very early AR, circa 1960, 1905 03 still a 30-03

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tark

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Did inventory Friday at the museum. Here is a very early AR dated back to 1960. Notice the duck billed flash supressor, the greenish plastic, no forward assist and no fences around the mag release. It has a 1-14 twist barrel with no chrome. I was shocked when I picked it up, I had forgotten how light the original ARs were.

Pic #2 is the unfired 03 I posted about a couple of months ago. It is even more impressive up close. It has no cartouche and no circle P on the underside of the grip. It really is unfired. A rare bird indeed.

Finally, I have to sneak in a pic of a very special guest we had last month. Hope the moderator will forgive. He is Hershel "Woody" Williams and he is 95

All of you Marines out there, this man is among your greatest. He has a load of lesser medals to go along with his. purple hearts. He is the oldest living recipient of the Medal of Honor.

Semper Fi
 

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tark said:
Finally, I have to sneak in a pic of a very special guest we had last month. Hope the moderator will forgive. He is Hershel "Woody" Williams and he is 95

All of you Marines out there, this man is among your greatest. He has a load of lesser medals to go along with his. purple hearts. He is the oldest living recipient of the Medal of Honor.

Semper Fi
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fpgt72 said:
Question for you....

Having worked with "old" books we always had cotton gloves, is latex common is the "old" gun area....if so why?
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The first inventory I participated in, last year, We wore cotton gloves. Not really sure why we changed to latex, but I'll ask the Director next time I see him. I suspect It is because the cotton gloves are porous whereas the Latex forms an impenetrable barrier.
 
tark said:
Did inventory Friday at the museum. Here is a very early AR dated back to 1960. Notice the duck billed flash supressor, the greenish plastic, no forward assist and no fences around the mag release. It has a 1-14 twist barrel with no chrome. I was shocked when I picked it up, I had forgotten how light the original ARs were.

Pic #2 is the unfired 03 I posted about a couple of months ago. It is even more impressive up close. It has no cartouche and no circle P on the underside of the grip. It really is unfired. A rare bird indeed.

Finally, I have to sneak in a pic of a very special guest we had last month. Hope the moderator will forgive. He is Hershel "Woody" Williams and he is 95

All of you Marines out there, this man is among your greatest. He has a load of lesser medals to go along with his. purple hearts. He is the oldest living recipient of the Medal of Honor.

Semper Fi
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Thanks Tark, always fun to peek inside the collection!
 
roscoe said:
I would not want to go into combat in the jungle with an M16 with no forward assist.
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How many times have you needed it?

From what I understand it was an answer to a problem that was created by the army.

I am pretty far from an "AR guy" and I might be quoting an "internet expert" but there is a bald guy on the youstubes that went over the history of the rifle, down to welding rod being used for front sights in AK.

IIRC it all came from the powder change, faster rate, parts issues, getting gooky and having to force the gun into battery.....why is the fantastic AR the only gun that comes to mind that you must force into battery?...... It seems to be something that is expected......needed.....you have to have this feature....a way to force it into battery or heck "I don't want to go into combat with it" if I can't make force it into battery.

I am sitting here trying to think of another rifle that does not have a moving bolt handle that has this same "forward assist" feature.

And when would this "feature" save your butt.....stuck case....nope the gun is a club at that point.....unless the thing is so darn dirty....just in the right place to make it not jam but in the place to not let enough gas through I guess it would help there. I really think the days of ammo that out of spec are behind us, if you are so worried about that how about an adjustable gas system.....yea I know then you have idiots fooling with it....but if ammo was an issue you would see that.....I really think this is why the SVT has it....mother russia making boolits in the middle of the war....I bet the quality was a bit hit and miss.

Anyhoo I drifted.....forward assist, something the gun needed because the guberment screwed up the gun in the first place.
 
fpgt72 said:
How many times have you needed it?

From what I understand it was an answer to a problem that was created by the army.

I am pretty far from an "AR guy" and I might be quoting an "internet expert" but there is a bald guy on the youstubes that went over the history of the rifle, down to welding rod being used for front sights in AK.

IIRC it all came from the powder change, faster rate, parts issues, getting gooky and having to force the gun into battery.....why is the fantastic AR the only gun that comes to mind that you must force into battery?...... It seems to be something that is expected......needed.....you have to have this feature....a way to force it into battery or heck "I don't want to go into combat with it" if I can't make force it into battery.

I am sitting here trying to think of another rifle that does not have a moving bolt handle that has this same "forward assist" feature.

And when would this "feature" save your butt.....stuck case....nope the gun is a club at that point.....unless the thing is so darn dirty....just in the right place to make it not jam but in the place to not let enough gas through I guess it would help there. I really think the days of ammo that out of spec are behind us, if you are so worried about that how about an adjustable gas system.....yea I know then you have idiots fooling with it....but if ammo was an issue you would see that.....I really think this is why the SVT has it....mother russia making boolits in the middle of the war....I bet the quality was a bit hit and miss.

Anyhoo I drifted.....forward assist, something the gun needed because the guberment screwed up the gun in the first place.
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Yeah - my point exactly. With an AK you just bang the lever with the heel of your hand.
 
tark said:
Did inventory Friday at the museum. Here is a very early AR dated back to 1960. Notice the duck billed flash supressor, the greenish plastic, no forward assist and no fences around the mag release. It has a 1-14 twist barrel with no chrome. I was shocked when I picked it up, I had forgotten how light the original ARs were.

Pic #2 is the unfired 03 I posted about a couple of months ago. It is even more impressive up close. It has no cartouche and no circle P on the underside of the grip. It really is unfired. A rare bird indeed.

