Complete Situational Unawareness

Kleanbore · Oct 20, 2019

George P said:
Maybe where you live. I do not have those issues where I live; guess that's why my comments are as such.

Is it the case that crimes never occur during the daylight where you live, or is it that you are not aware of any? Is it the case that criminals do not drive automobiles to better areas where you live, or is it that you are unaware of it.

If your assertion is correct, can you suggest why that wonderful state may endure?

George P said:
As to the previous mention of paranoia, I see a LOT of it ... and on and on. These folks are real, as is their paranoia.

Again, do you have any understanding of the term whatsoever?

Do you have any understanding of basis risk management?

George P said:
I refuse to live what's left of my life in that state of stress. If you choose to do so, that is your choice and you're welcome to make that choice.

I live with very little stress. One need not feel stressed at all to prudently exercise reasonable situational awareness.

Of course, naivete or oblivion may induce a false feeling of security.

One other thing: if one's firearm is on a different floor where accessing timely it in the event of a sudden break-in would be impossible, as was the case with me for years, there is a greater reason to feel stressed than if one is wearing it.

To expect hat a break-in, however unlikely its occurence may be, can be expected to occur only when one happens to be in the place where the gun is kept would be extremely naive.

And if one wears it at home, one does not have to do anything with it every time one leaves the house or comes home. Try it.

I have more than one fire extinguisher on each floor. Would you attribute that to "paranoia"?

How about keeping the doors locked?

Wearing seat-belts?

George P · Oct 20, 2019

We are not going to agree, and I am not going to get into an argument with a Moderator, so have at it; I'm out of this one. You believe what you want, and I will do the same. And yes I DO understand paranoia and risk assessment and risk management - it was one of my job responsibilities.

Kleanbore · Oct 20, 2019

George P said:
And yes I DO understand paranoia and risk assessment and risk management - it was one of my job responsibilities.

One would never conclude that from your posts.

By the way, I co-authored the risk management procedures and processes for a major corporation.

I used to camp with a number of senior LEOs, and their opinions on the false promise of "safe neighborhoods" (based on real 911 calls), along with police reports, are the sources of mine.

Do you have anything substantive to offer about the sheriff I mentioned in the OP?

About the suggestions I listed in it?

How did that post lead to your suggestion about ordering on-line?

If you get a chance, watch some episodes of The Best Defense. The scenarios are based on real incidents. And most of them take places in good areas. One can really learn from them.

Without inducing any stress at all.

JeeperCreeper · Oct 20, 2019

Kleanbore said:
What is it that you are trying to ask?

Asking nothing, stating that I think you have unnecessary expectations of others, proposing that they be on edge at all times like you seem to be.

Basically, your story can be condensed to "a lady fell near a guy with subpar people skills".

There's a time and place for paranoia, but just remember stress is more likely to kill you than a bad guy.

Old Dog · Oct 20, 2019

So maintaining situational awareness equates to "be(ing) on edge at all times?" Or equals paranoia? And causes stress?

It'd be helpful if some folks would have an actual region/area with their screen-name/avatar (don't need your actual town, city or county) so the rest of us know where these utopias are, where there are no "issues" and no need to actually pay attention when one is out and about.

I once interviewed a felon, noting that he frequently committed his crimes (primary burglaries, but with the occasional home invasion thrown in) in areas where the residents felt they were "safe" and there were "no issues" they had to worry about. When I asked him why he did so much of his business in one such particularly nice area, he responded that it was because the residents there were not only not alert (unlocked doors, windows, didn't pay attention) but also that was where people who "had all the nice stuff" lived.

Personally, I don't believe there are any places left where "issues" cannot crop up and living with a modicum of awareness is not required.

Trunk Monkey · Oct 20, 2019

George P said:
We are not going to agree, and I am not going to get into an argument with a Moderator, so have at it; I'm out of this one. You believe what you want, and I will do the same. And yes I DO understand paranoia and risk assessment and risk management - it was one of my job responsibilities.

I'm not a Moderator. I'm also sitting on my couch in sweats with a Glock 26 (holstered) sitting on the coffee table in front of me and a trained attack cat (if you happen to be a catnip mouse) sitting on my lap. You can talk about paranoia and carrying a gun at home all you want and every time you do I'm going to remind you that you really can walk out your front door and right into an attempted robbery. Do you know why it was an attempted robbery? Because I (paranoid bastard that I am) never walk out my front door unarmed. Do you know why never walk out my front door unarmed? Because I put my gun on as soon as I'm dressed.

JeeperCreeper · Oct 20, 2019

Old Dog said:
So maintaining situational awareness equates to "be(ing) on edge at all times?" Or equals paranoia? And causes stress?

It'd be helpful if some folks would have an actual region/area with their screen-name/avatar (don't need your actual town, city or county) so the rest of us know where these utopias are, where there are no "issues" and no need to actually pay attention when one is out and about.

