huntsman
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I would rather deal with the rare semi-auto malfunction than with the constant 12lb trigger pull. I guess for me it doesn’t get any simpler, all the rest is background noise.
Revolver or Semi-Auto for EDC?
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CajunBass
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I've carried both at one time or another, but always seem to come back to revolvers. Mostly because I like revolvers. Pretty simple.
If it happens that I can't handle the situation with that...well, I'm having a really bad day.
If it happens that I can't handle the situation with that...well, I'm having a really bad day.
Trunk Monkey
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Even if you can handle the situation with that I'd say you're having a really bad day
CajunBass
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Your point is well taken, but I was thinking in terms of already a REALLY bad day.
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Jim Rau
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mcb, no offence, but we are talking apples and oranges here. You were dealing with 'shooters' , not the average SD person, who were involved with a form of the shooting 'sports' not just SD/EDC. Actually you proved my point that those who wish to TAKE THE TIME to train and practice with an auto are a true minority, and those who do wish to use a SA MUST spend more time to be come proficient with the 'tool' which is much more complicated to operate. I have trained 100's of people and only a VERY few have went on to do any competitive shooting. But those who did took the time (the learning curve for a SA as opposed to a revolver is 4 to 5 time greater) and got the training and spent the money to practice A LOT. Like I said, the VAST majority who carry ONLY for SD do not, thus the revolver is the common sense choice for them.
mcb
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Not sure I follow. Learning the fundamental operations of either action is not what I would call difficult. Although the revolver admittedly has a slightly simpler manual of arms you can learn how to operate either actions in a few short hours of instruction and be moderately proficient with basic operation and marksmanship of either system with a few sessions of practice. But being able to stand in the booth at the local indoor range, load and shoot your chosen handgun at a static target is IMHO far from being ready to EDC, both from a gun handling skills (the subject of this post) and all the other legal, situational awareness etc aspects of SD.
If we then take this shooters that has this minimal set of skills (ie the fundamental operation and basic marksmanship) and throw them into a self-defense training session or an IDPA or USPSA match the short comings of the revolver become glaringly obvious.
Throw that time pressure (whether training or competition) on there and suddenly that double action revolver trigger is brutal on the accuracy and thumbing the hammer become painfully slow. When you all too soon run the revolver dry the reloads that seem easy standing in the booth at the indoor range become a fumbling juggling act under the time pressure. Throw in some shooter moment, awkward shooting positions, and moving targets and this all get even worse. From watching new shooter learn these skills in these settings is why I assert that despite the revolver having the simple manual of arms the amount of time it takes to be proficient with the gun handling skills that really matter in the real world (self-defense carry or competition) take longer with a revolver.
Then the more proficient you become with both the revolver and semi-auto the more you also realize that ultimately no matter how much you practice with the revolver you will always be slower and less efficient than the semi-auto would be, with a similar amount of training invested. The double action trigger is always going to be slower on the follow up shots than a semi-auto trigger, especially a single action semi-auto trigger. The double action revolver trigger is always going to take more practice to be equally accurate. The capacity is always lower in the revolver for similar size/weight handguns. The revolver reloads are always slower, and require more fine motor skill to execute.
Everything you would do in a real gun fight with a revolver is at best equal and in many aspect slower, more difficult, and less efficient than a comparable semi-auto. There is a reason the revolver divisions have all but died in the practical pistol sports. Last I looked the Revolver division only made up ~2% of USPSA competitors and I suspect it's about the same in IDPA. Revolvers are harder to learn to run in the dynamic situations these sports provide and even when you master them you are still slower then the semi-autos. This knowledge/experience then carries over to what these competitors carry for self defense.
As much as I love revolvers and shooting revolver in USPSA and IDPA competition I am under no delusion that the revolver offers any meaningful advantage over a semi-auto in real world SD situation and that is true for the novice and the expert IMHO.
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WrongHanded
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If I were to use an IDPA or USPSA course to practice my Self Defense skills, I'd be off that course so fast I'd be knocking spectators over.
IMO, the "defensive" gun sports are a lot like Martial Arts. Play by the rules and you get really good at playing by the rules. Not a problem if you want to compete. But I don't believe doing so trains you to survive.
No one really thinks IDPA or USPSA is real training. It does give you practice in the skill set of aiming, trigger control, reloading, etc. Tactically, the scenarios are for fun only. If the revolver vs. semi debate, the major point is the slowness of revolver reloads in the unlikely but can happen higher intensity critical incident. The fast reload, Jerry is a god argument, doesn't really count as people don't EDC those set ups. Granted folks don't EDC the USPSA set ups but the IDPA set up is more realistic. Many folks carry a semi and a mag or two in a realistic gear set.
