Homeowner uses Assault Rifle in shootout with 3 teen suspects who had a pistol killing them all

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Deanimator said:
If they'd murdered him and his family, I HIGHLY doubt that they'd have missed a second's sleep over it.

Nobody should feel "remorse" for not allowing himself (nevermind his family) to be slaughtered.
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Remorse, no. Self-examination, yes (e.g. "Is there anything I missed, any way I could have been better prepared, anything I could have done better?"). No decent person is unaffected by the taking of another's life.

I agree that those who don't live by these standards would not respond in the same way. I wasn't referring to them...
 
Did you notice how the homeowners' hand-modified "No Trespassing--Violators Will Be Shot" signs played prominently in the TV reporting?

These signs didn't appear to have any deterrent effect on the three teenage invaders.

But they do say something about the thinking of the homeowners. Announcing that you shoot trespassers (an act NOT legally justified anywhere in the US that I'm aware of) might seem cute to some, but doesn't really fit the persona of "righteous defender" that the homeowner now desperately wants to portray.
 
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luzyfuerza said:
Remorse, no. Self-examination, yes (e.g. "Is there anything I missed, any way I could have been better prepared, anything I could have done better?"). No decent person is unaffected by the taking of another's life.

I agree that those who don't live by these standards would not respond in the same way. I wasn't referring to them...
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Nobody should second guess themselves because a predator died instead of them. The anti-gun narrative is that you have no more right to live than the sociopath trying to exterminate you and that your only "defense" should be the fairytale of police "protection" or begging abjectly for your life. I'm not having any of it.
 
Sadly, violent people intent on doing harm to others and robbing them of their property has persisted through human history.

And why founders of this nation recognized the need for the Second Amendment so we could protect ourselves from enemies of our liberty.

Not much has changed in human behavior since the founding days ... We still need to arm ourselves to protect us from violent people intent on doing harm to us and steal our property as police response is too slow when your door is being kicked in.

And now "some" law makers openly and clearly say they want to take our guns away.

Why is that?

Perhaps because they are not on our side. Perhaps they don't support our liberty. Perhaps they don't recognize our need to defend ourselves. ;)

Maybe we shouldn't elect them as our law makers. :thumbdown:

As to the home owner approached by 3 mask wearing intruders who shot at him, God only knows what went through his mind. I know what would go through my mind if I saw 3 intruders wearing masks and shooting at me/my family at any time of the day or night ... They intent on harming me and my family. To me, it does not matter who is wearing those masks if they are shooting at me.
 
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Robert said:
I am reopening this as an example of and discussion about self defense. Anything even remotely off topic for THR will be removed. If it turns out that I have to prune out a lot of off topic posts then I'll just close it again. This is the one and only warning. Don't be the one that ruins it for everyone.
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Aim1 said:
This is why so-called assault rifles like AR15's are indispensable in situations like this where you have multiple suspects versus 1 victim.
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Agreed. In another thread we had a couple guys acting as though these types of situations never happen:

"I mean, unless you envision rapidly peppering the landscape with one 30 round magazine after another to turn back the ravenous hordes intent on overwhelming your home or homestead. That was the 1980s popular survivalist myth, but it seemed contrived to justify the hobbyist desire to stockpile tons of .556 ammo and an AR15 for everyone in the family."

Deanimator said:
Nobody should second guess themselves because a predator died instead of them.
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Well said. Allowing sympathy to enter your mind or heart for a dead or wounded aggressor on account of a successful and justified case of self defense is bad for your mental health.
 
fireside44 said:
Well said. Allowing sympathy to enter your mind or heart for a dead or wounded aggressor on account of a successful and justified case of self defense is bad for your mental health.
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It's reasonable to regret HAVING to shoot someone to save your life and limb or that of an innocent third party. Once that action has been forced upon you, it's foolish to regret doing so.
 
