Gun shop and range idiocy

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We don't have CCW "training" or "qualification" hereabouts, but I am a competitive shooter. Would a left liberal lawyer throw my IDPA Expert card in my face?
While I haven't a clue as to where you live despite forum conversation I have never seen or read about any documented instance where a shooters ability came into play. During the course of my life all the law enforcement guys I have been acquainted with (NYC, NYC Transit, Nassau County NY and Cleveland, Ohio and Cleveland suburbs, have all been trained to shoot the same way and aim the same way. I have never seen marksmanship called out in a shooting. The shooting is or is not justified in a court proceeding. Does anyone have a credible link where marksmanship skills or ammunition was actually called into question? Credible is not I heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend, who once knew someone who worked for someone who had this happen. Credible means just that, credible.

Ron
 
You can have a squib with factory or reload and I'll be the first to say it will happen more often with a reload than with factory. I've had a few in my 40 years of loading and at least in my case, it was due to being careless when loading. I used to try and load as many rounds as fast as I could on my Lee Classic Turret press and I found that the auto drum powder measure doesn't seem to drop consistently when I got in a hurry, but now that I have a Dillon 650, I can take my time and still load a bunch in a short period of time. The last squib I got was because I tried some plated bullets without knowing they ran slower than lead due to the increased friction and loading a plated wadcutter with 2.7gr of Bullseye won't push it through a 8 3/8" barrel every time. I can understand a range owner not letting reloads on their range, especially with all the liability issues today, but the reason I posted above was not so much to complain about not being able to use my reloads, but the owner's claim of how unsafe it was and he created an even more unsafe situation by letting an idiot into his range that couldn't even load his gun. I've been to several ranges that required you to watch a range safety video before shooting and the RO would usually watch any newbie to make sure he knew what he was doing.
 
While I haven't a clue as to where you live despite forum conversation I have never seen or read about any documented instance where a shooters ability came into play. During the course of my life all the law enforcement guys I have been acquainted with (NYC, NYC Transit, Nassau County NY and Cleveland, Ohio and Cleveland suburbs, have all been trained to shoot the same way and aim the same way. I have never seen marksmanship called out in a shooting. The shooting is or is not justified in a court proceeding. Does anyone have a credible link where marksmanship skills or ammunition was actually called into question? Credible is not I heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend, who once knew someone who worked for someone who had this happen. Credible means just that, credible.

Ron

The only thing that comes close is the guy thst used a G29 in a self defense shooting and the prosecution used the powerful 10mm against him
 
The outdoor range I used to go to in NE PA would have gun rentals for the tourists from Philly and NYC. They would charge like $1 or more per bullet for cheap reloads, this was about 15 or so years ago. The rental part of the range was at the far end, so the tourists had to parade back and forth behind the regular firing line.

One day a Spanish family came out after shooting and their boy and girl, both very young, ran up to my shooting table and started grabbing guns and mags. After I yelled at them not to do that the parents started a fight with me for daring to yell at their kids.

Of course the range didn't say anything to the parents since they made more money from stupid tpurists than range regulars
 
The range I mentioned doesn't allow reloads, you buy there or show new in the box commercial ammo. You are free to go elsewhere. At matches, lots of failures to run come from reloads. Saw a squib about three weeks ago - reload.

Thank the Heaven's Terrell RPC doesn't have that rule. I wouldn't be able to afford to shoot. I went through 800 rounds of .45 ACP and 200 rounds of 9mm last week. All of them reloads. My shooting buddy went through around 400-500 rounds of .45 ACP, all reloads. Of course we gauge every round and I run a RCBS Lock-Out die on both my 650s.

It's like anything else, there are those who can and do, those who could and don't, and those who shouldn't but do.
 
Few years back I was at a local indoor range. Just me and a well dressed Man in the 1st stall against the wall. So I am enjoying myself while the other guy would fire a shot, curse in intelligible language, fiddle with the gun, repeat. After awhile no more shots and then while I'm reloading, said guy comes up behind, real fast pointing a KelTec 9mm at my midsection with finger on the trigger. After not dropping him or soiling my drawers, come to find out he was a local business owner from Cameroon, been robbed half a dozen times and bought the gun for "security.". Shop sold him Pf9 and included box ammo, no charge, pointed him toward range. I gave best "half hour all inclusive" lesson I could to (turns out) decent, grateful guy. Haven't been back. Joe
 
It's like anything else, there are those who can and do, those who could and don't, and those who shouldn't but do.

Precisely. I have seen some people struggle with reloading, and others produce ammo that is more reliable than bulk-grade factory (not to mention more accurate).

Like gun use/ownership itself, it's not for everyone.
 
The only thing that comes close is the guy thst used a G29 in a self defense shooting and the prosecution used the powerful 10mm against him

That was Harold Fish in Arizona and although that was used against him, the real problem with that case was that the judge would not allow the victim's prior history of violent behavior into evidence.