It's just skills practice. I once said to a friend, match director, we should replace the guns with airsoft and the targets with folks with airsoft guns (as in some FOF). No one would 'survive' a stage. Good point about the sports oriented martial arts - there were rules that took out the really evil things. Dabble with that in my youth. The sensei, who was from Japan, and had a master's in teaching Judo from the University of Tokyo, said the first thing was to run away. The second was that if you managed to do a maneuver, then run away. One guy protested. The sensei set up a realistic attack and clobbered him.
It's just skills practice. I once said to a friend, match director, we should replace the guns with airsoft and the targets with folks with airsoft guns (as in some FOF). No one would 'survive' a stage. Good point about the sports oriented martial arts - there were rules that took out the really evil things. Dabble with that in my youth. The sensei, who was from Japan, and had a master's in teaching Judo from the University of Tokyo, said the first thing was to run away. The second was that if you managed to do a maneuver, then run away. One guy protested. The sensei set up a realistic attack and clobbered him.
Seems to me we should be glad you're still with us.
First of all, let me admit that I'm one of those concealed carriers who's never been in a violent confrontation. I carry to protect myself and my family, but I've never had to draw on anyone. Came close once, but didn't actually draw. With that said, there are lots of concealed-hammer revolvers out there from which to choose. Mine is a Ruger LCR, I'm very pleased with it.
FWIW, and reminding you of my caveat above, one of the things I decided several years ago, and which I suggest you consider is this: If your revolver doesn't have a safety, why would you want to carry a semiauto that does? I went from cc-ing a 1911 only to CC-ing either a 1911 or a G19. Then I bought my LCR. What worried me (whether justified or not) was the prospect of forgetting to swipe the safety off on the 1911 at an inopportune moment. It never happened in practice, so maybe the odds were against it. Still, we don't carry because of the odds. We carry because of the stakes.
mcb
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I agree, if I stepped into a situation with 16 "bad-guys" as you might at a USPSA match the last thing I would do is engage. Retreat is always the best option.
I stated it earlier and will repeat here; USPSA and IDPA are not real world training. What these practical shooting sports are is a very good way to learn gun handling skills. They teach you all the aspects of the gun handling skills you might need. Draw, shooting fast and accurate and in awkward positions, reloading quickly and how to deal with malfunctions quickly. If you do this enough those skills become muscle memory and second nature. This becomes important in a self defense situation because now your brain is now free to figure out how to extricate your arse from the situation (using all the other training you have hopefully had) hopefully without shooting but if it does come to the use of lethal force your brain is free to stay situationally aware while the actual manipulation of the handgun come with minimal mental load.
The practical shooting sports are also an excellent laboratory for testing hardware. The way these sports are scored if your hardware; handgun, holster, ammunition carriers etc does not run your score will be punished accordingly. If you want to know if you CCW rig is good, go shoot a match with it. IDPA even has a division for your J-frames and pocket semi-autos. For this reason nearly every concealed carry setup I have ever used has gone to at least one IDPA or USPSA match and was shot for fun. Most of my CCW setups are not competitive in USPSA and only slightly more so in IDPA. But after a half dozen stages I know whether or not my CCW rig is going to work or not in the real world too.
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Thibaut
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Thank you for your comments. Other people, as well.
I've gone round and round and round and round with myself as to semi auto versus revolver. I am reasonably proficient with either and hopefully becoming more skilled each week. It is much more fun to shoot the semi.
That said, when danger knocks, your adrenalin goes to an unbelievable level and instantly. You could almost fly. I've asked myself a thousand times if I had a gun would I have shot the guy or been able mentally and/or physically to shoot him. What I learned is to be ever-vigilant of my surroundings. I took that from the experience and with that mindset, I hope that I am better prepared to anticipate trouble. It happened so quickly that I'm not sure a gun would have helped, honestly. I have to make sure I'm ready. I have and I am.
I also learned that if you carry a gun, it needs to be on your person. Not in a purse.
I've also learned that some people like revolvers and some people like semi automatics. Some people like Fords and some people like Chevrolets.
I will pocket carry my revolver in town and will carry my semi auto on the road or in the woods. As to your question re: safeties...........It is nothing to me to flip the switch on a semi. It is also nothing to me, and moreso each time I shoot, to anticipate trigger pull on the revolver.
I've also learned that some people like manual safeties and some don't.
