Scout rifle proliferation
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I enjoyed reading Cooper. Like Varminterror, I built a couple of pseudo-scouts years ago. What I realized is that (1) I prefer the term "General Purpose Rifle" or GPR to "scout rifle" because it is a broader category; a scout is one type of GPR; and (2) for a GPR I prefer a carbine-length bolt action with a low magnification variable in the conventional position. I no longer have anything that pretends to be a scout rifle (Cooper's definition) in the safe, but I do have a couple of handy GPRs.
Still kind of like Cooper's idea of "Thumper," although I have no need of that, either.
Still kind of like Cooper's idea of "Thumper," although I have no need of that, either.
dh1633pm
Contributing Member
I like Scout style rifles. Got the Ruger. Like it so much I got one for my son. I am not much for the scout style scope. So mine has a regular 3x9. Makes for a nice hunting rifle. Light with the Synthetic stock. Removable five round mag so easy unloading. Controlled feed. I bet the other brands have lots of the same attributes. I have a friend that works at the arms and he was telling me engineering made a Model 700 Scout prototype. Shot down by management.
Varminterror
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My “scout rifle” vision in 2019, if a bolt action rifle is dictated, is a 20” Proof carbon fiber barrel in front of a Defiance Deviant action in a Manners Gen 2 Compact stock, sporting an illuminated 4-16x44mm optic with milling reticle, fed by AIAW mags under the belly, and with a Thunder Beast Ultra 7 on the nose, chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. I’ve been snap shooting and engaging movers with higher magnification than 4-16x for many moons, so I’m not deterred by any legend of “up close” challenges, and I know what I can accomplish with a high sectional density bullet traveling at respectable velocities. Whether fighting or feeding, the rifle will suffice.
My personal “grab it when you need a rifle” rifle, which is certainly capable of hunting at responsibly metered ranges and also capable of fighting quite effectively, is a 10.5” 6.8spc SBR-15, also with a 4-16x44mm optic on top, and an Omega out front. It might get rebarreled into a 6.5 Grendel sooner than later, either will do.
My GSR, like all of my scouts have been, is just a fun rifle. It has no more inherent utility for a civilian than any of my other mid-caliber rifle in my safes, and less than many.
My personal “grab it when you need a rifle” rifle, which is certainly capable of hunting at responsibly metered ranges and also capable of fighting quite effectively, is a 10.5” 6.8spc SBR-15, also with a 4-16x44mm optic on top, and an Omega out front. It might get rebarreled into a 6.5 Grendel sooner than later, either will do.
My GSR, like all of my scouts have been, is just a fun rifle. It has no more inherent utility for a civilian than any of my other mid-caliber rifle in my safes, and less than many.
My favorite light rifle for hunting, though not classed as a "scout" rifle, is my Tikka bolt-action .243 Win. It, like all my hunting rifles, is topped with a 3-9x scope, like all my rifles, from .22 LR on up.
When I started hunting, not as many people liked scopes, but the scopes in the 1950's weren't as clear and variables were comparatively very expensive and not especially good.
A few years later, I became an engineering technician and, as such, found myself behind a very powerful engineering transit, doing leveling and running road survey lines through woods, looking for either survey rods or plumb-bob strings in very difficult wooded terrain. Transits used fixed-power, 25X or 30X scopes with three crosswires...the middle for leveling and top and bottom for Stadia.
After doing transit work for several years, seeing deer with a variable scope between 2X and 9X with a wide angled, very bright, and clear image. It was like a "walk in the park" to hunt with a scope and none of my hunting rifles have iron sights on them.
For those of you who find scopes challenging, I suggest that someone with extensive experience assist with picking the right scope, mounts, and installation. Over the years when working on rifles and sighting them in, I've found that many scopes out there are set up wrong, usually too far forward and often mounted too high for relatively quick pointing.
When I'm walking on a woods road, or in fairly open woods, I turn the power down to the lowest setting. When on a lightly-wooded stand area, I'll turn the power up to about 4x, so I can spot antlers. When in my blind, looking down a woods road, I turn it to 6X, so I can handle shots both fairly close and out to about 300 yards.
Everyone has their own scope tactics, but for those with less experience, think about what I wrote and maybe use LESS power than more than I do. Also take the bolt out of the rifle and practice snapping the empty rifle up to fixed objects to see how quickly you can bring the reticle to the object. Stock fit, especially the correct pull length also makes a big difference in how quickly an object can be targeted.
When I started hunting, not as many people liked scopes, but the scopes in the 1950's weren't as clear and variables were comparatively very expensive and not especially good.
A few years later, I became an engineering technician and, as such, found myself behind a very powerful engineering transit, doing leveling and running road survey lines through woods, looking for either survey rods or plumb-bob strings in very difficult wooded terrain. Transits used fixed-power, 25X or 30X scopes with three crosswires...the middle for leveling and top and bottom for Stadia.