Doing an interweb search 24 hours after the incident -- all of the articles carry the same incomplete information and even the same choice of verbiage. The police appear to be holding info on the case tightly until they sort it out. Some anomalies I see right away in the incomplete storyline are: 1. one suspect took out a handgun and shot it, but three of the youths got shot; 2. the SYG angle was introduced into the discussion by someone but doesn't necessarily fit the idea of defending your home against armed intruders; and 3. there is more to this story than meets the eye right now.

Worth following this as it unfolds. This reminds me of the story of the Houston police and the drug raid last January that started out with one familiar narrative but ended up being something altogether different and more complex (not that this is the same specific narrative). The press is so important to a free society, to get the facts and share them, although it irks me that they often bring a particular bias to reporting on anything to do with guns which can occlude or bias the reporting. This story is too incomplete to come to any judgments on the use of force yet (I mean generic common sense judgments; legal judgments will obviously have to come later in the legal system).
 
I for one have zero sympathy for the teens who perpetrated or were attempting to perpetrate a crime . I will not regret what I am forced to do to survive by individuates that want to do me harm. I will however contemplate how these teens got to this point in their lives that made them take up guns and come after me. I suspect their parents were mostly absent from their lives and these teens were allowed to be raised on the street.
 
The NY Times put their own special spin on it, writing although the teenagers fired shots, no one was hit. Sort of like it didn't happen or was OK, but the nasty homeowner escalated it by defending himself, killing the poor children. When someone is firing a gun at you, does their age really matter? They called the people being shot at "would be victims", I'd say if you're being fired at, it's not would be, you are a victim.

From the article:
"No one was hit when one of three masked teenagers trying to rob three people outside a home in Conyers, Ga., fired a handgun at the would-be victims around 4 a.m. Monday, the authorities said. But the tables quickly turned, they said, when one of the people in the front yard returned fire — killing all three teenagers."
 
IMHO, this comes down to whether or not all three individuals were killed because there was a true and legitimate threat to the shooter and the others around him. With the possibility of only two of the three with guns, was the third a threat. Did the teens actually return fire or still proceed in a threatening manner after the homeowner opened fire or did they attempt to flee and were shot only because the shooter had the opportunity. One of the victims was found a distance away on a neighbors lawn. Did he make it that far wounded or was he shot there. Those are the types of questions and answers we need to know before we pass judgement. Type of guns used on either side is moot.
 
For an example of how other people's words are attributed to authorities, watch the first video embedded above. The officer was asked by a reporter if it wasn't, or told that it was potentially a SYG case. He then responded that that was a possibility and subsequent accounts attribute that observation to LE.
 
buck460XVR said:
Did the teens actually return fire
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Multiple interviews different news agencies conducted show people reporting they initially heard handgun/smaller caliber gun shot(s) followed by louder/rifle caliber shots. This correlates with the report the victim and family made that 3 masked intruders shot first and the victim returned fire.
 
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I still remember the day that my son called me from Afghanistan. He was a data Marine with a M240 humping it in nowhere land. He called me on the sat phone after a prolonged firefight. He said "Dad, if I kill someone, am I going to hell". Not a good question to ask a dad. I read about these things and there is a toll to be paid by both sides. Those that were killed have families, brothers, sisters, mothers and dads plus others. The person who did the shooting had to bear a big burden, emotionally plus the toll from society. The questions about their actions.

It will be a while before we might know the full story of this event. Right now we are merely speculating based on bits and pieces of what is been reported by others. Some of it true and some of it not.
 
dh1633pm said:
He said "Dad, if I kill someone, am I going to hell".
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I thought "Thou shalt not kill/murder" applied to intentionally killing a fellow Hebrew/believer and did not apply to killing in war or in self defense.

When I joined the Army as a medic, I initially made peace with God that I would not initiate the shooting but when shot at, would return fire in self defense/defense of others and if there was subsequent killing, would consider self defense killing. But once you are at war, since your enemy/opposing force is trying to kill you, you are essentially in constant state of "self defense/defense of others".
 
