Handgun ammo, underwood Vs buffalo bore vs handloads

I think they are pretty much both really consistant with what they advertise.
And No, you cannot match their performance with your handloads, they blend different powders to get their results. I wouldn't advise doing that without a ballistics laboratory with pressure indicating equipment.
You will always fall short on the velocity because of the powders we have available to us. Their powder blends are deep dark trade secrets.

No function problems when firing revolvers with any ammo.

My handloads are more accurate than any factory ammo because I can tailor them for my guns.

My ammo meant for semi-autos is also very reliable because I make it that way.

I have never seen a youtube video where the shooter had a failure-to-fire with either underwood or buffalo bore. the only "bad mouthing" going on is complaints of the ammo being too powerful. I have never shot either one, thus my comments regarding youtube videos. I do know that if my reloads get close to buffalo bore velocities (in comparable guns), i'm real close, or over, max pressures.

neither of these companies have to follow saami specifications, so they determine how fast the ammo flies. handloaders, on the other hand, have to follow saami, so handloaded velocities are going to be a bit less than underwood or buffalo bore.

murf

murf said:

I have never seen a youtube video where the shooter had a failure-to-fire with either underwood or buffalo bore. the only "bad mouthing" going on is complaints of the ammo being too powerful. I have never shot either one, thus my comments regarding youtube videos. I do know that if my reloads get close to buffalo bore velocities (in comparable guns), i'm real close, or over, max pressures.

neither of these companies have to follow saami specifications, so they determine how fast the ammo flies. handloaders, on the other hand, have to follow saami, so handloaded velocities are going to be a bit less than underwood or buffalo bore.

murf

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They do have to follow Saami, or they would be subject to lawsuits. Kind of like reload manuals have to make sure there is no way you can go over pressure following their data.
This is why they blend powder and do other voodoo that we hand loaders can't safely do.
Hand loaders on the other hand can do whatever they want. No matter how ill advised and dangerous it is.

You may come close if you can find a recipe, but a recent loading experience with 38 Super has demonstrated to me that guns really are individuals. I'm coming in about a 100 fps below the published data. Even though they had a gun with a half inch longer barrel, it seems like the data is a little optimistic. Like they got one high reading and published that. also, as already mentioned, they use powder blends, and we don't, cuz scary, and dangerous.

I've found that velocity consistency is better for my handloads.

I find Underwood to have much more reasonable pricing than BB, and their published velocities seem accurate. For defense ammo, if I can't get it in the Federal HST variety, and I really want some cookers, I buy Underwood. I just haven't started loading my own defense rounds yet.

Though, I have my eye on a very expensive copper monolithic bullet for use in 10mm auto.

Bfh_auto said:

They do have to follow Saami, or they would be subject to lawsuits. Kind of like reload manuals have to make sure there is no way you can go over pressure following their data.
This is why they blend powder and do other voodoo that we hand loaders can't safely do.
Hand loaders on the other hand can do whatever they want. No matter how ill advised and dangerous it is.

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Lawsuits??? What laws are we talking about here and does SAAMI actually ever enforce anything?

Bfh_auto said:

They do have to follow Saami, or they would be subject to lawsuits.

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Not in the least. SAAMI compliance is voluntary. There’s no requirement for ammo manufacturers to follow SAAMI standards unless they want the compliance seal on the box. Buyer beware - you’re not correct in assuming a box on a shelf is compliant unless it is labeled as such.

It’s not so uncommon to find factory ammo from these boutique makers labeled with specific firearms models which can tolerate their loads, attempting to absolve liability if they were used in any other firearm not listed as approved.

reddog81 said:

Lawsuits??? What laws are we talking about here and does SAAMI actually ever enforce anything?

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SAAMI is not an enforcement agency. Compliance by ammunition and firearms manufacturers is completely voluntary.

Bfh_auto said:

They do have to follow Saami, or they would be subject to lawsuits. Kind of like reload manuals have to make sure there is no way you can go over pressure following their data.
This is why they blend powder and do other voodoo that we hand loaders can't safely do.
Hand loaders on the other hand can do whatever they want. No matter how ill advised and dangerous it is.

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i'll have to disagree with you here. for example, both reloading manuals and buffalo bore/underwood list/offer "ruger only" loads for the 45 long colt cartridge. "ruger only" loads are well above saami pressure limits for that cartridge. so, saami is an industry standard not a rule and companies (and the military (9mm ammo is way above saami pressures)) do go beyond the standard.

murf

p.s. just read varminterror's posts. he has a more eloquent way of saying what i'm gettin at.

I just ran through Underwood’s offerings. My handloads meet and actually usually beat their published data for 44mag, 45colt, and 454 casull. Especially running the 300grn XTP in the second cannelure in 44mag to fit the Ruger SBH cylinder, which is a no-brainer. Healthy amounts of H110, anything slower won’t fit in the case to get the same speed, anything faster will grenade before it gets there too. No magic, just well documented reloading data.

I never seem to have any of the misfire issues with reloads or boutique ammo which appear to be so proliferant online. Cheap gun show reman ammo, eh, sure, but Garret, Buffalo Bore, Underwood, and anything made at my bench certainly are not in that class.

I have not tried Buffalo ammo. I am told it runs neck and neck with Underwood.
I have shot a fair amount of Underwood. It has always been impressive.
I have never tried to push my reloads to the max. Underwood loads for when I want HOT ammo.