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=4266

This is, though, the reason Mas Ayoob advises people to not use reloads in EDC. Fish didn't use reloads, but it wouldn't take much for a prosecutor to try and make out like you were a viscous killer who went out of his way to load extra-heavy duty killer loads. So, even though no one's ever seen marksmanship ability used against an LEO or a civilian it doesn't mean it won't be at some point in the future.
 
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While it is a diversion, there have been cases where competition and training have been brought up at trial to defame the shooter. Similarly, ammo types, stupid decorations have been mentioned. We've gone over this quite a bit. We have some stickys on such to look for, so let's not replay that old debate. You can expect a lawyer to discover whatever and use it.

If it you don't think it occurs, I suggest serious research. Let's not take this thread in that direction. Doubters - go look it up.
 
You can have a squib with factory or reload and I'll be the first to say it will happen more often with a reload than with factory. I've had a few in my 40 years of loading and at least in my case, it was due to being careless when loading.
Am I the first to say that in my experience, it will happen more often with a factory load? I've had many squibs, mostly factory .22s, but a few centerfires, also. I've never had one from my own reloads, through thousands of rounds. Guess it depends on how much you pay attention, and I've never wanted to simply see how many I could punch out in an hour. I always stopped and weighed every tenth round, as well. Some of the experimental light practice loads could loosely be considered squibs, since they wouldn't cycle properly, but that was a matter of recoil spring changes, as they always exited, and nothing else. Always had 4 different weights of spring for my pin gun.
 
I belong to a private rifle/pistol club,,,
All members goes through a mandatory RSO session,,,
So, due to that, there are no RSO's permanently at the range.

This does make it a little "iffy" to call for a cease fire to check targets,,,
But for the most part our members are safe to be around.

What I have the most problems with are the self-appointed range monitors,,,
Usually older farts (like me) who think they are the boss-o-the-range.

Our range doesn't have any restriction on rapid fire,,,
Range dumps are allowed with no problem.

Long story short, one day I was shooting next to a couple,,,
Safe shooters, but who were burning through mags like crazy.

They were packing up when an old "range rat" came up yelling and screaming,,,
The couple did the right thing by completely ignoring the old azz-hat,,,
Then he came over and started yelling at me for the same thing.

I let him wind down without saying a word,,,
Then pointed to the only gun I had,,,
A WZ-48 single-shot .22.

He got all flustered and left in his car,,,
I did jot down his license plate number though,,,
And reported his behavior to the president of our club.

I honestly don't know what officially was done,,,
But in several years since I've never seen him there again.

Believe me though,,,
There are several more members just like him.

Aarond

.
 
Now, I'm fairly certain it's impossible to **** up buying 30-30 as it's one of the most sold hunting rounds in the good ol' USA.

I have a Remington Model 8. It's chambered in .30-30 Remington. Which, while otherwise virtually identical to .30-30 Winchester, is a rimless cartridge.

Not long after introduction Remington changed the name to just ".30 Remington." Which was fine, until the ".30 Remington AR" came out, which is an entirely different cartridge, but more popular than .30 Remington, so the search engines return avalanches of AR hits when you don't want them...

On the other hand, I'll concede your point, since the .30-30 Remington name went away more than a century ago.
 
Whenever I read a discussion like this I am reminded that not all gun owners are as careful, as skilled, as trained, or as responsible as the members of this group probably are.

And it's the actions of fools and criminals that form perceptions about guns in the minds of the unfamiliar.
 
After clearing a range gun, I handed it back to the dealer. He checked the chamber and pulled the trigger... with the muzzle pointed at my chest. I didn't strike me until I got into my car what he just did.
 
One of the employees at Bulleye in the city of STL repeated used the n word in front of customers (including me).

I never went back. It closed I believe. Good riddance to that know it all greasy cop shop.
 
And then there's the 20 something cholo and his extra hot girlfriend with more makeup on than you'd see, well, just about anywhere. He's strutting around like the cock of the walk and she's soooo impressed. He loads his Glock, motions her over; doesn't say a word to her, just hands her the pistol. Not wanting to appear girlish, she takes it, turns away from downrange with her finger in the guard (at this point I'm debating getting loud or moving off), turns back to her target and (I'm not kidding) grabs her gun hand wrist, aims, and fires; scared the daylights out of her. Boyfriend laughs, repeat and rinse. I finally got the rangemaster's attention, who promptly disarms her and thoroughly chastises the boyfriend. They left shortly after, to the relief of everyone near. I didn't get shot that day.
 
Picture an informal, desert wash shoot with a bunch of regulars back in the mid-80's. Maybe a dozen of us, all told.

The only good spot to hit targets from down in the wash is about 15 yards wide, and that was where we were set up.

Down in the bottom was a large, old steel tank, rusted to almost nothing. It was one of the handy targets for us.

An older, heavyweight cowboy-type rolled up and asked if he could shoot with us. Sure!

I think he was a bit uncomfortable with our type of armament, so...

He went a bit West, down the bank and set up a small table and pulled out a Buntline Ruger SA.

From his vantage, he was looking at the concave bottom of that old tank.

He fired one round at it, and fell down yelling "I've been hit"!

