Public range rules

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taliv

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given a public range that hosts 3gun matches, with numerous 3gun bays that have 12’ berms on 3 sides, 20-50 yards deep....

Is there a reasonable justification for either of the following rules on non-match days?

- no drawing from holster
- no more than 1 shot per second

Does anyone have range insurance that stipulates these rules? ( I had NRA range and club insurance a few years ago and neither did.)
 
Drawing from the holster wouldn't bother me. A couple of shooters firing hundreds rounds as fast as they can pull the trigger would annoy the heck out of me. Not saying that it's wrong but it just would take away from my enjoyment at the range.
 
During those matches there are RSOs and you can bet 99% of the entrants know about controlling their gun and know about safety. On a non-match day and some Joe who just bought the gun shows up - who's watching him? Does he know about ricochets if he shoots too close and the bullet goes over the berm?

My local club has a LOT of solo ranges with berms in between, high berms at the the end with added wood above and they still have to post signs where the minimum target distance is to prevent ricochets over the 2 story berms from 15 yards. With other bays on the other side, I guess between their lawyers and most folks' lack of common sense it was the prudent thing to do.
 
given a public range that hosts 3gun matches, with numerous 3gun bays that have 12’ berms on 3 sides, 20-50 yards deep....

Is there a reasonable justification for either of the following rules on non-match days?

- no drawing from holster
- no more than 1 shot per second
Does anyone have range insurance that stipulates these rules? ( I had NRA range and club insurance a few years ago and neither did.)

Other than their range, their rules, I don't think there is any real need for any other justification. When it comes to public ranges, I think the premise to keep things as simple as possible and to always assume the worst case scenarios. Being a public range, would they even have to carry range insurance? Wouldn't they be covered under a blanket state/county/municipality policy?
 
Does anyone have range insurance that stipulates these rules?
Ours does not. Only rules are to make sure shots hit the berm and not hitting into the ground in between you and the berm, No shooting before and after daylight (Neighbors). Oh, and no shooting the props. Idiots do anyway.
 
I don’t see any reason for a range to host 3 gun or other similar events but not allow people to practice for the competitions.

I generally avoid ranges that don’t let me practice. I don’t want to spend match fees or spend a whole day at the range just to get some practice moving while shooting. It would take a LONG time to really improve if the only time you could practice the difficult stuff was at actual matches.

I used to frequent an indoor range that had similar rules, but once the range staff got to know me and saw that I was a safe shooter, they didn’t care about drawing or fast strings of fire.

That said, I have another range near me that has a similar setup with both of those rules, plus you have to stand in a box while shooting AND you have to have a RO standing with you.

The more I think about it, the more I want my own range where I can practice whatever I want and not have to worry about someone else’s rules.


Being a public range, would they even have to carry range insurance? Wouldn't they be covered under a blanket state/county/municipality policy?

I think Taliv is talking about ranges that are open to non members, rather than government owned ranges.
 
I belonged to a range that required members wishing to shoot from the holster to be safety checked prior to doing so. RSO would watch you draw, dry fire and re-holster a minimum of five times on two separate days. With no muzzle or trigger violations, you were allowed to work from the holster.

Rate of fire is only an issue if the shooter is spraying all over and the impact area is becoming unsafe. That's the RO's job to call them out.
 
Our range does not allow drawing from a holster during public shooting. During matches, it's allowed. The match guys are very serious about safety, and have a lot of practice.
 
Their place, their rules.
Probably heavily linked to the overhead of needing additional RO to monitor people when it's General Admission.
And the General Public is probably the generally largest risk--all to easy to imagine your skills are better than they really are (Dunn-Kruger is cruel that way).

Now, a person might think that a joint that had gone to the trouble to build several 3-gun bays would go to the effort to have closed or semi-closed days for people wanting to develop those skills before going on the clock.
 
Now, a person might think that a joint that had gone to the trouble to build several 3-gun bays would go to the effort to have closed or semi-closed days for people wanting to develop those skills before going on the clock.
Agreed.
 
Our modern indoor range, allows drawing if you have first performed in front of one of the staff. That is reasonable. Double taps are fine but long pray and spray strings are not, due to the lack of control that some show.

I went to that range soon after it opened to wring out some quirks in my grip. The SO showed me the new gadget to control the targets. Very nice. However, I looked up and saw the holes right above the station. I commented and he sighed, saying it was like that a month after opening. Then he pointed down the lanes which are separated by some bullet proof 'glass'. On one lane the separator had a big star pattern from a hit. OMG!

Matches are heavily supervised but I can tell you scary stories. I had a guy told to load and make ready. I was an officer. Said genius takes his 1911, doesn't put on the safety, holsters it with his finger and puts around about a foot away from us (the two officers). Then he starts to wave his gun, saying - Wha Happened? Then the other SO, a sheriff grabbed the moron.
 