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Scooter22 said:
I really can't stand when the media puts up a "teen" or similar description looking for sympathy for the perpetrators. Sorry. You got a gun and are shooting at me or my family I'm not looking at age.
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As a retired LEO, its DISGUSTING to see any reference to 'age'.

If your being attacked,the "age" of the attacker matters so little as to be not a consideration to the VICTIM.

So the "teenager" aspect is too annoying to measure.
 
I live less than an hour from the incident and am looking for ways to increase security around my home, maybe increase size of hiding spot for shotguns to be able to fit an AR in there also.... carry a full size semi auto pistol instead of shield45 or revolver.... increase cameras to maximum.... install more motion activated lights (deer set off my others).... motion activated warnings, something like my driveway alert... I'm sure there are more things that will come up.
I wonder what percentage of Americans could protect their families in that situation
 
GAF said:
I for one have zero sympathy for the teens who perpetrated or were attempting to perpetrate a crime . I will not regret what I am forced to do to survive by individuates that want to do me harm.
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I'm still in decent working condition as an early middle aged man but I see many 14-18 year old young guys on the streets at work downtown I wouldn't want to have to deal with in a confrontation. That age range of young men function as front line soldiers in war time in many places and not much older in our own country's armed forces.

rdnktrkr said:
I live less than an hour from the incident and am looking for ways to increase security around my home, maybe increase size of hiding spot for shotguns to be able to fit an AR in there also.... carry a full size semi auto pistol instead of shield45 or revolver.... increase cameras to maximum.... install more motion activated lights (deer set off my others).... motion activated warnings, something like my driveway alert... I'm sure there are more things that will come up.
I wonder what percentage of Americans could protect their families in that situation
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The ones with dogs and a semi auto rifle within quick reach could probably do it best. A good dog can rival many weapons as a deterrent to evildoers. Good fences make good neighbors, as the old saying goes. A gate for the ranch kept closed and locked at all times. Cameras after that. If I'm in the house or just outside, pistol. In the back? Rifle. I got all that stuff, rifle, dogs, gate, or it's a work in progress, fencing, but get complacent and leave my gate open during the day. Always being armed at my place gets to be to big a pain in the neck sometimes as I'm always doing projects or chainsawing out here. One more thing to carry around or keep track of while I'm trying to have some chainsaw fun.
 
It's pretty hilariousto read the comments section on this Reddit post. https://www.reddit.com/r/WinStupidP...masked_teens_shot_dead_after_trying_to_rob_a/ Basically, despite Reddit's overall leftward/antigun bent, there's a lot of recognition that, yeah, shooting people who are shooting at you is OK, and that CNN's headline and overall attempt to make this an incident that "raises questions" about gun ownership or SYG laws is incredibly stupid and transparent. Enjoy.
 
The totality of the circumstances will need to be considered here and the apparent legal risk to the homeowner is that he continued firing after the threat to him and others was over.

Thus, the time of night, darkness, distance, masks, the teens apparently firing first, ability to retreat for the crime victims, whether or not the victim's long arm was immediately accessible or not, distance, the position of the deceased when shot, eyewitness accounts of a chaotic scene, uttered threats or pleas to surrender by the deceased, threatening motions by the defendants, prior involvement if any of the deceased with the homeowner, etc. Too many variables up in the air right now for a discussion of the case particulars.

That being said, the age of the individuals makes no legal difference being as they apparently fired a lethal weapon, nor does the fact that they missed matter. One cannot retreat faster than a bullet in any case. SYG would seem not to apply here as there would be no way to retreat in perfect safety as far as the case has been reported here. My guess is that the relatives of the deceased will try to use political pressure to get the prosecutors to go after the homeowner and you might see some familiar faces rushing to the locale to make this about policies such as SYG, racial tensions, the 2020 GA election, or to make some money.