Turns out his slug flattened out and bounced off the thicker bottom of that tank, hitting him flat in the gut. It was a disk of lead, about the size of a silver dollar.

He had a beauty of a bruise just below his navel, but was OK after a bit and some cool H2O.

Packed up his table, pistol, and he left the souvenir with us. He was lucky it didn't hit him edge on like a sharp Frisbee.

Conelrad
 
The RSO who screamed at me when I put my fired .38-40 WCF cases out of my Colt New Service back into my ammo box, instead on the ground per the "No Scavenging- All fired brass belongs to the range" policy.

Yeah, right...
 
Looooong time ago, shooting 22's for rats at the dump, there was an old console TV. We shot at the picture tube, but it didn't break, but we heard ricochets, some seemed to come back at us. We checked and found out the early picture tubes had a metal "bell" which "focused" our shots back at us. We were young once, and stupid. Proof God watches over idiots.
 
The current Covid situation has brought out the scared, uniformed, the newbies and some misinformed of dubious mental and emotional stability.
I work a p/t retirement job at a LGS. Here are some of the question I have been asked, judge for yourself their level of ability to own a firearm. See some of my sometime sarcastic replies in parentheses.

• Do you have any bullets that will just wound but not kill. ( No, go buy some pepper spray)

• Got any Glock 40, 9's ( No all sold out)

•I wants a Tec nine. ( Sorry don't carry them, never did)

• I want "clips" for my 45 ( magazines come in full size and compact) I don't know. (what is the name of the weapon.) I don't know( CAN you bring the weapon in and I will try and help you) can't you just give me one? (No sir it may not fit.They are not all the same.)
(What does it say on the barrel ) I think it was made by Hi-point C9. (Sir that would indicate it is a 9mm) forget it I'm going somewhere else. (Yes sir thank you)

• what do you have for $200. (Nothing sir)

•Gimme one of them hipoints ( Sorry don't carry them)

•You got any Drago 's or evo's. (yes sir, as I clear it and hand him one) why so expensive. Got one cheaper. (No sir) I'm taking my business elsewhere. (Bye)

• Can I but a gun if I did time in jail for assault? ( No sir) thanks for nothing.I

I got more but I have taken up too much of your time already.
Stay safe
Doc
 
• Do you have any bullets that will just wound but not kill. ( No, go buy some pepper spray)

I have told the story repeatedly of being in Cabela's and seeing a guy and his significant female wanting to buy a pump gun:

1. The rack will scare away the BGs.
2. Give me some blanks if the rack won't work.
3. The clerk also recommends rubber buckshot.
4. I step in (never again!) to say this is silly. Get hateful glares and retreat.
 
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Looooong time ago, shooting 22's for rats at the dump,

Your post really takes me back. I did some of my first shooting at the dump, shooting at but not hitting rats. My dad would take me there with his single shot .22 rifle. That would have been close to 60 years ago.

I used to feel bad that I don't have an indoor range available to me but after reading some of the comments here about the shenanigans that take place at some of them maybe I'm better off without one. I do have access to multiple outdoor ranges at the club I belong to and it's never crowded. Often I have the place all to myself and if there are other shooters present it's big enough that we spread out. I can't say I've ever seen someone do something that I felt impacted my personal safety while there.
 
I have told the story repeatedly of being in Cabela's and seeing a guy and his significant female wanting to buy a pump gun:

1. The rack will scare away the BGs.
2. Give me some blanks if the rack won't work.
3. The clerk also recommends rubber buckshot.
4. I step in (never again!) to say this is silly. Get hateful glares and retreat.



Oh, do you mean like 5 is enough - thus justifying banning higher capacity guns?

Respectfully ,got a chuckle at your post. Personally I would never step in and offer any advice at a gun counter. Certainly would not do this at a LGS.. Especially a opinion of a Snubbie. A lot of inexperienced people do go to a LGS. BUT a lot of experienced as well. Easy to post a opinion on the internet. But I would not advise putting down a little snubbie at a LGS. Might turn into a not so nice outcome.
 
No, I'm not a good Samaritan on gun issues anymore. However, since I looked like a wise elder nowadays, I am sometimes asked for advice and will give it. I note that males of middle age or older are experts on all things and do not want advice. Increasing lapping over belly size increases one's expertise and knowledge.

I am qualified, more than most, to comment on snubbies but the Taurus 85 in my wife's purse crowd are the epitome of autodidactic wisdom and not needing of mine.

Young males will puff up if you tell their female companion anything. I might if her safety is an issue, being a dad with a daughter. At a match, a new stud shows up with a fancy rig (shoots crappy), he brings his lady friend who had some shiny chrome piece of crap he probably bought her. They are wearing their ball caps backwards. Now shooting a rifle you might. In a pistol match, the brim forward can help avoid a hot empty in your face. I tell the young lady to turn it around. She asks why and I explain. She thanks me and does it. Studly Shoot-Right is incensed! If he starts up, there are 10 old geezer friends who could shoot him into the ground. Three are the LAW.

Never saw them again.
 
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