New Rifle, Which cartridge do you suggest?

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StrawHat

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I am contemplating building another bolt action. It will be a lightweight, walking around rifle. I have narrowed the choice of cartridge to 300 Black Out and 300 HAM’R. I will not be using a suppressor.

I am planning a 25” barrel.

What are your recommendations?

Thanks.

Kevin
 
Either would be fine, but for a light walking around rifle, 25" barrel makes it a bit slow and unwieldy, IMHO. I have a few walking around rifles, none with more than a 20" barrel. It makes for much faster shouldering and sight aquisition, at least for me.
 
Blackout components will be cheaper, more varied, and easier to find, and I don't see that much performance gain to go with the premium of HAM'R, for a general purpose rifle. Just my $0.02.
 
I am a student of old cartridges. Big fat things like the 50-70 and the 405 WCF. I am familiar with the 30-06. Any cartridge newer than 1906 is not well known to me. It took me a while to figure the Black out and the HAM’R. Realistically, components to reload 50 cartridges should get me sighted in. Those same 50, reloaded, should last me the rest of my life. This will not be used to punch hole after hole in paper. I ended competition years ago so I could enjoy shooting again.

I plan to build using either the CZ 527 or the Savage 25 for the action unless I can find a mini Mauser.

While a shorter barrel would contribute to light weight, I will try to save weight in the wood and action so I can have a longish barrel.

I will use this on varmints up to coyote.

Kevin
 
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Both work with .223 brass if you're a handloader, the HAM'R gets better velocity with lighter bullets.

If you're a handloader, I'd go HAM'R. If not, there's decent 300BLK ammo available for a reasonable price and I'd go that way if you buy off the shelf ammo.
 
The BO is better supported in the current market so for me it’s a really easy decision... hamr. But in a bolt rifle with this configuration, I would be looking at 350 legend as well.
 
Those same 50, reloaded, should last me the rest of my life.

In that case, go with the Ham’r. Either will be fun and just as useful as the other. But it seems you like this one.
Go for it. You won’t be using big slow bullets quietly for coyotes, so use the little extra horsepower. Enjoy!:)

(And tell us how you like it.)
 
I am a student of old cartridges. Big fat things like the 50-70 and the 405 WCF. I am familiar with the 30-06. Any cartridge newer than 1906 is not well known to me. It took me a while to figure the Black out and the HAM’R. Realistically, components to reload 50 cartridges should get me sighted in. Those same 50, reloaded, should last me the rest of my life. This will not be used to punch hole after hole in paper. I ended competition years ago so I could enjoy shooting again.

I plan to build using either the CZ 527 or the Savage 25 for the action unless I can find a mini Mauser.

While a shorter barrel would contribute to light weight, I will try to save weight in the wood and action so I can have a longish barrel.

I will use this on varmints up to coyote.

Kevin

Ever heard of the 6.5x55? ;)
 
While a shorter barrel would contribute to light weight, I will try to save weight in the wood and action so I can have a longish barrel.

One thing to consider is that with these small cased 30 cal cartridges is that they're very efficient in short barrels. You probably won't get much if any extra velocity by going over about 22" of pipe.

For a walk around rifle, I'd keep it to 20" or less personally.
 
Not much sense in a 25” for either the Ham’r or Blackout. I’m not sure I could be convinced, even as interested in the out-of-the-ordinary as I am, to waste money having a 25” barrel made for one.

No sense in a Ham’r for me. The Blackout has never thrilled me, even back when JD was calling it the Whisper. For a walking varminter, I’d have no interest in either, but especially not in the less supported Ham’r. You might not worry much yourself about ammunition or component supply, or might not be bothered by making brass, but someone else will have these concerns when you pass the rifle on.

Personally, my walking coyote rifles are AR’s in 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC, always with a companion 5.56 upper on hand. 18-20” barrels, .750” gas blocks, free floating hand guards, and great triggers. In a bolt rifle, a CZ mini action in 6.5 Grendel would be THE rifle I want.

The rifle you’ve envisioned sounds unique, but it doesn’t sound logical. Long and heavy for the application, with a relatively poor trajectory for the job, and too long of barrel for the case capacity.
 
I'll 2nd the shorter barrel. Caliber wise, I probably would go with the 300 BO. If you like older cartridges consider things like a 25-20 or 32-20.
 
IMHO: It sounds like you have first selected the caliber and then selected a 25" bbl to maximize performance.

I only say this because you don't see many (any ?) "lightweight, walking around rifle"s in 25" bbls.

I myself would first select the package, bolt action which you have selected, weight, action, bbl length, etc. to fit my needs and then select the caliber last.

It's not like they're going to run out of calibers :what:
 
Any barrel length over 18"-20" is wasted on those cartridges. Even 16" wouldn't be a handicap. Are you restricted to straight wall cartridges? If not 6.5 Grendel. If yes then 350 Legend.
 