For sure which is why I posed the question.
I wonder if any studies have been done or similar quasi academic work by the community on safety. I know a few people who have shot themselves holstering and unholstering and witnessed one incident. But is it really statistically more dangerous? Idk.

Same with rapid fire.

I’ve really only heard anecdotes and horror stories. Never hear about the millions of rounds that go downrange safely.

While there are certainly a lot of ranges that forbid these, there are also lots of ranges that allow it. The indoor range near me doesn’t allow either, yet still has ceiling and carpet shot up.

Is there a fact based approach to saying it is or isn’t safe?


To me it feels like the antis in one state claiming there will be blood in the streets if they pass concealed carry, ignoring the fact that a bunch of other states passed it without turning into the Wild West.
 
Do you have a cliff notes for that gem? I mean if you’ve read it does it say it is or is not?
 
It goes over how incorrect trigger pulls occur and the pressures that can occur from various kinds of maneuvers. I don't remember if it had figures on how many occur on holstering, but did discuss how finger on the trigger is easily activated. I might look it up but my copy is packed away for the moment.

Here's a reference that is suggestive but I can't get it now:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1518/001872006778606813

Check out the abstract.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003687017302715?via=ihub

I do have the ability to get these but my life is too complex to do the requests. Sorry.

I'd bet that anything that can lead to a finger on the trigger is a risk. The rates might be out there. I know a few Serpa holster shots into the leg. That's a common one.
 
The few outdoor ranges that I know of around here dont allow drawing.

There are indoor ranges that do, once you've completed their $150+ "drawing from the holster" class.


Sooo glad I can shoot at home. Only time I go to any public range now is for a match.
 
Is there a reasonable justification for either of the following rules on non-match days?

- no drawing from holster
- no more than 1 shot per second
Yup.
1. Very simple enforcement. No need to make any sort of judgement call about the shooter's ability or safety. No arguments about who's safe and skilled and who isn't.
2. When people shoot faster, they shoot less accurately. For some that means group sizes open up a little. For some it means they start shooting into the ground or over the berm.
3. Drawing/holstering breaks the "All muzzles downrange all the time" rule that most public ranges have.
 
Our club has held matches at several ranges over the years that had similar rules that we didn’t have to follow, while competing. Our club also has their own insurance, “certified” SO’s, RO’s that follow the shooter around in close proximity, gives new shooters briefings, folks that don’t play safe go home and there are lots of eyes on anyone shooting. The shooter is also always “down range” of everyone else in the bay. Required equipment, no shoulder holsters, no cross draw, no SOB, no pocket draw, etc.
 
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A couple of unmonitored ranges where I can shoot as I will. They are sparsely attended, most weekdays it is like shooting in the south 40.
I go by NRA, USPSA, SCSA, or IDPA safety procedures depending on what I am working on at the time.

The indoor range is close and air conditioned.
I kind of conditioned them to rapid fire. A few double taps and the staffer took a look. They were all on target, so he got used to it. Then three shot failure drills. Longer strings at PPC rate go unremarked.
I start at low ready or off the bench top, no need to train them to the draw.
 
With the number of people I see at the range who can't handle basic functions with their gun (or handle them safely when they do), I'm very thankful drawing from the holster isn't generally allowed. That would be justification enough as far as I'm concerned.

Anyone shooting in matches is likely to be far beyond the casual shooter in terms of safety, skill and experience. This of course doesn't mean accidents don't happen with those guys either. At my local indoor range things have apparently gotten bad enough for the range to offer carriers and plates to the active RSO.

If I'm noticing all kinds of safety issues I know range owner/operators see 10 times more. As John mentioned above, by keeping things as simple as possible it makes it easier to monitor the line.

I have been pushing towards building my own, private, range for many years, mostly due to what I have mentioned above. I am finally reaching a point where that is becoming a reality. That reduces the lowest level of training/experience to me and my partners.
 
Just ask the RO when you are there, can't imagine they would not know as they are the one to watch and enforce the rules. May also be possible, if they know you want to practice something specific, they may give you an exception on the fly or let you know when/how you can practice those things.
 
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It would be nice if common sense prevailed and rules were not needed, but we all know how that works. Those rules are to encourage mall ninjas and gang bangers to go elsewhere, but legitimate competition shooters are caught in the same web. Maybe best to check with RSO to see if comp credentials can be a basis for waiver, as they clearly are during competition. Might relegate you to the far reaches of the firing line, but at least should provide some opportunity to tune up.
 
There are no ranges near me that allow rapid fire or holster draw. Not even the sportsman club i belonged to for years allowed it during regular hours. If there was no one but the RO on the range it was a different story if they knew you. They wanted 3 seconds between shots normally.
 
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