380 defensive ammo? FMJ?
- Thread starter Elkins45
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The 12 inch minimum set up be the FBI is not relevant to self defense shooting anymore than shooting through windshields. When is the last time a self defense shooting involved shooting up a closed up car? 9 inches is enough penetration for self defense.
Jim
Jim
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The only time I would EVER use FMJs for self-defense is in a rifle.
Edcnh
Member
I use Hornady Custom XTP’s in 380. They did well in several expansion/penetration tests. I feel confident they would work if needed. My 380 is mainly used for summertime pocket carry.
I am posting something that I already posted elsewhere. It appears that .380 ammo is a hot topic.
Here’s the problem that I see with most .380 ammo testing. It usually is done with bare gel or clothed gel. This is because everyone knows that the round will fail FBI protocol testing with the 4 barrier tests (wallboard, auto glass, sheet metal and plywood). The justification for skipping those tests (that it will fail anyway) is that the .380 is a close quarters gun not intended to be deployed against those types of barriers. Well, that leaves a huge gap in testing, because an extremely common barrier is bone, which is not accounted for in bare gel or denim covered gel tests. So, I don’t view tests using those two media alone to be very dispositive. What I am looking for is a blunt nose, penetration of bone and adequate straight-line penetration without FMJ type overpenetration.
I settled on the Lehigh factory loaded Xtreme Penetrator. It is a standard pressure round that averages 954 fps out of my Glock 42. The round that did not hit bone went to about 13-3/4 inches, while the rounds that hit bone went to about 12” and 11-1/2 inches, respectively.
(Caution: People who don't like wind noise should turn the volume down.)
Paul Harrell appears to come to the same conclusion about adequate penetration without overpenetration. (See 1:50-5:00). Note that he was using a +P round as loaded by Underwood that averaged 42 fps faster out of his gun than the ammo I am using in mine.
The other thing to consider when watching YouTube videos is the velocity, because velocity changes everything. It is hard to know what your gun is doing unless you know your velocity in relation to other people’s test velocities.
I also shot some Gold Dots and some Buffalo Bore standard pressure hard casts against some gel blocks. The Gold Dots had shallow penetration generally, and really shallow penetration when they hit a bone. The Buffalo Bore penciled through and overpenetrated.
YMMV
Here’s the problem that I see with most .380 ammo testing. It usually is done with bare gel or clothed gel. This is because everyone knows that the round will fail FBI protocol testing with the 4 barrier tests (wallboard, auto glass, sheet metal and plywood). The justification for skipping those tests (that it will fail anyway) is that the .380 is a close quarters gun not intended to be deployed against those types of barriers. Well, that leaves a huge gap in testing, because an extremely common barrier is bone, which is not accounted for in bare gel or denim covered gel tests. So, I don’t view tests using those two media alone to be very dispositive. What I am looking for is a blunt nose, penetration of bone and adequate straight-line penetration without FMJ type overpenetration.
I settled on the Lehigh factory loaded Xtreme Penetrator. It is a standard pressure round that averages 954 fps out of my Glock 42. The round that did not hit bone went to about 13-3/4 inches, while the rounds that hit bone went to about 12” and 11-1/2 inches, respectively.
(Caution: People who don't like wind noise should turn the volume down.)
Paul Harrell appears to come to the same conclusion about adequate penetration without overpenetration. (See 1:50-5:00). Note that he was using a +P round as loaded by Underwood that averaged 42 fps faster out of his gun than the ammo I am using in mine.
The other thing to consider when watching YouTube videos is the velocity, because velocity changes everything. It is hard to know what your gun is doing unless you know your velocity in relation to other people’s test velocities.
I also shot some Gold Dots and some Buffalo Bore standard pressure hard casts against some gel blocks. The Gold Dots had shallow penetration generally, and really shallow penetration when they hit a bone. The Buffalo Bore penciled through and overpenetrated.
YMMV
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481
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rabid wombat
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Federal HST has good write ups...
My go to for 40...
My go to for 40...
Snowdog
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My apologies, 481. It's ballistic gelatin, the standard human analog for ballistic testing.
I presumed you were going to say something snarky along the lines of "people aren't made of ballistic gel" or "well, if I ever get attacked by a block of gelatin...".
Usually when I suspect that's going to be the response to my reply, I'll head it off with a redirecting load of nonsense.
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I’m not entirely settled on where I am with all this, though I carry FMJFN currently. I think Wyo makes a great point when he notes that
I believe it is also worth noting (again) that many more shots (in all calibers) miss rather than over-penetrate, which provides much more risk to others than any round largely spent by passing through the target.
I also think the talk of over-penetration of FMJ might well be, in fact, an argument in favor of the many 2.75 inch barreled pocket pistols over the 3.25-3.6 inch .380s, because 50 fps +/- reduction in velocity (prob not that much) make a FMJ more likely to not over-penetrate while still penetrating adequately. A 2.75 inch barrel and 95 Gr FMJ might, in fact, be the sweet spot.
It seem reasonable to me to think that many tests which show .380 FMJ over-penetrating might show .380 FMJ in a much better light should passing through bone be simulated. I’ve always believed that in the first hey-day of .380 in Europe in the 1930’s, when only FMJ was available in both .380 and 9MM, .380 provided that sweet spot of enough penetration without grossly over-penetrating, as did 9MM FMJ.
I believe it is also worth noting (again) that many more shots (in all calibers) miss rather than over-penetrate, which provides much more risk to others than any round largely spent by passing through the target.
I also think the talk of over-penetration of FMJ might well be, in fact, an argument in favor of the many 2.75 inch barreled pocket pistols over the 3.25-3.6 inch .380s, because 50 fps +/- reduction in velocity (prob not that much) make a FMJ more likely to not over-penetrate while still penetrating adequately. A 2.75 inch barrel and 95 Gr FMJ might, in fact, be the sweet spot.
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481
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No need to apologize. It is not like you were trying to offend me or anything like that. Given the nature of debate about the topic these days, a tendency towards a defensive response is not unexpected. If I were to offer anything in the way of commentary, I would only point out that any damage produced in ordnance gelatin does not necessarily correlate with damage that would occur in tissue, but I suspect that you already knew that.
We're good. No worries.
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