In my experience, 22 inches is the most common walking around rifle length. My caliber choice would be .243. Very effective caliber, including at moderately long range, and ammo is widely available.
 
Any barrel length over 18"-20" is wasted on those cartridges. Even 16" wouldn't be a handicap. Are you restricted to straight wall cartridges? If not 6.5 Grendel. If yes then 350 Legend.

Not restricted to straight walls. I have long wanted to build a bolt action rifle chambered for the 30 Carbine and may yet. I have a thought it would be a decent little cast bullet shooter. But, I have access to 5, five gallon pails of 223 brass, mostly LC. So, I started looking at what could be done with it. I remember seeing articles about 24, 25, 26, and 28 caliber wildcats on the 223 but prefer something bigger. I chose 30 only because of the variety of bullets and molds available. (Self imposed limit of 150(?) grains). I had considered 32 and 35 but nothing struck me. For the last +/- month I had searched for 30 wildcats and narrowed it to those two. As I mentioned, a lightweight bolt action for walking in the woods and fields.

I had not considered the barrel being to long for the cartridge. I figured proper choice of powder would help with that. Maybe not.

Lightweight meaning under 6 pounds, total. Not many think it possible but if you select proper components, it can be done. That is why the mini action instead of a M70 or 700 size. Same with wood. While fancy wood is pretty, it is also denser and therefore heavier. Straight grained lumber is lighter and stronger. And using less of it is also wise. Since I don’t plan on shooting over 200 yards, open sights will be more than sufficient.

Also, this is not going to be a target rifle. Two, maybe three shots will be the longest string fired, once it is sighted in.

To make it even lighter, I could go with a single shot action. English Rook and Rabbit rifles are known for their lack of weight and accuracy. I would prefer a magazine fed, bolt action.

Maybe this dream will never come to fruition. Or maybe it will only have a 22” barrel but it will get thought out.

Kevin
 
I like the 277 wolverine if you want something weird based on the 223 case, and the Grendel in a 20-22" barrel if you want something more mainstream.
 
Of the two you listed, 300 BLK.

Lots of neat new supersonic rounds and will be easier to reload since I assume you reload because you are building a bolt gun.

But I also agree with those saying that barrel will be too long
 
Be careful with your speculative math on total rifle weight. The CZ mini action is only 1 ounce lighter than a Rem 700 short action. The Howa is supposedly 3 ounces lighter. Mag choices obviously play into this discussion - but a blind 700 could conceivably be built lighter than the DBM CZ, as light, or maybe lighter than the Howa. That’s even before lightening mill work is done to the 700, or any consideration of Titanium clones. Personally, for 1-4 ounces of action weight, let alone break even weight, I would much rather have a 700, the bolt action rifle with an infinite aftermarket, instead of the two rather obscure and poorly supported mini actions. Bolt fluting, skeletonized bolt handle and knob, and some lightening mill cuts on the 700 action could bring it right in line for weight with these mini’s.

Your statement lumping the 700 and 70 together in one breath is foolish, as there’s 3/4 pound more steel in the 70 than the 700 - a full pound in the long actions. Ruger 77’s, Win 70’s, and Savages are fat - the 700’s, not so much.

Single shot bolt actions are often heavier than an equivalent blind mag action, as the light sheet metal mag box of an ADL is replaced by a thick steel belly of the action. Be careful with this math as well.

I could be convinced of some modest utility at short ranges to be garnered from a 16” 300 Blackout bolt rifle. Just dumb to build it as a 25” rifle, considerably silly even above 20”.

Getting under 6lbs takes work, and is rarely reached with even a light sporter contour barrel of 20”, let alone accomplishing it with a 25” tube. most polymer stocks will be 1.5-2.25lbs, add a quarter pound for proper bedding and forend reinforcement (add 1.5lbs if you’re lazy and stiffen the forend by filling with epoxy). Wood or composite a half to full pound more. Bare actions are 25-32oz at the light end. Even blind mags or aluminum floorplates can add a quarter pound or more, plus a few ounces for the lockwork. A 24” sporter barrel will typically run 2.5lbs in itself. Cutting down to 20” would cut off almost half a pound for you, 3/4 pound for cutting down to 16”, which is still more than you need to get the best in-field performance out of 300blackout. Even if you figure 2lbs for a 20” sporter, 2lbs for the action and bottom metal, and 2lbs for the stock, you’re already at 6lbs. It’s not magic, it’s pretty simple math, really. You could get under 6lbs with a 25” barrel if you milled an action to be a true 1.5lbs, but I’d only do so if the cartridge really needed 25” to perform - which your 30 cal 5.56 variants do not.