Mainly, I have learned that guns are a personal extension of ourselves and will be an ongoing learning experience for me. I learn something from just about each post that I read here and I learn something each lesson or at the range. It is a lot to learn.
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Thibaut
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I'm sorry about your wife's health. This journey we are on is not always so easy. Take care.
Thibaut
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I see a lot and hear a lot about how light in the pocket, etc.....I don't mind the weight. Actually, I kind of like knowing it is there.
Trunk Monkey
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I've never shot anyone but I have been in a couple of violent confrontations. My experience has been that your muscle memory takes over and you default to your training. That's why so many people advocate professional training and practice.
The second or third time a tweaker attacks you you start paying attention.
I've told this story before but I used to carry TDA guns exclusively. One day during a training class I experienced a malfunction. When I attempted to clear the malfunction I accidentally engaged the safety on the gun without realizing it. I attempted to clear the malfunction three times before I figured out what was happening. I have enough experience to know that in a real world encounter it would have been all over before I figured it out. I haven't carried a gun with a safety since.
I would recommend you take some force on force training.
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I've shot IDPA with a J frame a few times. It's a hoot. Three reloads to finish a long stage. I do remember when we had some steel poppers at a distance. I knocked them down and then heard a weird sound. It was applause from the others.
Check out Claude Werner - https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/category/j-frame/ for J frame tips. I took his course. Being a scholar by trade, whenever I endeavor something, I want to research and train.
Check out Claude Werner - https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/category/j-frame/ for J frame tips. I took his course. Being a scholar by trade, whenever I endeavor something, I want to research and train.
Styx
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LOL I'm the same way... I actually like the heft, weight, and feel of steel. I too like knowing that it's there. I liken it to the feels of an old school American muscle car vs the light weight new school cars of today...
Styx
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You don't think with training, the problem you experienced with the safety would be easily solved no different than any other issue?
Trunk Monkey
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Probably not. It was an accident not a training issue. So I eliminated the safety and eliminated the potential for it ever to happened again.
See
Problem solved
Jim Rau
member
Again, you proved my point, thank you!
If you want to 'compete' in any of the above mentioned 'SPORTS' you MUST train and practice A LOT and then you will become proficient and familiar with your equipment. You are totally missing the point here, MOST PEOPLE WHO CARRY FOR SD DO NOT TRAIN OR PRACTICE ENOUGH, and certainly do not take up the 'sports' you are discussing here ! And I have been in harms way my entire adult life (50+ years) and you will fire more rounds at 'targets' in just ONE course of fire, not the entire match, in the 'simulated' SPORT matches you describe than I have in a life time, and an 'average' person, even in LE, would in a ten LIFE TIMES!!! And you said a revolver is 'slightly simpler' than a SA, the learning curve is 4 to 5 times greater with a SA, slightly more than slightly I think!!!!! I would have to totally disagree with you when you talk about civilian SD. If you want to compete in one of your 'sports' or you are going to use the Firearm as a 'professional' (LE or Military) I would completely agree that the SA has an edge on the revolver, BUT IN CIVILIAN SD, no way, not even close!!! Just common sense and reality! Nuff said, have a nice day.
mcb
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I guess we just have to disagree. I don't care if you have only an hour to train or weeks. For a given amount of time spent training/practicing most shooters will advance faster and be more proficient training with a semi auto than a revolver.Again, you proved my point, thank you!
Might make that the equivalent of a flip phone. Just a side comment on safeties on semiautos. One needs to practice a clean removal of the safety on the draw. Since I shoot 1911s at times, I've practiced that dry - many times. However, something that I've noticed and others have. If the situation or scenario is not a standard draw, folks are more likely to forget the safety. Picking up the gun, having to draw from a not standing position, etc. - that increases somewhat (not all the time), forgetting the safety. Using your other hand - same thing. Good idea to have ambi safeties. Same thing as been found with RDS. You practice your draw, such that you can find the dot. Switch from the standard draw or position, where's the dot?
mcb
Member
I think this is the reason many guys running 1911's/2011's and similar manual safety handguns have adopted the ride the safety grip. This grip, once habitual, ensures the manual safety is always disengaged as part of gripping the gun making it significantly less likely to be forgotten or accidently reengaged.
Labguy47
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I’m beginning to think you might wish to rethink about this. There are several guns that even though aren’t ideal, beat getting abducted. And would avail you to carry more. NAA mini revolver, 5 shots of .22 Mag is no slouch. Ruger LCP 2, I have worn this in a fobus holster with scrubs and never had an issue. It’s like the condum metaphor it’s better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
How quickly can you draw and put three to five shots into the chest area of a running assailant?
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