After doing transit work for several years, seeing deer with a variable scope between 2X and 9X with a wide angled, very bright, and clear image. It was like a "walk in the park" to hunt with a scope and none of my hunting rifles have iron sights on them.
For those of you who find scopes challenging, I suggest that someone with extensive experience assist with picking the right scope, mounts, and installation. Over the years when working on rifles and sighting them in, I've found that many scopes out there are set up wrong, usually too far forward and often mounted too high for relatively quick pointing.
When I'm walking on a woods road, or in fairly open woods, I turn the power down to the lowest setting. When on a lightly-wooded stand area, I'll turn the power up to about 4x, so I can spot antlers. When in my blind, looking down a woods road, I turn it to 6X, so I can handle shots both fairly close and out to about 300 yards.
Everyone has their own scope tactics, but for those with less experience, think about what I wrote and maybe use LESS power than more than I do. Also take the bolt out of the rifle and practice snapping the empty rifle up to fixed objects to see how quickly you can bring the reticle to the object. Stock fit, especially the correct pull length also makes a big difference in how quickly an object can be targeted.
I've always like a scout rifle and have over the last several years switched to Leupold's firedot scout scope. This is a 1.5 - 5x lightweight variable scout scope that can also be used like a red dot thanks to it's brightly illuminated center dot.
I have always shot with both eyes open and immediately felt comfortable with the scout rifle when the first Steyr Scout was introduced 20 or so years ago. I have a couple of those and have set up all manner of scout rifles over the years.
I have mounted this scope on my AR's since I cannot afford a VCOG. Here's one on my DD. I also have a 6.5G Aero upper for this rifle with the same scope. The entire setup weighs in at 8lbs exactly unloaded.
I have always shot with both eyes open and immediately felt comfortable with the scout rifle when the first Steyr Scout was introduced 20 or so years ago. I have a couple of those and have set up all manner of scout rifles over the years.
I have mounted this scope on my AR's since I cannot afford a VCOG. Here's one on my DD. I also have a 6.5G Aero upper for this rifle with the same scope. The entire setup weighs in at 8lbs exactly unloaded.
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Alaskan Ironworker
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Off topic, but prepping is not paranoia if the threats you’re preparing for are real. Then its just called smart, not paranoia. Seen alot of idiots running around trying to find gasoline and bottled water when alaska got hit by that big earthquake last winter. I went home and watched netflix with my generator, scout rifle, and stockpiles. Luckily for the idiots power was only out for a day, the entire state is fed and fueled through a single port in anchorage. God forbid it goes out of commission.
Reliability - practically speaking, it is generally a myth that bolt actions are more reliable than semi autos. Having been a match director for both 3gun and PRS style matches, I’ve seen an awful lot of folks shoot on the clock and I saw way more issues with bolt guns than I ever saw with ARs.
Safety - I don’t know what would cause one to think ARs are less safe. There are an awful lot of rem700 out there with factory triggers that got recalled and are generally considered unsafe. Factory AR triggers are comparatively much safer until bubba decides to do a trigger job.
As a point of comparison, most matches allow competitors with ARs to run around with the safety “on”. But if that same competitor was using a bolt gun he would be required to open the bolt when moving because nobody trusts bolt gun safeties and triggers.
Alaskan Ironworker
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I only have mauser clones, cant speak for remington reliability.
Coal Dragger
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I like your light utility/precision rifle build out list a lot. Personally I’d probably spend the coin to top it with a Nightforce 2.5-20X50 NX8 because I like having more low end magnification, and in the case of the NX8 more top end too.
Old Stumpy
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"Cooper Personality Disorder" may afflict some members here as well, possibly.
Not at all an uncommon affliction, methinks.
It seems to me that describing those who like the Scout Rifle concept as "Jeff Cooper Cultists" seems very elitist and inaccurate. I have seen threads where members have fitted suppressors to old lever actions and have received much more acceptance and courtesy, although the concept seems odd.
Also, classifying any and all preppers as "tin foil hat wearers" seems very much generalizing and insulting.
Some preppers are quite practical and pragmatic about what they do. Others, not so much. And while Post Nuclear Holocaust and Global Societal Breakdown scenarios seem unlikely, the possibility of a disruption lasting for several months seems less so.
And certainly a .308 Scout Rifle would seem a more versatile and useful rifle than a .556 AR15 in a survival situation, where hunting would be an activity.
Not at all an uncommon affliction, methinks.
It seems to me that describing those who like the Scout Rifle concept as "Jeff Cooper Cultists" seems very elitist and inaccurate. I have seen threads where members have fitted suppressors to old lever actions and have received much more acceptance and courtesy, although the concept seems odd.