I once interviewed a felon, noting that he frequently committed his crimes (primary burglaries, but with the occasional home invasion thrown in) in areas where the residents felt they were "safe" and there were "no issues" they had to worry about. When I asked him why he did so much of his business in one such particularly nice area, he responded that it was because the residents there were not only not alert (unlocked doors, windows, didn't pay attention) but also that was where people who "had all the nice stuff" lived.

Personally, I don't believe there are any places left where "issues" cannot crop up and living with a modicum of awareness is not required.

I'm not saying I live in Utopia nor to be reckless.

My challenge to this thread is not the "lessons or take away" but the package it was wrapped in.

I think OP's story is not a viable example to use to be as a lesson.

Granted, everyone has outgoing and incoming bias. My bias shows in how I type things, even if I try not to. I also interpret other's writings with my own bias while assuming their bias.

So yes, I'm making assumptions.

I am assuming that OP was bothered enough by the lady's fall to post about it. The way he was describing the officer also allows me to assume that he was annoyed with him. The way he framed the whole interaction, I felt, was unreasonable.

The fact that he has 2 mini paragraphs describing how a cop was on the phone, allows me to assume that he thinks all cops should be on alert at all times. "He barely noticed me"... Well, I hope not....I guess you weren't being weird. I respect Law Enforcement, but we have an issue in America with too many cops being too quick to think everyone is a criminal, but that's another rant of my own.

So my bias assumes that OP was flustered and stressed and expects others to do the same... Because it carried over to this thread.

The fact that most everyone on this forum probably agrees and lives in a similar area of the "spectrum of risk management", but still there was push back on this thread, probably shows that there is disconnect between his story and his lesson.

I would also venture to say there would he more opinions on it if OP were not a moderator.

Kleanbore · Oct 20, 2019

JeeperCreeper said:
proposing that they be on edge at all times like you seem to be.

...I am only "on edge" when something puts me on edge.

JeeperCreeper said:
Basically, your story can be condensed to "a lady fell near a guy with subpar people skills".

You obviously missed the entire point. The condensed version would be "a person was completely oblivious to his surroundings; he was a law enforcement officer, displaying his firearm for the taking".

I said nothing about his people skills.

JeeperCreeper said:
There's a time and place for paranoia,...

I cannot think of one at the moment.

shafter · Oct 20, 2019

Without getting drawn into the paranoia argument going on here, I think that the OP's story isn't a very good example of poor situational awareness. What should the deputy have done differently? He was likely doing his job and handling a complaint. Yes, anything can happen at any time, but it's broad daylight, in an area that's not particularly dangerous, with a second officer on scene. People were walking close to him and an old lady fell without his knowledge.

There was probably nothing about the OP's demeanor (or anyone else in the vicinity) that caused any reason for alarm from either deputy. The fact that he didn't blade himself and hang up the phone every time someone walked by doesn't really mean a whole lot.

Again, is there something we can take from this story and say the deputy should have realistically done differently?

Kleanbore · Oct 20, 2019

JeeperCreeper said:
I think OP's story is not a viable example to use to be as a lesson.

Why not? The officer did just about everything wrong hat he could have.

JeeperCreeper said:
The fact that he has 2 mini paragraphs describing how a cop was on the phone, allows me to assume that he thinks all cops should be on alert at all times.

On the phone, and doing a number of other very imprudent things.

And yes, I do believe that every LEO should be alert to his or her surroundings at all times. Don't you?

JeeperCreeper said:
I am assuming that OP was bothered enough by the lady's fall to post about it.

Bad assumption. I would never have posted about it, had the officer's failure to notice it pertained to the subject at hand,

JeeperCreeper said:
So my bias assumes that OP was flustered and stressed...

Another bad assumption.

JeeperCreeper said:
... and expects others to do the same...

To do what?

We often discuss the subject of situational awareness in this forum. My earlier post had been discussed at length and reflected very good input.

The recent incident illustrated just about the worst failure of situational awareness that have ever seen, by someone who most certainly should have known better.

Kleanbore · Oct 20, 2019

shafter said:
What should the deputy have done differently?

Just about everything, I'm afraid.

shafter said:
Again, is there something we can take from this story and say the deputy should have realistically done differently?

There is a list in the OP.

Trunk Monkey · Oct 20, 2019

shafter said:
Without getting drawn into the paranoia argument going on here, I think that the OP's story isn't a very good example of poor situational awareness. What should the deputy have done differently? He was likely doing his job and handling a complaint.

I think the OP stated that the cops were from another jurisdiction they likely weren't handling a complaint.

shafter said:
I think that the OP's story isn't a very good example of poor situational awareness. What should the deputy have done differently?

