Early case head separation?

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Bixster_inc

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Hello all.

I cleaned up some Winchester .308 brass that was the result of a couple of cases of 180gr soft point I got a steal of a deal on a few years back. I burned them all off in either my AR-10 or my Ruger Precision Rifle and left the spent brass in a bucket for some time before I worked it.

Two takeaways on the brass was I was surprised to find fine lines on the cases after just one firing. I tossed those and moved on with the rest. Another surprise was the length of the spent casings. Usually I cut my .308’s down to 2.000” but many were much shorter. I decided to take them down to 1.990” to get some semblance of uniformity but still many were under that.

I did a full length resize on all the cases and loaded them up using Hornady ELD Match 168 gr/ 40gr - 42gr (.2gr increments) of Varget/ Winchester LP’s. Trying to pick a winner for my Ruger was frustrating at best with the “winner” being barely under MOA @ 100 yards. I’ll take some of the blame for the poor groupings, I’ve got to stop chugging an energy drink on my way out to got shoot especially when I’m trying to be precise. I’ll also pin some blame on the case length variances effecting seating depth. Figuring it’d get better as the cases stretched a little I dumped my spent brass in the tumbler for a couple hours and prepared to whip up another batch of test loads.

Once out of the tumbler I found another 5 or so that had begun to show early signs of case head separation. I tossed the whole lot of 100 and I’ll pick up some virgin starline brass tomorrow to replace them with.

So now that I rambled/ranted, is this normal? I feel like only getting 2 firings means I’m doing something wrong. I was under the impression that Winchester made decent brass and I’ve got a couple batches in other calibers made from virgin Win brass that I haven’t tested yet.

As always, any advice is appreciated.
 
Pictures? You may be mistaking expansion ridge for incipient case fail.

you should only be sizing enough for easy chambering rather than maximum sizing available by your die.
Common rookie mistake we’ve all made. Neither of the rifles you mentioned should be “brass stretchers”.
 
Pictures? You may be mistaking expansion ridge for incipient case fail.

you should only be sizing enough for easy chambering rather than maximum sizing available by your die.
Common rookie mistake we’ve all made. Neither of the rifles you mentioned should be “brass stretchers”.

I usually try to bump back the casing about .004 but I mostly have reloaded for gas guns. I did a full length resize on this batch because they were out of two different rifles but had planned on neck sizing only this round until I found the rings.

I didn’t take a photo of them before tossing unfortunately but I could feel an indentation when scraping over the case with my fingernail if that means anything.
 
The cases are being stretched on extraction. These gas guns open up when there is a residual pressure in the barrel, typically less than 650 psia. This is to aid in the ejection of the cartridge case, but it results in stretch of the case sidewalls.
I consider Varget a bit slow for a gas gun, having tried it myself in my M1a's. I recommend you try IMR 3031 and IMR4895/H4895. I would try IMR 3031 first as it is a faster powder and the pressures at unlock should be slightly lower.

I started shooting NRA across the course service rifle just after the Garand had left the scene, but before the AR15 replaced the M1a on the firing line. Basically, once the AMU started winning the Service Rifle Championship, with their NM M16’s, which was around 1995, the AR15 disappeared quickly from the firing line. It is my recollection that 1996 was the last time the Marine Corp Rifle Team used the M14 as an across the course service rifle. In 1997 the Marines all had match M16’s. This is over 20 years ago and so the memory of the M1a as a match rifle is probably fading, and so were its peculiarities as to ammunition and case life.


At the time, experienced shooters recommended that cases would last only four or five reloads, which is about 5 to 6 firings, and to discard the cases before the case heads came off in the rifle. They would show me their cases, some I would take home, section them, see for myself how much severe case head stretch had developed. Garands and M1a’s are hard on brass:

120cPyI.jpg


I met a Distinguished HM who was shooting lubricated cases in his M1a. He left the RCBS case lube on his cases, never tumbled the lube off, and he said he could take a set of brass all shooting season. He was a gunsmith and a shooter who had won every XTC medal you could get, with lubricated cases, so his credibility was high. Like others I had read Hatcher’s Notebook and its warnings about greased bullets, and of course read all the gloom and doom predictions from in print gunwriters about oil/grease on cases, but here was something that was clearly working out differently from the prognostications of the authority figures.


In time I determined that the Distinguished HM was 100% correct, and the greased bullet/case fears were baseless.


Cost is an important consideration to me. There are those to whom case life and case cost are irrelevant, but few people got to retire with footlockers of free military brass. I have noticed that new “bargain” 308 Win is priced $22.00 for twenty rounds, so brass has become even more expensive over the years. While I cannot speak for others, but for me, saving money is important: the cost of replacing cases after five firings is significant, especially if you are shooting an M1a to earn the Distinguished Rifleman’s Badge . Being able to amortized the cost of a set of brass, 10 or even 20 firings, results in considerable cost savings over tossing the brass after five firings.


