Form 4 “Submachine Gun” is the Sear Able to be Moved to a New Frame?

PrepVet · Sep 2, 2019

I have a Form 4 “submachine gun” in line 4b and it has “Uzi Model B” in 4d.

I had a barrel failure (split with rounds impacted behind the initial stuck round) and attempting to replace the barrel has been a failure. The prior owner did not take the greatest care of the weapon and removing the fake weld stuff under the barrel lug has been the biggest sticking point. Part of the barrel is still in the frame and parts are out from removing the split part. I simply cannot get the rest of the barrel out and fear I may have damaged the lug area beyond repair at this point.

I had taken it to a few gunsmiths but none were willing to work on it before I attempted to pull the barrel. Incidentally it has not moved but a few pieces have.

Am I able to move the sear legally to a new weapon or am I SOL? Whatever I do I clearly want to do it legally but if I am unable to move the sear to a new frame I fear I am screwed.

Thanks for the help or a place that I can take it to have someone attempt to save it.

newfalguy101 · Sep 2, 2019

Not a title 2 guy, but, will take a whack at it.

If the sear is registeted as the machine gun then I think yes, but, if the uzi is the registered machine gun, then I dont think so.

Contact New Fontier Armory out of North Las Vegas about fixing it, I understand they do pretty good work

PrepVet · Sep 2, 2019

newfalguy101 said:
Not a title 2 guy, but, will take a whack at it.

If the sear is registeted as the machine gun then I think yes, but, if the uzi is the registered machine gun, then I dont think so.

Contact New Fontier Armory out of North Las Vegas about fixing it, I understand they do pretty good work

Thanks for the lead. I’ll contact them but that is a hellva distance from me. Lol

JT-AR-MG42 · Sep 2, 2019

Really need pics to completely understand why you are not able to cut the bad barrel from the lug?
Do you mean the trunnion?

The stamped frame is the registered part on mine, not the welded in trunnion or the sear.
If your sear is the registered item (and you do not know?), then I would expect to see the sear having the serial number on it.
I have never heard of a registered trunnion, but who knows?

Proper positioning of the trunnion is critical for good function.
Does not read like the frame is totaled to me from your description (can't quite see it though).

It will be relatively expensive to have it rebuilt though.
Reads like you need to get in contact with Richard Hoffman.
His time is not cheap, the best usually isn't.

Good luck with your decisions,
JT

MachIVshooter · Sep 2, 2019

newfalguy101 said:
Not a title 2 guy, but, will take a whack at it.

If the sear is registeted as the machine gun then I think yes, but, if the uzi is the registered machine gun, then I dont think so.

This is correct.

The Uzi is all steel with a stamped receiver; it would basically have to be completely blown up, crushed or or melted to no be rapairable. New trunnions are available, though removing the damaged one and replacing it is no small task, requiring either cutting away the plug welds or boring it out on a lathe.

https://bwefirearms.com/product/uzi-smg-trunnion/

PrepVet · Sep 2, 2019

JT-AR-MG42 said:
Really need pics to completely understand why you are not able to cut the bad barrel from the lug?
Do you mean the trunnion?

The stamped frame is the registered part on mine, not the welded in trunnion or the sear.
If your sear is the registered item (and you do not know?), then I would expect to see the sear having the serial number on it.
I have never heard of a registered trunnion, but who knows?

Proper positioning of the trunnion is critical for good function.
Does not read like the frame is totaled to me from your description (can't quite see it though).

It will be relatively expensive to have it rebuilt though.
Reads like you need to get in contact with Richard Hoffman.
His time is not cheap, the best usually isn't.

Good luck with your decisions,
JT

I expected it to cost money to fix.

I will look him up, is he on here or have a company name to look up? How does one ship something like this for repair?

Thanks again

PrepVet · Sep 2, 2019

I found Richard Hoffman’s site, I do think he is the guy to help. Wow.

I emailed him. Thanks for the info.

PrepVet · Sep 5, 2019

This email just doesn’t seem correct.... I don’t need a Form 20 nor an FFL/SOT?

“If you want me to fix your gun pack it up in packaging you don’t want back and send it to us for repair. Include only the gun, no accessories or cases. Include a letter with ALL your contact information and a copy of your NFA paperwork. Ship it to the below address and address it to either BWE or Richard Hoffman, do not put firearms. You can ship it directly to us you do not need to ship it through a dealer. Ship it FedEx or UPS. Please email us when you ship your gun and let us know so we can be looking for it. When it is finished, I will contact you for payment. We accept Visa/MC, and USPS Money Orders. After we receive payment, we will ship your gun directly back to you. We are currently working at about an eight-month turnaround time.