Finally, I have to sneak in a pic of a very special guest we had last month. Hope the moderator will forgive. He is Hershel "Woody" Williams and he is 95

All of you Marines out there, this man is among your greatest. He has a load of lesser medals to go along with his. purple hearts. He is the oldest living recipient of the Medal of Honor.

Semper Fi
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Semper Fi to you and Mr. Williams. That had to be something. I've never had the honor to meet anyone who won the Medal.
 
Thanks Boattale but I don't deserve a "semper fi" . I was an Army man. Semper Fi is a special phrase, more like an oath, that is spoken by and for Marines. I don't say it myself, but when talking about Woody, it seemed appropriate.

That forward assist may or may not be a necessary feature, but Gene Stoner blew up like a bomb when he saw the prototype we have in the Museum. He was very much against beating on his bolt carrier. Things got nasty and he left Armalite in 1961. I am told that that cobbled together , added on forward assist is the prototype that irritated Mr. Stoner. Don't know if that's true or not.

fpgt72, I was right. The latex provides an impenetrable shield. Sweat can eventually seep through cotton gloves.
 

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Regarding the Forward Assist:
SOP in my unit in 1970 dictated that no one was supposed to be in condition one except the guy walking point. Everyone behind him was supposed to carry on Safe, with mag inserted and an open bolt unless you were in an on line assault, set up in an ambush or at a guard hole at your NDP. (this was not religiously followed but could earn you an article 15 if your Lt. or (more likely) 1st Sgt had a case of the ass).
The forward assist allowed you to chamber a round silently by easing the bolt forward using the charging handle until the cartridge was almost chambered; then nudging it home with the assist. That was a nightly routine as you went on guard duty (and, hopefully reversed before you stumbled back to your hooch, in the dark after you were relieved). I used the assist in this way probably 250-300 times over the course of my 10 month, 21 day tour.
 
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That is a very early AR.
I would love to look it over just out of curiosity.

No chrome lining, no forward assist, no "fence" around the mag release button, 1n14 twist, green furniture... very impressive.
 
roscoe said:
Yeah - my point exactly. With an AK you just bang the lever with the heel of your hand.
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I was talking about the trials in alaska....the state code is AK.

Sorry now that I think about it that could really be confusing.
 
MutinousDoug said:
Regarding the Forward Assist:
SOP in my unit in 1970 dictated that no one was supposed to be in condition one except the guy walking point. Everyone behind him was supposed to carry on Safe, with mag inserted and an open bolt unless you were in an on line assault, set up in an ambush or at a guard hole at your NDP. (this was not religiously followed but could earn you an article 15 if your Lt. or (more likely) 1st Sgt had a case of the ass).
The forward assist allowed you to chamber a round silently by easing the bolt forward using the charging handle until the cartridge was almost chambered; then nudging it home with the assist. That was a nightly routine as you went on guard duty (and, hopefully reversed before you stumbled back to your hooch, in the dark after you were relieved). I used the assist in this way probably 250-300 times over the course of my 10 month, 21 day tour.
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Wonder how it worked up to that point.....and to think of those poor auzzies and kiwi's running around with fals....amazing any of them made it home.

I get your point, but a pretty weak defense of the system, and not what it was intended for.
 
I ran into a MoH holder in Stuttgart in 1973. The NCO was in greens and wearing the bar/ribbon. As we passed I snapped up a salute and said "Good Morning Sargent, and thank you" He chuckles and returned my salute. A few seconds later an E-6 with our group explained to me that one does not salute an NCO. I explained I had not. He argued he had just seen me do so. I explained I had saluted a MoH wearer and he got very "small" as he had not noticed it.

I have seen the Forward Assist used a lot, used them a fair amount and would not have had one of the hairiest nights of my life if someone else had not gone into panic mode and NOT used one.

For a bit HK made some models of the G3 with a FA and also made a "finger print" ( a little oval shaped area of raised lines) on the bolt carrier of the G3 for use in closing a bolt carrier not fully forward. If one had fired a few magazines and had to use the finger print it could brand one's thumb just like using the ejection port cover cut out on the bolt carrier on non FA equipped M 16/ AR 15 could, but with a more interesting design.

-kBob
 
fpgt72 said:
What other rifles have a forward assist?
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H&K PSG-1 had a forward assist. Also, Israelis added it to their FAL. They were the only FAL user to do it. Of course these days it's on every AR. HK-416 obviously has it.

Forward assist in AR causes way more problems than it solves, and it tends to turn a minor malfunction into a major jam that disables the gun completely. If the gun is not in battery, it is much safer to remove the bad cartridge out of the system and continue firing. Unfortunately, there's one reason why forward assist is needed on AR: you cannot open it up if it is out of the battery, so the carrier's tail enters the buffer tube. If only there was a way to make grunts not to smack forward assist. I don't know, maybe a sergeant who kicks them when they do.
 
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zaitcev said:
Forward assist in AR causes way more problems than it solves, and it tends to turn a minor malfunction into a major jam that disables the gun completely. If the gun is not in battery, it is much safer to remove the bad cartridge out of the system and continue firing. Unfortunately, there's one reason why forward assist is needed on AR: you cannot open it up if it is out of the battery, so the carrier's tail enters the buffer tube. If only there was a way to make grunts not to smack forward assist. I don't know, maybe a sergeant who kicks them when they do.
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I'm guessing that is why stoner was so upset. This whole forward assist debate has piqued my interest. I met a LOT of Vietnam vets at the museum. I'm gonna start a poll to see how many of em' actually used their F/As and did it fix the stoppage.
 
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