Also, classifying any and all preppers as "tin foil hat wearers" seems very much generalizing and insulting.
Some preppers are quite practical and pragmatic about what they do. Others, not so much. And while Post Nuclear Holocaust and Global Societal Breakdown scenarios seem unlikely, the possibility of a disruption lasting for several months seems less so.
And certainly a .308 Scout Rifle would seem a more versatile and useful rifle than a .556 AR15 in a survival situation, where hunting would be an activity.
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Old Stumpy
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Perhaps those who hate the .308 bolt action Scout Rifle concept and champion the AR15 in its place are members of an AR15 cult following?
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Thanks for your post, I grew up using iron sights and still prefer them at the ranges in which I shoot and because a lot of them are old military rifles that I will not d&t for a scope. Thus, when using a modern scoped rifle, I do use the low power scopes because I tend to get lost in the scope as you describe using higher powers on a variable power scope. I also tend to not use a bench when I shoot other than to zero a rifle and practice the old military stances that I was taught (except the paddy squat as I can't do that anymore without getting stuck from old joints).
Anyone using old military issue bolt actions and what were their problems if you do not mind elaborating? I've kinda toyed with the idea.
I will say that many of those old military bolt actions have safeties that physically block the firing pin which the AR does not.
Varminterror
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Short stroke a bolt gun, you’ll choke it. Every time you run the bolt is a manual, human action. And under stress, sometimes that control mechanism, the human element, isn’t flawless.
An AR, in general, is either going to run reliably, or it’s going to choke, reliably. A bolt gun has the risk of user error every single time it’s cycled.
At least that has been my experience in running AR’s and stick shifts in competition on the clock.
Lame duck on the firing pin block vs. AR safety. Locking the striker in a bolt gun is no more secure than locking the trigger such it locks the hammer of an AR. Both are rendered inert. Different mechanisms, different solutions.
Varminterror
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Changing the cartridge to suit your angle doesn’t slip past unnoticed.
Without question, an equal barrel length LFAR can be as light as most of these Scout rifles, even lighter and shorter given some very common parts options, equally as powerful when chambered in the same cartridge, more readily repaired in the field, and a far better choice as a “might have to hunt, might have to fight” rifle.
But frankly, I’ve killed enough game in the last 20yrs with a 5.56/223, and subsequently with 6.8 spc and 6.5 Grendel, indeed, I’d grab a so chambered AR-15 over any .308win bolt gun in a “might have to hunt, might have to fight” scenario.
not many. They’re just not competitive. That’s prob a topic for a different thread.
But coopers thoughts on scout rifles seem specifically to address what I imagine he perceived as shortcomings in the practical use of old military bolt guns. (Assuming were talking mausers springfields and the like)
They’re overpowered and difficult to load difficult to scope and just not handy. The stock is typically banded to the barrel which limits not just the accuracy but the ability to make it shorter or longer or thicker or thinner.
I will say I prefer a firing pin block in theory. I just don’t know of one in practice that makes it worth it.
Video games and movies....
I've tried the scout scope on a lever gun to do load work ups and was impressed by the speed of getting on target. They suck at dusk and dawn.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
A couple of months back I was very interested in a “Scout” type rifle. After handling a few and discovering that the scope forward mount looks like a good idea but does throw the balance off I decided to open my safe and take another good look at my Winchester 94AE Carbine and my Marlin 336. Both are 30-30s.
My Winchester has XS Sights ghost ring with the white stripe front sight. All the metal has been Cerakoted (story in itself on that - never trust your buddy’s coolers to be leakproof) I have a nice leather sling and a lace on butt pad. It’s a nice shooter.
I considered doing something similar with my Marlin 336 but I am toying with mounting a red dot sight on that one. That still remains to be seen.
But, I think I have 2 rifles now that meet the “Scout rifle” guidelines close enough for me...for now.
My Winchester has XS Sights ghost ring with the white stripe front sight. All the metal has been Cerakoted (story in itself on that - never trust your buddy’s coolers to be leakproof) I have a nice leather sling and a lace on butt pad. It’s a nice shooter.
I considered doing something similar with my Marlin 336 but I am toying with mounting a red dot sight on that one. That still remains to be seen.
But, I think I have 2 rifles now that meet the “Scout rifle” guidelines close enough for me...for now.
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fireside44
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That's why cooper's "scout" rifle is kind of silly with it's cut and dried formula. Scouting is kind of terrain dependent and the rifle needs to serve the users needs first, not rigidly adhere to a formula . I wouldn't want a short barreled .308 and a red dot for scouting in the big bend! I Or an AR-15 carbine for that matter. I wouldn't want a 24" barrel bolt gun and high power scope in the thicket out back my house. I noticed many guys have their own take on a scout rifle, because you run what suits you best and that always makes the most sense.