Richard Hoffman”

Thanks

Gtscotty · Sep 5, 2019

Why? You should be able to ship firearms, even title 2 firearms to licensed manufacturers without going through an FFL.

When a rifle needs warranty work, I ship it directly to the manufacturer, when a supressor needs to be worked on its the same, I don't see why your situation would be different (but I'm not a lawyer or expert).

dogtown tom · Sep 5, 2019

PrepVet said:
This email just doesn’t seem correct.... I don’t need a Form 20 nor an FFL/SOT?

No such form as a "Form 20", if you mean Form 5320.20 then yes. (and yes I know that some believe it is called a Form 20....but ATF does not)
ATF suggest here https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-licensed-gunsmith-receive-nfa-firearm-purposes-repair https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-licensed-gunsmith-receive-nfa-firearm-purposes-repair that a Form 5 should be used both ways...…...that's stupid because its clearly not required by any ATF regulation and is clearly for the permanent transfer of lawful possession. ATF actually says so in this letter: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/repair-nfa-firearms/download
Of note in that FAQ:
1. Only a Form 5 is suggested.
2. Form 5320.20 is not mentioned.
3. Only licensed gunsmith is required, no SOT mentioned.

The Form 5320.20 is for temporary transport by the lawful possessor. If flying, taking a train or boat.....you are required to give a copy to that carrier.

Anyone engaged in the business of gunsmithing should have an 01 or 07FFL, an SOT is not required to gunsmith NFA firearms. BWE has both.
You do not need to hold an FFL/SOT to ship your own firearm.

“If you want me to fix your gun pack it up in packaging you don’t want back and send it to us for repair. Include only the gun, no accessories or cases. Include a letter with ALL your contact information and a copy of your NFA paperwork. Ship it to the below address and address it to either BWE or Richard Hoffman, do not put firearms. You can ship it directly to us you do not need to ship it through a dealer.

Sounds simple enough.

Ship it FedEx or UPS.

UPS does not accept machine guns for shipment. https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-cent...nts/firearms.page?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun

FedEx Express & Ground do not prohibit shipping machine guns: https://www.fedex.com/en-us/service-guide/terms/express-ground-samedaycity.html https://www.fedex.com/en-us/service-guide/terms/express-ground-samedaycity.html

MachIVshooter · Sep 5, 2019

dogtown tom said:
Anyone engaged in the business of gunsmithing should have an 01 or 07FFL, an SOT is not required to gunsmith NFA firearms.

It depends on whether the gunsmithing/repairs constitute manufacturing, which ATF redefined in 2015 to include things like barrel threading. If the service qualifies as manufacturing under 2015-1, which the OP's probably does given the level of service required, then it needs to go to an 07/02 or 10/02.

dogtown tom · Sep 6, 2019

MachIVshooter said:
It depends on whether the gunsmithing/repairs constitute manufacturing, which ATF redefined in 2015 to include things like barrel threading. If the service qualifies as manufacturing under 2015-1, which the OP's probably does given the level of service required, then it needs to go to an 07/02 or 10/02.

I understand that, merely addressing if an SOT was required.

jmorris · Sep 6, 2019

it would basically have to be completely blown up, crushed or or melted to no be rapairable.

This is correct, with an e

.

If the gunsmiths you contacted didn’t want to work on it, that beats further messing it up by a good margin.

That should have told you it might not be a easy simple job and to not make an attempt on your own. That said, if it’s metal and you haven’t destroyed it as outlined above, it can be fixed.

I have yet had anyone willing to transfer a “total loss” machinegun receiver to me in order to get some cash out of the loss.

Dan Forrester · Sep 8, 2019

Just google “demilled UZI receiver”. Here’s a link to some for sale:

https://www.apexgunparts.com/more/surplus/cut-receivers/imi-uzi-cut-receiver.html

As far as the ATF is concerned this is the level something must be destroyed to make it “non reparable”.

As long as its in better condition than the one in the link the ATF should have no problem with you taking whatever actions are necessary to repair it.

Dan

Form 4 “Submachine Gun” is the Sear Able to be Moved to a New Frame?

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