The media has already started on the SYG policy, whether or not it applies. In a week, expect as the facts trickle out, either expect a damp squib if the deceased are unsympathetic criminals with a long record of doing illegal stuff and the defendant is righteous and/or behaving as a watchdog to protect loved ones. It would help dampen the media circus if both the deceased and the homeowner were of the same race. Or, if the homeowner has a troubled past, appeared reckless in his dealings with others, ignored attempts for the defendants to retreat, and so on, then expect fireworks. An Oklahoma druggist is serving time because he would not stop shooting after the threat ended from an armed robbery. We shall see.
 
Deanimator said:
When I worked for a crooked IT company at the Cleveland Clinic, I regularly got home after 03:00, after several hours of coerced unwaged overtime. I have ONLY ever worked the graveyard shift on my current job.

Of course you overlook the possibilities that:
  1. They got the address wrong. Cops can go to the wrong house but armed robbers CAN'T?
  2. They mistook them for drug dealers.
  3. The victims had nice stuff and they wanted to rob them. Was the doctor in Connecticut a "drug dealer"?

If you get to work banker's hours, good for you. Many of us don't have that luxury and we aren't drug dealers.
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I leave my home at 3:30 am to go to work. So being outside at that time is not an issue.

Perhaps I need to be more prepared at that time
 
boom boom said:
Thus, the time of night, darkness, distance, masks, the teens apparently firing first, ability to retreat for the crime victims, whether or not the victim's long arm was immediately accessible or not, distance, the position of the deceased when shot, eyewitness accounts of a chaotic scene, uttered threats or pleas to surrender by the deceased, threatening motions by the defendants, prior involvement if any of the deceased with the homeowner, etc. Too many variables up in the air right now for a discussion of the case particulars.
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Good post, as usual. I am interested to see whether there will be confusion around whether an aggressor with a gun who is running away while still holding the gun is seen as still a threat. Certainly a gunfight participant who is running back to cover with the intention of then resuming fire is very much a threat... their temporary turn away may be part of becoming more dangerous to their victim.
 
boom boom said:
apparent legal risk to the homeowner is that he continued firing after the threat to him and others was over.
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ATLDave said:
Certainly a gunfight participant who is running back to cover with the intention of then resuming fire is very much a threat... their temporary turn away may be part of becoming more dangerous to their victim.
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Police found all three masked intruders on the driveway. One died at the scene and two later died at the hospital. If gunfight took place in the driveway and the threat was still in the driveway, I would consider threat still active. If I was the homeowner and one of three masked intruders pulled out a gun, I would naturally assume the others were armed too and once shooting started, any dispersal movement by the intruders (especially towards other family members present) would be taken as flanking movement to increase intruders' vantage and/or attempt to harm/take a family member hostage, and would still pose an immediate threat, especially since other family members present faced the same immediate threat.

This is what we have so far and the homeowner has not been charged as of yesterday - https://fox17.com/news/local/police...kills-3-teenage-boys-wearing-masks-09-17-2019

https://local12.com/news/nation-wor...masks-as-they-attempted-to-rob-him-09-17-2019
  • Homeowner shot and killed three teens early Monday morning as they attempted to rob him
  • Robbers approached three residents at the front yard of the home and attempted to rob them
  • One of the would-be robbers took out a gun and fired shots at residents before one of the residents returned fire
  • Deputies arrived to find all three teens who had been shot lying in the driveway. One of the boys died at the scene. The other two later died at the hospital.
  • Homeowner is a truck driver who owns a semi-automatic rifle and is highly protective of his mother.
  • Georgia's self-defense laws state a person may "stand his or her ground," according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. The law allows people to respond to threats or force without fear of criminal prosecution.
  • Police haven't filed any charges as of Tuesday morning.
 
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rust collector said:
That's the problem with just tossing one or two first news accounts out there. We never have all the relevant facts. We only have stories designed to appeal to morbid curiosity.
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I am always in wait and see mode when stories first start "breaking". Reporters, no matter the media, are in such a rush to put out something that they often get misinformation and promulgate it as gospel.
 
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