WW2 Russian Sidearms

I was under the impression front line conscripts weren’t always issued a primary arm, let alone a sidearm....

Willing to bet handguns were largely limited to the officer class.

"The man with rifle shoots. When the man with the rifle dies, the other man picks up the rifle and shoots."

Mr. Mosin said:

Saw a post similar to this elsewhere, so I thought I'd do one for Russia. I know both the TT-33, and Nagant revolver were in use; along with various other sidearms that I'm unaware of. How often did your front line grunt get a sidearm to accompany his Mosin Nagant, PPS/h and SVT ? What did officers carry ?

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Front line infantry enlisted were never issued handguns.

Officers carried 7.62x25mm TT-33 Tokarev pistols (front line units) or 7.62x38mmR M-1895 Nagant revolvers (reserve units).

NKVD agents/operatives used .25ACP TK Korovin pistols and 7.62x38mmR M-1895 Nagant revolvers, some were equiped with noise suppressors.

From what I've read, the officers used their sidearms to make the conscripts fight. If they ran, they died. If they fought, they might die.

I do not know how true this is.

Regards,
Josh

DairyVet said:

I was under the impression front line conscripts weren’t always issued a primary arm, let alone a sidearm....

Willing to bet handguns were largely limited to the officer class.

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That's generally movie BS, though it's possible when the Nazis were knocking on the door. However, there were a lot of submachine guns being stamped out at that time, too.

Regards,
Josh

With the Russians capturing many Luger P08's and Walther P38's, do you think the Russian officer's carried any of these? Be interesting...

I've never read a Russian WWII infantry memoir, though I have a very good one written by a pilot.

The German memoirs are pretty consistent that Russian prisoners reported being afraid of being shot by the commissars if they tried to hang back in a fight, rather than the regular officers.

I know that the TT-33 and Nagants were issued, though not how many or to whom. If there were others available, doubtless the Russians would have used them.

The NKVD officer that shot several other German prisoners in the presence of some one I knew used a TT-33.

One WWII German Soldier I spoke with said they occasionally ran across a .44 Russian revolver and that they were highly prized by German troops both as a "cowboy gun" and large caliber.

He also claimed to have seen un armed Russians following the attacking front ranks and picking up dropped rifles.

Another German I met in Germany in the early 1970's claimed to have seen Russian troops trying to retreat being fired on by Russian machine guns.

-kBob

MosinT53Hunter said:

With the Russians capturing many Luger P08's and Walther P38's, do you think the Russian officer's carried any of these? Be interesting...

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Now look, I do not want anyone yelling at me for this post, because it will rip your hear out.. But seems the russian still have lots of German guns laying around..

https://www.guns.com/news/2019/01/2...urch-with-captured-german-wwii-era-guns-video

Joshua M. Smith said:

That's generally movie BS, though it's possible when the Nazis were knocking on the door. However, there were a lot of submachine guns being stamped out at that time, too.

Regards,
Josh

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Much of that comes from the period of WW1 and the Russian revolution. During the brief time I spent in grad school, I made friends with the resident Russian history expert. He was telling me about reading primary source documents in Moscow about how private no class was sometimes not armed because 1.they didn't have enough, and 2. they were afraid of a revolt. Keep in mind that Russia and the U.S.S.R. were very backward in their military thinking in the early 20th century. Now, by WW2, that had changed, but they had logistical issues that didn't help...

Quiet said:

Front line infantry enlisted were never issued handguns.

Officers carried 7.62x25mm TT-33 Tokarev pistols (front line units) or 7.62x38mmR M-1895 Nagant revolvers (reserve units).

NKVD agents/operatives used .25ACP TK Korovin pistols and 7.62x38mmR M-1895 Nagant revolvers, some were equiped with noise suppressors.

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In addition to the these official inventoried guns, some older guys, who avoided purges, brought with them their addressed weapons, commonly a WWI or 1920s vintage Mauser C96. But some even carried exotics like Schwarzlosse 1985, or absurdly old by that time Smith & Wesson .44 revolver. A friend of mine was a digger in the 80s and he found a completely rusted Smith in an old trench near Naro-Fominsk. I have no idea where they obtained the ammunition for those black powder guns.

The ammunition question is an interesting one. Some guys brought 9x21 Largo guns from Spain in 1936, others had 1914 Mausers in 7.65. Neither of those was produced by Soviet factories. At least C96 and Schwarzlosse fired 7.62x25. These days we fret about the safety of this practice, but it was a war back then, so nobody sweated the small stuff.

I agree that junior officers at the front line carried TT and basically nothing else, up to the level of a Kombat or later Captain. All these Civil War veterans with their non-standard guns were either purged or promoted by the WWII.

MosinT53Hunter said:

With the Russians capturing many Luger P08's and Walther P38's, do you think the Russian officer's carried any of these? Be interesting...

