So, here's the question for guys out there who have experience with high-end barrels like Volquartsen and Proof Research compared to cheaper yet functional barrels by Savage. Do you find, say, Proof Research barrels to be lots better than Savage, Ruger, Remington??
High-end rifle barrels
- Thread starter Sniper66
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C-grunt
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Ive had several target rifles from Remington and Savage. All were sub MOA with match ammo. Usually around .6 to .8 inch 5 round groups at 100 yards.
I have a Gradous 6.5 Creedmoor barrel on my AIAT. If I shoot over a 1/2 inch group with match ammo it's me. It's averaging .3 to .4 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards.
I have a Gradous 6.5 Creedmoor barrel on my AIAT. If I shoot over a 1/2 inch group with match ammo it's me. It's averaging .3 to .4 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards.
C-grunt
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shot_1550095634607 by Chase Ditwiler, on Flickr
Rembrandt
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I have a few Volquartsen's with air-gauged match grade barrels. A precision, no exception (as close to flawless as possible), straight shooting barrel. The quality is very closely maintained, and the barrels are precision crowned and have a rate of twist to accomodate heavy match grade bullets. Just means they are held to tighter tolerances than what mass production barrels are.
yeah, way better. i had one good rem700 that would put 168g SMKs touching pretty much all the time. i thought they were all like that. the next several rem700s i got were realistically 1-1.5MOA guns.
i've had more than 20 bartlein, broughton, lilja, krieger, etc and there's no comparison. i've posted many 10-15 round sub MOA groups here.
but it's not like they're just magically more accurate. it's a lot of little things that make them better. the steel is better. the hand lapping makes a difference. the cut rifling or button + cryo treatment vs whatever factory process... makes a difference because the twist is maintained better and doesn't wander. the barrel isn't stressed so isn't as quick to wander when it heats up. etc.
that said, rem probably has $30-60 in a barrel, while a top tier barrel is going to sell for $300-360. you pay 10x for that difference and maybe it's not worth it to a lot of people.
proof makes good barrels. i've also had volquartsen, though not in a centerfire.
i've had more than 20 bartlein, broughton, lilja, krieger, etc and there's no comparison. i've posted many 10-15 round sub MOA groups here.
but it's not like they're just magically more accurate. it's a lot of little things that make them better. the steel is better. the hand lapping makes a difference. the cut rifling or button + cryo treatment vs whatever factory process... makes a difference because the twist is maintained better and doesn't wander. the barrel isn't stressed so isn't as quick to wander when it heats up. etc.
that said, rem probably has $30-60 in a barrel, while a top tier barrel is going to sell for $300-360. you pay 10x for that difference and maybe it's not worth it to a lot of people.
proof makes good barrels. i've also had volquartsen, though not in a centerfire.
witchhunter
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No question, the match barrels are better quality. You can feel the difference with a patch down the tube. Smooth. Load work ups are way easier as they all shoot better.
Nature Boy
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Savage 12 BVSS .223, no change other than the barrel.
5 shots at 100 yards
Stock barrel on top. Shilen match barrel on bottom
If making tiny groups is your thing I’d say the barrel might be the most important component in your system
5 shots at 100 yards
Stock barrel on top. Shilen match barrel on bottom
If making tiny groups is your thing I’d say the barrel might be the most important component in your system
Skylerbone
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I think there are a few “high end” barrel makers that really aren’t. They may charge more without delivering the goods or may have at one time then slowly lapsed in quality.
I’d say the shooter is the most important factor but even the best cannot extract accuracy that does not exist. Likewise the best barrel on the planet is near worthless unless part of a rifle that does not detract from its potential. A fair number of kitchen table guys have wrung out lost accuracy from mediocre rifles through countless methods with great but not award winning accuracy and so the question then becomes are you in for a penny or in for a pound because racing slicks on a Yugo is money wasted.
I’d say the shooter is the most important factor but even the best cannot extract accuracy that does not exist. Likewise the best barrel on the planet is near worthless unless part of a rifle that does not detract from its potential. A fair number of kitchen table guys have wrung out lost accuracy from mediocre rifles through countless methods with great but not award winning accuracy and so the question then becomes are you in for a penny or in for a pound because racing slicks on a Yugo is money wasted.
Archie
Member
Sub minute of angle barrels made sense only if one intends to compete in a certain discipline. Bench rest or the long range sort of competition.
Since my eyes don't do nearly as good a job as once they did, the target zone of a deer at less then three hundred yards is about all I can handle. I think too many folks are overcome by stories of three inch groups at nine hundred yards.
Since my eyes don't do nearly as good a job as once they did, the target zone of a deer at less then three hundred yards is about all I can handle. I think too many folks are overcome by stories of three inch groups at nine hundred yards.
Well. Yes they make a difference. But what are you looking for. My match grade barrels are tested at 300yds. Minimum distance for load development and potential. Otherwise they all touch bullets and that's the end of story. Some factory rifles do this at 100 yards. So what's the endgame? 500 yards or 1600 yards MOA?
These are good questions I should be asking myself. I have several good rifles that, with my reloads, will kill about anything I aim for. As I live and learn, I find owning and using really fine products appeals to me. I'm not really a target shooter except for zeroing scopes and practicing trigger squeeze, breath control, etc. The net result being able to hit a deer behind the ear or prairie dogs at varying distance with several calibers. I have good rimfires too, but less control over the ammo that runs though them; as in I don't reload them. So.........at this point in the my process, I'm tryin g to learn as much as I can about the pluses and minuses of many aspects of rifle function including top quality barrels. Thanks for your help in all this.
