would have a hard time finding for the defendant with those being the circumstances I'm being given.
 
...I'd say that the lingering presence of the person, mere feet away while you're at a disadvantage of being off your feet, possibly stunned, could easily be seen as serious enough to warrant deadly force.
I'm not aware of any deadly force law that would allow a person to use deadly force based merely on another person's presence, even when combined with significant disadvantage and a previous attack by the person in question--except perhaps if the person was present in the victim's residence after a break-in and the state is a Castle Doctrine state. In public, if there's no suggestion that the attack will be repeated or continued, shooting someone merely for "being there" after a previous attack, even if the victim is at a significant disadvantage after the attack would be a serious crime.
Do people die from them, yes absolutely. However until they do, there is nothing inherent in that action that rises to the level of deadly force by itself absent some additional factor(s) being articulated.
Especially in a situation with a significant disparity of force (large vs. small, young vs. old), if something can be shown to have the potential for causing death or serious injury, and if the defender can't reasonably stop the action from being carried through in any other way, I think there's a very good chance that using deadly force to stop the action would likely be considered justified.

You don't have to wait for someone to physically attack you and see how it turns out. You don't have to calculate the odds of being seriously injured or killed in your head before responding. If faced with someone significantly stronger/younger than you are who is obviously trying to attack you physically it is likely that you are certainly allowed to try to prevent it, and if you can't prevent it any other way, then deadly force is likely justified. That said, if you use a gun against an unarmed person, even when disparity of force exists, there's always a chance of having to defend yourself a second time, in court.
As a juror, I'm looking at a reasonably in shape 49 year old man who is knocked onto his side from a shove, not a tackle, or knocked down with a blow.
While that might present adequate justification for the use of deadly force to prevent it from happening, after it's happened it's pretty much moot except in the sense that it demonstrates the attacker's willingness to use force.
The assailant makes no additional attempts to attack the Drejka (doesn't take mount, attempt to kick him etc).
This is the kicker. There is nothing to suggest that McGlockton was going to press or repeat the attack--in fact he was obviously retreating.
I would have a hard time finding for the defendant with those being the circumstances I'm being given.
Agreed.
 
Okay good, so going back to my post, you are now providing additional facts and circumstances that might lead a reasonable person to believe a crime had occurred, was occuring, or might occur. My point in responding to your post, is you can't use the absolute of being shove to the ground as automatic deadly force. There needs to be a lot more articulation, and in this instance Drejka and his legal time did a horrible job it.

Not defending the shooter, as it is not would I have done. But I can see as a reasonable person how he might have felt threatened in this instance. It is impossible to predict what would have happened. Would the attack have continued if a gun was not pulled/fired? That will be the crux the jury has to decide.
 
I agree that there are some articulateable factors, but Drejka's never got on the stand to say them. As a juror, I'm looking at a reasonably in shape 49 year old man who is knocked onto his side from a shove, not a tackle, or knocked down with a blow. The assailant makes no additional attempts to attack the Drejka (doesn't take mount, attempt to kick him etc). I would have a hard time finding for the defendant with those being the circumstances I'm being given.

In Drejka's case, I agree. It was an overreaction. But in general, if you're knocked down and your assailant is still well within reach of you, should you wait for their cues to see what they're going to do next or do you assume they're going to stop or have already stopped at that point? That's why I asked (sorta rhetorically) when does a threat cease and how does someone know for certain.
 
You don't have to wait for someone to physically attack you and see how it turns out. You don't have to calculate the odds of being seriously injured or killed in your head before responding.

This is where I'm coming from. If you hesitate too much, you risk being put in a more jeopardizing position than you're already in. You're down on the ground, you get up to run and your attacker merely pushes you down again or by then, has pulled a knife or gun or whatever. Or, you're down on the ground and your attacker circles around to kick you in the head. You didn't draw your gun because "heck, it's just a shove and I fell down". I dunno... there's a lot of ways to read it and be wrong.

There is nothing to suggest that McGlockton was going to press or repeat the attack--in fact he was obviously retreating.

I disagree that it was absolutely obvious from the vantage point of Drejka. Also, he retreats once the gun is out, and *because* the gun is out. But that case has been decided by a jury so it's a moot point now. Wasn't there another shooting around this same time that got on the media's radar because of SYG, where a retired police officer shot a guy in a movie theater for throwing popcorn at him?

edit: Curtis Reeves. And fwiw, one of the cases mentioned in the link involves a guy being punched, falling and hitting his head and dying.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/court...and-your-ground-law-Chaos-followed-_165038900
 
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That's why I asked (sorta rhetorically) when does a threat cease and how does someone know for certain.
You make your best call but understand that your actions will be judged as to whether or not they were "reasonable" based on the circumstances of the situation as you understood them at the time.