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They weren't "carrying" Lugers per se. However, I read memoirs of officers stationed in Baltics, who put down the guerilla after the war. When they went out for a clean-up or a raid, they took either TT or Luger per individual preference. They actively practiced with their "work" guns and most were crack shots in the 1940s version of tactical shooting (e.g. one-handed). But the users of Lugers would never wear the German holster for an evening parade. They'd risk losing the gun at best, going under a court-martial in the worst case.

Soviet tank crews supposedly preferred the Nagant revolver because of no cases being ejected in the tank and also because the fixed slender barrel of the Nagant was easier to put through firing ports.

Charlie Horse said:

Much of that comes from the period of WW1 and the Russian revolution. During the brief time I spent in grad school, I made friends with the resident Russian history expert. He was telling me about reading primary source documents in Moscow about how private no class was sometimes not armed because 1.they didn't have enough, and 2. they were afraid of a revolt. Keep in mind that Russia and the U.S.S.R. were very backward in their military thinking in the early 20th century. Now, by WW2, that had changed, but they had logistical issues that didn't help...

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Thank you, Charlie Horse. That's valuable info.

Regards,
Josh

indy1919a4 said:

Now look, I do not want anyone yelling at me for this post, because it will rip your hear out.. But seems the russian still have lots of German guns laying around..

https://www.guns.com/news/2019/01/2...urch-with-captured-german-wwii-era-guns-video

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Man! If they could sell those off (through a foreign proxy, of course) to U.S. Collectors, the Russian economy would get quite a boost! I mean ... I'd feel really bad and all but ... gimmie those Lugers!

I spoke at length with a Great Uncle in Germany while I visited in the late '90s. He shared my interest in firearms and competetive shooting (he showed me his old Hitler Youth marksmanship awards, and international high power medals from after the war). He entered action during the siege of Leningrad, and stayed with the Wehrmacht through the retreat into the Baltics where he snuck along with a Finnish unit he had fought with when Finland settled a separate peace. They had captured many weapons in their drive on Leningrad, and he said that almost anything, from civilian hunting arms to black powder cartridge arms could be found in a Soviet cache. The P-38, Luger, MP40 and Finnish Suomi were especially prized by Soviet tank crews and various officers in his section of the war. 9mm ammunition was also quite common on the Northern front, with 9mm sidearms and SMGs being issued to RE troops they captured (then re-issued to German or Finnish units), so anything in 9mm could be fairly easily supplied. He also said, ironically as the tables turned, Soviet caliber weapons became common among the German troops in his group, as ammunition supplies of 7.62 Tokarev and 7.62x54R were more reliable than German supplies.

A problem with using enemy firearms is if they have a distinctive noise signature and you can't be seen, they have the potential for bringing friendly fire down on yourself.

Speedo66 said:

A problem with using enemy firearms is if they have a distinctive noise signature and you can't be seen, they have the potential for bringing friendly fire down on yourself.

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I've read that in Vietnam memoirs more than any. Apparently it could be a fatal error.

CeltKnight said:

Man! If they could sell those off (through a foreign proxy, of course) to U.S. Collectors, the Russian economy would get quite a boost! I mean ... I'd feel really bad and all but ... gimmie those Lugers!

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I can not believe that they are looking at destroying those to make a walk way.. One side of me likes the idea of taking fascist instruments of war and turning them into a pathway ... But that is going to be some expensive building materials...

Random 8 said:

He also said, ironically as the tables turned, Soviet caliber weapons became common among the German troops in his group, as ammunition supplies of 7.62 Tokarev and 7.62x54R were more reliable than German supplies.

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Neat personal Oral history, In the early stages of WW II German solders were forbidden to use captured weapons.. But that soon changed..

I believe I've seen pictures of Soviet troops carrying captured P-38s and P-08s. I also believe that a few Mauser C96s were issued, having been used since WWI. That's one reason why the TT-30 and TT-33 were adopted.

zaitcev said:

When they went out for a clean-up or a raid, they took either TT or Luger per individual preference.

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I would take a TT-33 over a P08 to bet my life on in battle any day!

The 1895 Nagant is a fine solid reliable weapon in my experience but is has a pretty wicked trigger on it. I have been told that they were liked by tank crews for clearing their tanks of hostile infantry because they exhaust all of their gases out the front of the muzzle lowering the noise and gasses in the tank when shot and there is no reciprocating slide to get hung up in the gun ports. I don't know if that is true but it sounds good.

I would love to pickup some of the Japanese WWII handguns (Type 14 Nambu, Type 94 Nambu and Type 26 revolver) but I have never handled them no less shot them so I can't really comment on them.


(Yes, I know it is a CZ-52 and not a TT-33. My TT-33, and VIS were traded off quite a while ago for a Ljungman)