Brass life in a bolt rifle can be orders of magnitude higher than what a gas gunner can expect. Bolt rifles are easy on brass, less scratches and dents, and the brass is not stretched on extraction because the bolt is opened after chamber pressure is zero. The primary cause of case head separations in a bolt gun is due to excessive set back of the shoulder during resizing. Cases are really meant to stretch once, and not more than 0.006”, which is the average distance between “Go” and “No Go” on a headspace gage. If cases stretch more than that, depending on a number of variables, cases will break.


Garands and M1a’s, are much harder on brass than bolt rifles. Gas guns are very hard on brass because they unlock while there is still pressure within the barrel. Col Chin, in his Machine Gun series, https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/index.html calls this the residual blow back effect. Unlocking while there still is pressure in the barrel pressure is deliberate, engineered into the timing of the mechanism, and adds to reliable function of the mechanism. The residual blow back effect will pop the case out of the chamber as long as barrel pressures are low, less than 650 psia, and if case to chamber friction is low. However, since the case is moving, with the insides pressurized, this also has the effect of stretching the case. Hatcher explained, in Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933, how cases stretch and why lubrication is essential in retarded blow back mechanisms:



Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types, by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC.


Retarded Blow-back Mechanism………………………..


There is one queer thing, however, that is common to almost all blow-back and retarded blow-back guns, and that is that there is a tendency to rupture the cartridges unless they are lubricated. This is because the moment the explosion occurs the thin front end of the cartridge case swells up from the internal pressure and tightly grips the walls of the chamber. Cartridge cases are made with a strong solid brass head a thick wall near the rear end, but the wall tapers in thickness until the front end is quiet thin so that it will expand under pressure of the explosion and seal the chamber against the escape of gas to the rear. When the gun is fired the thin front section expands as intended and tightly grips the walls of the chamber, while the thick rear portion does not expand enough to produce serious friction. The same pressure that operates to expand the walls of the case laterally, also pushes back with the force of fifty thousand pounds to the square inch on the head of the cartridge, and the whole cartridge being made of elastic brass stretches to the rear and , in effect, give the breech block a sharp blow with starts it backward. The front end of the cartridge being tightly held by the friction against the walls of the chamber, and the rear end being free to move back in this manner under the internal pressure, either one of two things will happen. In the first case, the breech block and the head of the cartridge may continue to move back, tearing the cartridge in two and leaving the front end tightly stuck in the chamber; or, if the breech block is sufficiently retarded so that it does not allow a very violent backward motion, the result may simply be that the breech block moves back a short distance and the jerk of the extractor on the cartridge case stops it, and the gun will not operate.



However this difficultly can be overcome entirely by lubricating the cartridges in some way. In the Schwarzlose machine gun there is a little pump installed in the mechanism which squirts a single drop of oil into the chamber each time the breech block goes back. In the Thompson Auto-rifle there are oil-soaked pads in the magazine which contains the cartridges. In the Pedersen semiautomatic rifle the lubrication is taken care of by coating the cartridges with a light film of wax.



Blish Principle….There is no doubt that this mechanism can be made to operate as described, provided the cartridge are lubricated, …. That this type of mechanism actually opens while there is still considerable pressure in the cartridge case is evident from the fact that the gun does not operate satisfactorily unless the cartridges are lubricated.




While neither the Garand or M1a are retarded blowback actions, cases are still stretched by the residual blow back effect engineered in these mechanisms. This pressure curve is of the Garand gas system. Do notice that unlock is complete when pressures are 600 psia. The case is being extracted for a distance of half inches before pressure is zero.




oMRSvid.jpg


These cases were fired lubricated with Johnson Paste wax, as can be seen with the case gage, the shoulders have moved, as the case moved, during extraction. These cases were sized between the Go and No Go of this gage, and yet, because they were pulled out of the chamber during the residual blow back period, the case shoulders moved forward to fill the void. If these cases had not been lubricated, instead of the shoulder folding out to the contours of the chamber, the case sidewalls would have been stretched, damaging the case and leading to case head separations.





TqQrriR.jpg


Case life is not a concern of the military, they don’t expect Soldiers to reload their ammunition, but for civilian shooters desiring to maximum the case life of a round fired in a gas gun, case life can be greatly extended by the practice of cartridge lubrication. Case lubrication will prevent the case neck and shoulders from adhering to the chamber, so that when the case is extracted under pressure, case sidewalls are not stretched. I am of the opinion that lubricated cases will improve extraction reliability because pressure is not zero, some part of the case is being dragged against the chamber. This is the primary reason M16’s have “extractor lift”. The case drags in the chamber and follows off the bolt face. Increasing case to chamber friction always reduces extraction reliability. Lessening case to chamber friction always improves extraction reliability.

aGutQAV.jpg


The picture below showing case head stretch are typical of dry cases fired in a M1a or a Garand. Those were from a shooting bud and they were five times fired. Scratches are from a bent paperclip inserted in the case mouth, I was trying to find the side with the deepest stretch ring.