The Rem Model 7 action is a half inch shorter, and commensurately lighter than the 700 action - I’d expect it’d give the Howa a run for its money on total weight, if not be lighter, and it remains to be considerably more supported in aftermarket parts than the Howa.
 
I have a couple "walk around" rifles, including a Model 7 in .223. You want to use .223 brass, but want something bigger than .223 caliber. I looked at the 300 BLK for a long time and decided it only made sense if suppressed. Were I you, I'd look at the 6x45 (6mm-223 Remington). There are plenty of .243 caliber bullets out there, and they will be driven faster by the limited case capacity of the .223 than any .30 caliber bullet. I'll bet a Model 7 with a fast-twist 22-inch barrel in 6x45 would make a dandy package.
 
Be careful with your speculative math on total rifle weight. The CZ mini action is only 1 ounce lighter than a Rem 700 short action. The Howa is supposedly 3 ounces lighter. Mag choices obviously play into this discussion - but a blind 700 could conceivably be built lighter than the DBM CZ, as light, or maybe lighter than the Howa. That’s even before lightening mill work is done to the 700, or any consideration of Titanium clones. Personally, for 1-4 ounces of action weight, let alone break even weight, I would much rather have a 700, the bolt action rifle with an infinite aftermarket, instead of the two rather obscure and poorly supported mini actions. Bolt fluting, skeletonized bolt handle and knob, and some lightening mill cuts on the 700 action could bring it right in line for weight with these mini’s.

Your statement lumping the 700 and 70 together in one breath is foolish, as there’s 3/4 pound more steel in the 70 than the 700 - a full pound in the long actions. Ruger 77’s, Win 70’s, and Savages are fat - the 700’s, not so much.

Single shot bolt actions are often heavier than an equivalent blind mag action, as the light sheet metal mag box of an ADL is replaced by a thick steel belly of the action. Be careful with this math as well.

I could be convinced of some modest utility at short ranges to be garnered from a 16” 300 Blackout bolt rifle. Just dumb to build it as a 25” rifle, considerably silly even above 20”.

Getting under 6lbs takes work, and is rarely reached with even a light sporter contour barrel of 20”, let alone accomplishing it with a 25” tube. most polymer stocks will be 1.5-2.25lbs, add a quarter pound for proper bedding and forend reinforcement (add 1.5lbs if you’re lazy and stiffen the forend by filling with epoxy). Wood or composite a half to full pound more. Bare actions are 25-32oz at the light end. Even blind mags or aluminum floorplates can add a quarter pound or more, plus a few ounces for the lockwork. A 24” sporter barrel will typically run 2.5lbs in itself. Cutting down to 20” would cut off almost half a pound for you, 3/4 pound for cutting down to 16”, which is still more than you need to get the best in-field performance out of 300blackout. Even if you figure 2lbs for a 20” sporter, 2lbs for the action and bottom metal, and 2lbs for the stock, you’re already at 6lbs. It’s not magic, it’s pretty simple math, really. You could get under 6lbs with a 25” barrel if you milled an action to be a true 1.5lbs, but I’d only do so if the cartridge really needed 25” to perform - which your 30 cal 5.56 variants do not.

The Rem Model 7 action is a half inch shorter, and commensurately lighter than the 700 action - I’d expect it’d give the Howa a run for its money on total weight, if not be lighter, and it remains to be considerably more supported in aftermarket parts than the Howa.

Thank you, some of that is news to me.

I was considering the smaller actions so the barrel could start at a smaller diameter.
My old 722 was a decent rifle but a tad heavy as built up by a cousin.

I find that most American rifles are built a bit heavy for the given cartridge. Typical of the one size fits all line of thought.

I will dwell on what you suggest and take it under consideration.

Kevin
 
Same same - easy math. 2” comparison of a 1.20” diameter 700 barrel to a 1.05” Howa barrel is 2 1/2 ounces of steel. Equivalent to 2” of barrel length, or a little less weight than could be removed by fluting a sporter barrel. And of course, those 2 1/2 ounces are centered where they should be, not where they should not.

Or the same 2-3oz lighter the Model 7 is than the 700.

What you’re also neglecting, is balance. Concerning yourself with 2 1/2 ounces of shank weight while throwing an excess 9” out at the muzzle, 3/4lb, will make the rifle exceptionally misbalanced. A lightweight rifle which balances like a sledgehammer isn’t handy, despite its weight.

Also, be sure to discuss with your gunsmith the metric, uncommon 22x1mm tenon thread of the Howa. Any Smith in the country will be set up to thread a 1 1/6”-16 Rem 700 thread, but the Howas are less common.

If the math all works out for your preference and the mini actions add up, great. But be sure you aren’t yielding to blind assumptions in your calculus. Identify potential components, get specific weights, and add it up. Compare against real weights for alternatives.
 
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