I started hunting in the early 90's. I never saw someone using irons. Everyone had a scope so I assume irons were not well liked or as good. Since most of where I shoot is sub 100 yards, and often taking game at less than 30 yards I was quite happy when I tried my first cheap red dot. I bought a good one for my go-to, an Aimpoint. Was worth the pain of paying for it. AK irons are an abomination at first glance but strangely once you get used to them they are quite effective and more accurate than they ever would get credit for in print. I have a lower 1/3 co-witness through the aimpoint and really enjoy that setup and learned to appreciate the crappy AK irons more than I expected.
I don't think it's certain. A 12 gauge could hunt more game with bird shot and slugs than either of those and still put up a fight at the homestead, albeit with a little less capacity. Maybe we need a Saiga scout shotgun and a drum as our solution.
I notice that many ARs shown here as "hunting" rifles have full-sized magazines in the photos. In Maine, semi-auto rifles are limited to 5 rounds. Is that the case in your state, or are many full-sized magazines "permanently reduced" to lesser capacity, according to state laws?
ECVMatt
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I think the main theme of this thread fits with my sentiments in general that are as follows: Proficient rifle users are very particular about what rifle they use because they care about being accurate and how the rifle fits and feels is a big part of that. I love rifles in general for the way they are able to solve problems at different distances and in different circumstances. I find it very interesting how rifles are adapted to environment and what the owners are able to do with them.
I like "Handy" rifles. What makes them handy for me is being relatively compact and easy to carry in respect to the environment I anticipate using it. The rifle I use for hunting in the mountains is much larger and heavier than the one that I use for hunting in Texas brush. But this brings us back to the one rifle for all theme. If I had to go through my safe and just pick one to use for the rest of my life, I would be looking at my Model Seven is .243. It had a 2.5x8 scope is light and "Handy", is accurate at reasonable distance, maneuvers well in a truck, and has been very reliable. I also have an old boat paddle SS Ruger MKII in the same caliber that would be in strong competition.
I agree that trying to stick to Cooper's definition seems a bit silly. I like the term GPR like others here, because it allow the end user to create what works best for him or her in their own unique situation.
As stated above, I love rifles. I think innovation is great and often gives us the opportunity to rethink both the positive and negative attribute of our GPR's or Scout rifles.
I like "Handy" rifles. What makes them handy for me is being relatively compact and easy to carry in respect to the environment I anticipate using it. The rifle I use for hunting in the mountains is much larger and heavier than the one that I use for hunting in Texas brush. But this brings us back to the one rifle for all theme. If I had to go through my safe and just pick one to use for the rest of my life, I would be looking at my Model Seven is .243. It had a 2.5x8 scope is light and "Handy", is accurate at reasonable distance, maneuvers well in a truck, and has been very reliable. I also have an old boat paddle SS Ruger MKII in the same caliber that would be in strong competition.
I agree that trying to stick to Cooper's definition seems a bit silly. I like the term GPR like others here, because it allow the end user to create what works best for him or her in their own unique situation.
As stated above, I love rifles. I think innovation is great and often gives us the opportunity to rethink both the positive and negative attribute of our GPR's or Scout rifles.
There are no magazine restrictions in my state
Jason_W
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I bought the Savage Scout. Not because I’m a member of the cult of cooper, but because I liked the idea of a compact rifle that came with peep sights.
It turned out to be a poor choice for me. Not because there’s anything inherently wrong with the rifle, I just don’t have a practical use for it in my current situation.
I’m currently urban and all of my shooting is poking holes in paper. .308 win is kind of an expensive way to do that and while the recoil and muzzle blast aren’t extreme in the grander scheme of things, they do make shooting a little less fun after a while.
If I was still back in northern New England hunting deer every year, it would have been great in that it’s shortness would make it good for the thick brush while still shooting flat enough to handle the clearcuts.
I think I bought it while clinging to the rules of my old life and not the realities of my current life.
At some point I’m going to liquidate it for something cheaper and more fun to shoot.
It turned out to be a poor choice for me. Not because there’s anything inherently wrong with the rifle, I just don’t have a practical use for it in my current situation.
I’m currently urban and all of my shooting is poking holes in paper. .308 win is kind of an expensive way to do that and while the recoil and muzzle blast aren’t extreme in the grander scheme of things, they do make shooting a little less fun after a while.
If I was still back in northern New England hunting deer every year, it would have been great in that it’s shortness would make it good for the thick brush while still shooting flat enough to handle the clearcuts.
I think I bought it while clinging to the rules of my old life and not the realities of my current life.
At some point I’m going to liquidate it for something cheaper and more fun to shoot.
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