My cellphone never comes out of my pocket in public especially not when I'm at work.

shafter said:
Yes, anything can happen at any time, but it's broad daylight, in an area that's not particularly dangerous, with a second officer on scene. People were walking close to him and an old lady fell without his knowledge.

I've had people try to take my gun in broad daylight, in areas that weren't particularly dangerous,until they were. You don't get close to me while I'm openly carrying a firearm without my taking notice. That's a 101 level rule.

shafter said:
There was probably nothing about the OP's demeanor (or anyone else in the vicinity) that caused any reason for alarm from either deputy. The fact that he didn't blade himself and hang up the phone every time someone walked by doesn't really mean a whole lot.

I had a guy approach me at work one night to ask for directions. Nothing in his demeanor indicated any cause for alarm until he attacked me. Again, You don't get close to me while I'm openly carrying a firearm without my taking notice.

JeeperCreeper said:
The fact that he has 2 mini paragraphs describing how a cop was on the phone, allows me to assume that he thinks all cops should be on alert at all times.

You're aware that ambushing cops is a thing now right?

I'm not a cop but I do wear a cop like uniform and carry a gun. I think like a target from the time I leave home until I return from my shift. It's saved my ass a time or two.

Kleanbore · Oct 20, 2019

Trunk Monkey said:
think the OP stated that the cops were from another jurisdiction they likely weren't handling a complaint.

I did.

Doesn't matter. A person on a cell-phone can be a very inviting target.

When using the telephone is necessary, one should be all that much more alert to one's surroundings.

JeeperCreeper · Oct 20, 2019

Well.... I don't see my mind changing nor anyone else's mind changing (especially since the thread never started as a question).

I do find much of the statements made viable, but again, it's the framing of the thread I have issue with.

So, just take my "challenges" to the status quo as an interruption to the echo chamber that we all find ourselves in...

Trunk Monkey · Oct 20, 2019

Kleanbore said:
I did.

Doesn't matter. A person on a cell-phone can be a very inviting target.

When using the telephone is necessary, one should be all that much more alert to one's surroundings.

I was responding specifically to the people who assumed the cops were on a CFS

Kleanbore · Oct 20, 2019

JeeperCreeper said:
I do find much of the statements made viable,

Good. Most of them are from The Best Defense, and based on real instances.

Some are from Massad Ayoob. A couple reflect actual car-jackings witnessed by the spouse of my physician.

All were discussed with LEOs before they were first posted.

[QUOTE="JeeperCreeper, post: 11266678, member: 222245"...]it's the framing of the thread I have issue with.[/QUOTE]Did not the officer's behavior provide an excellent list of things to not do?

TikkaShooter · Oct 20, 2019

George P said:
Maybe where you live. I do not have those issues where I live; guess that's why my comments are as such. As to the previous mention of paranoia, I see a LOT of it among gun owners; the ones who feel they have to stash guns in every room, who won't take a shower without one in arm's reach, who feel they can't live in their own home without wearing a gun, and on and on. These folks are real, as is their paranoia. I refuse to live what's left of my life in that state of stress. If you choose to do so, that is your choice and you're welcome to make that choice.

I know what you're saying. We live in the Chattahoochee NF, about 15 miles from a small town (population ~8K) in NE Georgia. So we see what you are saying
The biggest item of "stress" in our lives are the bobcats and mountain lions when our dogs have to go out after dark. Or copperheads and black tail rattlesnakes.
OTOH, as I lived near Detroit for 2 years; I can see how others feel threatened as I had the same feeling then..

Kleanbore · Oct 20, 2019

TikkaShooter said:
I can see how others feel threatened as I had the same feeling then..

Can't speak about living near Detroit.

I live in a nice neighborhood, and I do not feel "threatened" at all.

TikkaShooter · Oct 20, 2019

Kleanbore said:
Can't speak about living near Detroit.

I live in a nice neighborhood, and I do not feel "threatened" at all.

Well, you won't want to live near Detroit.

OTOH, we lived on a lake and fishing was great!

I was an automotive design engineer; so Detroit was a great $$$ place to work in the 1990s. After 2 years, I headed South again.

As mentioned earlier, we live in the Chattahoochee NF; our nearest neighbor is about .5 mile or so away. Our "neighborhood" consists of forest and 4 legged critters. No emission testing...
If we lived in the nearest town; we wouldn't feel threatened either. Here, we don't see the typical "no firearms" signs most Americans are used to seeing or I can open carry at the grocery store.

larryh1108 · Oct 20, 2019

As I was reading the OP. the point he was making was obvious. He was describing poor situational awareness and it happened to be by a LEO, who should know better. He then posted a very good reminder to all of us about what not to do when out and about.