I'd guess you're overstating how much Remington has in a barrel. They have rifles that retail for ~$300. There's no way that the barrel is 10-20% of the retail price. I'd say that for the lower end rifles they MIGHT have $15 in the barrel.
Varminterror
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Yes. Absolutely.
Not all aftermarket barrels are created equally, but Bartlein, Proof, Shilen, Lilja, and Krieger (among several others) make fantastic barrels.
Most hammer forged or button rifled barrels in factory rifles made in recent years will shoot sub-MOA, but some might be 1.25moa on its best day. Most any custom/aftermarket barrel will shrink that group a few tenths of an inch, but some might still only be slightly sub-MOA. Anything from those makers above I expect to reliably print sub-half-MOA when properly spun up to an action.
The best barrels don't usually group factory ammo under 1/2 MOA for long strings or several groups, but learning how to reload for accuracy; choosing the right bullets, great powder for the cartridge/bullet weight; testing bullet seating depth, various primers, sorting cases by make/times fired, weight, lot numbers and other factors often make the difference between winning or losing matches. The "Nut" behind the buttplate and his/her ability to be very consistent in holding, aiming, squeezing is the last big factor. You can't replace the "Nut", but it can be educated and seasoned.
Weather; especially wind, light, mirage are also important when striving for accuracy. I can't shoot as well at my home range because the mirage and wind are so bad. The Capitol City Multi-Purpose Range in Augusta, ME is about the best place I've encountered for consistency, especially when the sun has moved Southerly in mid-late morning. The ground is mostly "dead" sand so mirage isn't often a big problem.
Weather; especially wind, light, mirage are also important when striving for accuracy. I can't shoot as well at my home range because the mirage and wind are so bad. The Capitol City Multi-Purpose Range in Augusta, ME is about the best place I've encountered for consistency, especially when the sun has moved Southerly in mid-late morning. The ground is mostly "dead" sand so mirage isn't often a big problem.
I'd like to see a factory barrel with factory ammunition shoot two 10-shot groups in less than 10 minutes that look like this. I shot these groups recently using my AI AW with a Bartlein barrel. This is normal for my AI rifles, not cherry picked groups. I've had three barrels from Krieger as well as a barrel from McGowen. I currently have four Lothar Walther barrels, two Bartlein barrels, a Criterion barrel, a Proof barrel, three Rock Creek barrels and some Bergara barrels. I've had a lot of factory rifles over the years, some really good ones, but none can compare to the accuracy, precision and consistency that I've seen from high-end barrel makers.
taliv said:
That's an odd question re the color but no, it's green. It came with a Lothar Walther .308 Win barrel but I screwed on a Barlein 6.5 CM barrel from MHSA. And no, I don't consider Bergara to be in the same class as Krieger, Bartlein, Proof, Lother Walther etc. Bergara makes a very good production barrel and possibly one of the best button rifled barrels available, but it's not in the same class as a good single point cut barrel.
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redneck2
Member
If you look thru a bore scope at some factory barrels they look like they were cut with a hammer and chisel (a Savage I had). As noted, you can tell a high quality barrel when you run a patch thru
My CZ’s have smoother barrels than Remington for example. That’s why they shoot so well IMO
Guys tend to paint manufactures with a broad brush. All savage/Winchester/Remington must be good/bad because I had/heard of one that was good/bad
When you buy something with supposedly higher quality, it doesn’t guarantee it’s superior, but the odds are higher the more you spend
My CZ’s have smoother barrels than Remington for example. That’s why they shoot so well IMO
Guys tend to paint manufactures with a broad brush. All savage/Winchester/Remington must be good/bad because I had/heard of one that was good/bad
When you buy something with supposedly higher quality, it doesn’t guarantee it’s superior, but the odds are higher the more you spend
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i was just going to be a smartass about your target saying it was a black rifle challenge
Skylerbone
Member
Cold hammer forged barrels are very smooth and ought to appear more uniform than others but remember manufacturers like FN ship AR barrels in great quantity that no one would use in a precision AR despite their uniform appearance.
OP for a hunting rifle you’ll need to consider chamber dimensions which you’ll need to know and hand loading to make use of them. A lot of guys stuff bullets atop the wrong powder and have excellent range days only to discover their pet load didn’t perform in some other climate. Others get to have their bolt handle soldered back on.
If you aren’t willing to exhibit tight control over every facet and really learn the rifle you might be better served letting go of the stone. If you have the money and patience however I’d say go for it, or sell what you have and start fresh with a semi-custom meant for hunting.
If you want to shoot aggregates under 1/4" and be competitive in a registered Benchrest match, you better be running a high end barrel from Shilen, Bartlien, Hart, Liljs, Krieger, etc, etc.
And of course there are a lot of options between those and very good to poor factory barrels.
And of course there are a lot of options between those and very good to poor factory barrels.
Chuck R.
Member
In addition to the accuracy, don't forget the ease of cleaning....it's night and day between a factory barrel and a hand lapped custom.
old heeler
Member
This is result from BR match. At the bottom is list what was used
uhttps://internationalbenchrest.com/app/ibs/files-module/local/documents/Holton%20MI%20IBS%20Group%20Nationals%20081219.pdfsed.
Kreiger/Bartlein barrels
uhttps://internationalbenchrest.com/app/ibs/files-module/local/documents/Holton%20MI%20IBS%20Group%20Nationals%20081219.pdfsed.
Kreiger/Bartlein barrels
interesting, thanks for link. they all used same powder, cartridge and action for the most part too
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