In this case, I think it's clear that Drejka wasn't defending himself but was retaliating. A jury agreed that he wasn't acting in self-defense and that's why he was convicted.

The bottom line on questions like yours is that if you are in the middle of a sticky situation and you are wondering if you should shoot or not, DON'T SHOOT! If you need to shoot, you will KNOW it and you won't be going through mental gymnastics trying to figure out whether the attack is over or not. When you KNOW you need to shoot, then get busy saving your life and don't worry about what happens next.
I disagree that it was absolutely obvious from the vantage point of Drejka.
The jury disagreed. That may seem like a flippant response, but it's important to keep in mind that it's not what we think, it's what the jury thinks. Getting too wrapped up in how we think things should be is pointless--we won't get an official vote in whether or not our actions are legally justified.
Also, he retreats once the gun is out, and *because* the gun is out.
Doesn't matter. Once it's obvious he's retreating--and it is obvious, IMO, and apparently in the jury's opinion as well--then shooting isn't legal. The reason he's retreating doesn't matter unless a reasonable person would believe that the retreat wasn't genuine or that it was done merely to gain a tactical advantage to immediately resume the attack from a more advantageous position.
 
I completely and utterly disagree on this point. At that juncture absent some other factor(s) that has not be articulated the shove is a simple assault. Complaint of pain or injury below that of SBI or death. Much as every bar fight that occurs where someone does NOT die or sustain SBI, parties aren't charged with attempted murder, as the reasonable belief of parties is that a punch/shove/kick is not deadly force. Do people die from them, yes absolutely. However until they do, there is nothing inherent in that action that rises to the level of deadly force by itself absent some additional factor(s) being articulated.



I agree that there are some articulateable factors, but Drejka's never got on the stand to say them. As a juror, I'm looking at a reasonably in shape 49 year old man who is knocked onto his side from a shove, not a tackle, or knocked down with a blow. The assailant makes no additional attempts to attack the Drejka (doesn't take mount, attempt to kick him etc). I would have a hard time finding for the defendant with those being the circumstances I'm being given.

The jury determines along with the judge what is reasonable and that is beyond the scope of the information presented here because so many of the facts are absent. Shoving someone to the ground and being shot for it would seem, absent any other factors, to violate the proportionality requirement of self defense. But, that is still a different matter than shooting someone that is retreating. The first condition during an attack allows some degree of self defense and the question is how much force is reasonable to stop the assault. People can and do differ on this and caselaw nor statutory law provide a neat clean answer to a simple command such as you cannot shoot if the person is only committing simple assault. Just like the defendant could not have known the background of the victim, the defendant cannot always know the intentions of someone assaulting them.

Shooting someone who is retreating and no longer a threat is clearly unreasonable and that is why the guy was convicted--not because his use of force was disproportional. It would have been the same result had the defendant got up off the ground and then blindsided the guy with a tackle that caused a fatal brain injury if the victim landed the wrong way or had a heart attack. A reasonable person uses force to stop an attack, not to achieve revenge/street justice for losing a fight.

A principle of proportionality in self defense is that only the amount of force necessary to stop the attack or to prevent one in the first place is reasonable but this is not a hard and fast rule--if someone is attempting to knock someone out--it could require lethal force to repel because the assailant would have the other person's life in their hands. Juries have so decided in some cases.

One is not required to have and try every less than lethal weapon such as pepper spray, rubber bullets, and tasers before using a firearm. That is of itself unreasonable and the truth is that violence cannot really be calibrated during a fight which is why it is so wise to stay out of all of them. Violence between parties is more like a nuclear attack instead of mutually agreed trial by combat as there are no rules in the jungle.

The reality is that the jury will take into account the totality of the circumstances, the size, age, and physical fitness of the combatants for example or what, if anything was said in the exchange, etc. to indicate intention to commit further assault, etc. If the location was a bank and the person being shoved to the ground is a bank teller then a reasonable person might suspect that a robbery was taking place and so on. The location might be near a sharp dropoff and so on where the aggressor shoving someone might constitute a potentially lethal threat with that particular fact pattern. The facts of a particular case make all the difference in how the law is applied in a specific case.

The defense only needs one holdout that refuses to convict, especially if they do not present lesser charges as an option to the jury as a compromise verdict. That is what I meant by if the guy had shot to prevent the assault or during it, one or more jurors might have thought that reasonable depending on the facts in the case.
 
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