He painted a good picture. To those who don't know what a sketchy neighborhood is, get your head out of your heine and grow up. Racist? Really? Sketchy can be any race. I've been in sketchy neighborhoods that were white, too! What is it with some people? Lotta blue kool-aide drinking going on here, it seems.

posted by hdwhit:

hdwhit said:
What you posted on this site five years ago is irrelevant to your current post (unless you have some reason to believe the officer who is the subject of your current post actually read that prior post). So, let's let that go by the wayside.

I don't know what crawled into your brain to honk you off but I used to respect what you wrote here. This unwarranted attack by you has taken away the respect you used to have, to me.
You are entitled to your opinion.
I am entitled to mine.
I have no idea why the OP was attacked so viciously by so many.
I guess the OP has picked up some enemies from being a mod. Nothing else makes sense.

Trunk Monkey · Oct 20, 2019

George P said:
The ones who feel they have to stash guns in every room, who won't take a shower without one in arm's reach

Old Dog · Oct 21, 2019

^ funny, that ... A woman of my acquaintance, some years ago, had a man (EDP, as it turned out) break into her condo (through the sliding glass patio door) in mid-afternoon ... while she was in mid-shower. She said fighting him off, while naked and wet, was not a fun experience.

She has since kept a firearm within reach when showering. Now, as then -- she lives in a nice "quiet" section of the city -- seen as having no "issues."

shafter · Oct 21, 2019

I didn't notice anything in the OP about the deputies being from another jurisdiction. Unfortunately law enforcement doesn't have the luxury of refraining from making phone calls at work, often in a much more volatile setting than the one described. Also unfortunate is the fact that these phone calls require listening closely to what the other person is saying which will without a doubt decrease overall situational awareness.

I think we're reading too much into this scenario. We don't know what type of business the deputy was handling over the phone, or even what type of holster he was using. Was it a simple friction retention holster or a quality duty holster with multiple layers of retention? Was he really oblivious to his surroundings or was he filtering people as threats/non threats and how would his actions changed had there not been a second deputy there watching his back?

Kleanbore · Oct 22, 2019

shafter said:
I didn't notice anything in the OP about the deputies being from another jurisdiction.

I said "a sheriff's department". I did not say "the " sheriff's department or "our" sheriff's department.

I chose to not identify the department.

shafter said:
Unfortunately law enforcement doesn't have the luxury of refraining from making phone calls at work, often in a much more volatile setting than the one described. Also unfortunate is the fact that these phone calls require listening closely to what the other person is saying which will without a doubt decrease overall situational awareness....We don't know what type of business the deputy was handling over the phone

It doesn't matter. He was extremely vulnerable.

shafter said:
...or even what type of holster he was using. Was it a simple friction retention holster or a quality duty holster with multiple layers of retention?

Doen;t matter. He saw exposing himself to a serious risk of being stabbed from behind or being hit over the head. The type of holster would not have mattered after that.

shafter said:
Was he really oblivious to his surroundings...

Really.

shafter said:
ow would his actions changed had there not been a second deputy there watching his back?

He had no reaon to assume that she was watcung his back.

She was waiting for him in the car...from which he should have been making his call.

Alternatively, had the call really been urgent, and it went on for so long that it did not seem so, he could have placed his back against the wall. away from the corner of the building, and kept his eyes open.

I have never seen such a blatant example of imprudent behavior on the part of an LEO.

shafter · Oct 22, 2019

Kleanbore said:
I said "a sheriff's department". I did not say "the " sheriff's department or "our" sheriff's department.

I chose to not identify the department.

Fair enough, although one usually doesn't see many marked cruisers outside of their own jurisdiction unless it's at a training venue or nearby restaurant during training.

It doesn't matter. He was extremely vulnerable.

Law enforcement is always extremely vulnerable. Unlike an armed citizen there is no option for being the gray man or avoiding problem areas.

Doen;t matter. He saw exposing himself to a serious risk of being stabbed from behind or being hit over the head. The type of holster would not have mattered after that.

You're back is always going to be turned to someone whether it's handling a complaint in a crowed bar or standing in line for lunch. You do the best you can to mitigate the threat but from what it sounds like he was in a place where old ladies shop, not Ramadi.

Really.

He had no reaon to assume that she was watcung his back.

She was waiting for him in the car...from which he should have been making his call.

If you can't trust your fellow officers to have your back then it's time to find a new department.

Alternatively, had the call really been urgent, and it went on for so long that it did not seem so, he could have placed his back against the wall. away from the corner of the building, and kept his eyes open.

I'll give you that. Back to the wall is always a good idea, but again, this seems like a fairly low threat area, backup is nearby and in sight, and the person on the other end of the line might have been quite exasperating.

I have never seen such a blatant example of imprudent behavior on the part of an LEO.

Maybe the whole thing looked worse in person. From what you've said there were some tactical things that could probably have been done different. The most obvious being standing with his back to the wall. However, nothing about this seems out of the ordinary or blatant imprudent behavior given the time of day and location.

Complete Situational Unawareness

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