FWIW; I can match any safe factory ammo with my handloads. I can be as consistent, or more so, with my hand loads, as a factory automatic machine. Yes the factory often blends and/or uses a proprietary powder, but performance can be duplicated with canister powders. One of the reasons I reload.

I gotta say I have not purchased any Buffalo Bore or Underwood ammo, or any factory ammo to speak of in mebbe 10 years with the exception of one box when I bought a 45 Colt, and had no brass at the time...

Maybe someone can prove it's impossible to duplicate any factory load, mild to wild, but I cannot think of any reason...

Deleted. Dead horse post....

Varminterror said:

Not in the least. SAAMI compliance is voluntary. There’s no requirement for ammo manufacturers to follow SAAMI standards unless they want the compliance seal on the box. Buyer beware - you’re not correct in assuming a box on a shelf is compliant unless it is labeled as such.

It’s not so uncommon to find factory ammo from these boutique makers labeled with specific firearms models which can tolerate their loads, attempting to absolve liability if they were used in any other firearm not listed as approved.

View attachment 859891

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I was mistaken.

murf said:

i'll have to disagree with you here. for example, both reloading manuals and buffalo bore/underwood list/offer "ruger only" loads for the 45 long colt cartridge. "ruger only" loads are well above saami pressure limits for that cartridge. so, saami is an industry standard not a rule and companies (and the military (9mm ammo is way above saami pressures)) do go beyond the standard.

murf

p.s. just read varminterror's posts. he has a more eloquent way of saying what i'm gettin at.

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I hadn't thought about the Ruger only data. I read Varminterror's post.

murf said:

I have never seen a youtube video where the shooter had a failure-to-fire with either underwood or buffalo bore. the only "bad mouthing" going on is complaints of the ammo being too powerful.

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I can attest to that. I bought some BB .45-70 +P 350gr. Whilst cowboy loads of 405gr and Hornady FTX 325gr ammo hit pretty close to each other at 25yds (indoor range max), the BB had a POI about 6 inches higher..... at 25 yards. And boy did they rock me back too! Powerful stuff!

I won a .45 auto in 2016, a Glock 30. Never had a .45 so I kept it and ordered some Underwood +P and some .45 Super (shot with a heavier recoil spring). I bought some Hornady FTX locally to try with the Underwood. Shot 100 rounds of each without a failure. Believe me, you have to put yoiur game face on to shoot 100 rounds of .45 Super but it's still fun.

Did some very un-scientific tests with 12" of wet phone books fronted by a couple of layers of denim at 45'.



The .45 Super looked pretty rough but actually went all the way thru the wet phone books. I don't have the experience and don't shoot enough .45 to reload it to Super levels, for now. I would certainly trust the Underwood to function.

Dave

in the glock 30, or 21, and with the heavy (at least 21 lb.) spring

murf

p.s. and if you are going to shoot more than 20 rounds, get an after-market barrel with a fully supported chamber. and if you are going to reload, use 45 super brass. and make sure it is starline brass. and don't forget to have fun!

I use a 23 lb non-captured Wolff spring set. Did not have any bulging at all with the G30 factory barrel, but I agree, a steady diet of .45 Super would need an after market barrel.

For me, shooting the .45 Super was more of a fun thing to try, not something I'm into. I'd read an article on another forum discussing the versatility of the G30 and all the calibers that would work with it. It was fun, but after another range member shot two rounds, no one else wanted to try it! Frankly, I'd rather shoot the .45 Super thru the G30 than shoot full power .357 rounds thru a revolver.

Dave

You can load close to their levels. I am a commercial ammunition manufacturer. I do mostly local and custom ammo for now. When I do decide to run my automated 1050s I sell on gunbroker. Its a side job.

Anyways back to the OP. You can load to buffalo bore or underwood. For consideration 90% of the reloading info you read is under what it shows. A post above was kind of right. They do strings of tests with pressure readings and take the fastest velocity they get for advertisements.

They also keep real pressures to themselves and add a safety margin of 10% roughly. I have had several loads sent off and tested and not once did book loads match their pressure readings. They are always lower than shown in a book. Mostly to cover for lot variation from powder would be my guess.

I can get special blend powders if I order 500+ lbs of one type. So only the big companies get it.

op, you listed the exact reasons, among many, why people load their own - improved everything. And quite satisfying.

Are you on the fence? If so, a push to get the essentials and answer these questions for yourself. Suggest starting with something that'll give you growing room and hold long-term interest. 9/40/45 have relatively narrow power ranges and sorta pedestrian if wanting spice. 10mm Auto's an excellent starter - great savings vs. anything UPS delivers and a cartridge that runs mild to wild, which is mid-range 40SW to low-end 41 Mag. For the house, street, woods and venison. A modest Glock 20 will serve very well and easy to modify if desired. (Can also load 40 SW w/ same dies.)

Leaning toward a revolver? 38/357 for intro cartridges (same die set) and a Ruger you can pass to grandchildren.

I shoot a fair amount of Underwood ammo for practice. Price wise, I much prefer it over Buffalo Bore depending on what I'm shooting.

As far as longevity, I can't afford a range toy diet of it, but I practice quite a bit.

My XD45 shoots .45 acp, .45 acp +p, and .45 super all without having to change the springs.

Not saying that my pistol will last forever with Underwood or Buffalo Bore or Double Tap or Grizzly, but it can be done for at least a couple hundred rounds.

I carry it in Alaska, by the way. In case of ground squirrel attacks.