C4x558F.jpg


When I resized my cases, I sized the cases to gage minimum or if the brass is to be fired in only one M1a, I sometimes push the shoulder back 0.003” from the chamber headspace. It turns out, it is easier just to size to gage minimum. Primarily I use RCBS water soluble case lube, because the stuff sizes well and is easy to wash off in soap and water. I size my gas gun cases in small base dies. I set up the dies with cartridge headspace gages.


ODsYmCL.jpg


Most of rounds I fired I coated with Johnson Paste wax. I believe the hard, durable wax in Johnson Paste wax is ceresin wax, the same wax that John Pedersen used in his wax coating of the 276 Pedersen rifle:



Patented Nov. 4, 1930

PATENT OFFICE JOHN DOUGLAS PEDERSEN, OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS


http://www.google.com/patents/US1780566


In the preparation of cartridges having metal cases for storage and for use, it has been found desirable to apply to said metal case a relatively thin coating of some protective substance which will preserve said metal case for comparatively long periods of time against-deterioration, such as season cracking. In the present invention, the material for said coating has been so chosen as to perform the additional function of acting as a lubricant for the case of the cartridge, both for facilitating introduction into the chamber of the gun and the extraction thereof after firing. The most suitable wax which I have found for this purpose and which I at present prefer is ceresin, a refined product of ozokerite; but I wish it to be understood that other waxes having similar qualities may exist which might serve equally well. Some of the desirable features of ceresin are that it is hard and non-tacky at ordinary temperatures having a melting point somewhere between 140 and 176 Fahrenheit. It is smooth and glassy when hard and does not gather dirt or dust. However, when the ceresin on the cartridges is melted in the chamber of a gun, it becomes a lubricant.



Other lubricating waxes have been employed for coating cartridges, and the method most generally pursued for applying said coating to the cartridge case has been to prepare a heated bath of a solution of the wax in a suitable solvent, dip the cartridges therein so that a film of the solution will adhere thereto, and finally withdraw the cartridges to permit the solvent to evaporate from the coating film. This former process is comparatively slow and has been found lacking in several important respects.



KMp8zlZ.jpg


Even though it was a time consuming process, for match ammunition, I preferred coating my match cartridges with Johnson paste wax. And it was for precisely the same reasons as John Pedersen gave: It is smooth and glassy when hard and does not gather dirt or dust If you have ever shot in an XTC rifle match, you are on the field all day. None of the ranges I shot had running water, for bathrooms: you went around the berm. Because I could not wash, I preferred to not have industrial or automotive greases all over my hands. Another thing in XTC matches, you don’t get a lunch break. You munch on whatever you brought in the few minutes of between relays and preparation periods. I did not want to be eating axle grease with my sandwich. So, for match ammunition, I preferred Johnson paste wax.


At Camp Perry in cold weather I had bolt over rides with some of my Johnson paste waxed rounds during a rapid fire stage. This stopped when I polished the rounds with a rag. Previous to that I shot the rounds with swirls and gobs of paste wax but evidentially that caused sluggish round rise in the magazine in cold weather. From then on I polished my rapid fire rounds and have never had a bolt close on an empty chamber even in rapid fires sequences in snow. For slow fire rounds, I left the gobs of wax alone.


With a 168 SMK/Hornady/Speer/Nosler match I used 41.5 grains IMR 4895 or AA2495 whatever was cheaper. I shot estate sale IMR 4895, I shot 32 pounds of AA2495 through my M1a. AA2495 is a copy of IMR 4895 and the Chinese made version I bought shot exceptionally well. I cut loads, sometimes by half a grain in 90 + weather, but of the brass sectioned below, most of the time I shot a 168 Match with 41.5 grains AA2495/IMR 4895. I also shot 175 SMK’s with 41.0 to 41.5 grains IMR 4895/AA2495. These are hot loads, especially 41.5 grs IMR 4895 and I used them at 600/1000 yards.


Since earning my Distinguished Rifleman Badge I have been loading lighter loads out to 300 yards. I will push a 168 Match to just 2550 fps, such as the chronographed surplus powder load I developed. At 600 yards I still bump up loads to 41.5 grains IMR 4895. Velocities of my loads are as below. These velocities were all measured in a Douglas barreled M1a with lubricated cases. While velocity is not a direct measure of pressure, if pressures were high, and dangerous, as claimed by Hatcherites, then I ought to see abnormal velocities with lubricated cases.


Code:
 168 Nosler  41.0 Military Surplus MSG 4895 IMI Match CCI 200  OAL 2.750"
                                                  
21 June 2008 T =  85  °F        
 
Ave Vel =                    2552    
Std Dev =                    11        
ES =                            27        
High =                         2565    
Low =                          2538    
N =                              5          


168 Nosler Match 41.0 AA2495 LC72 WLR  OAL   2.8    
29-Apr-04            T= 78 ° F

Ave Vel =            2517                                                                    
Std Dev =             21                                                                        
ES =                     68                                                                      
Low =                  2486                                                                  
High =                  2554                                                                    
N =                      17                                                                        
                                                                                                     

168 gr Sierra Match 41.5 gr AA2520  LC Mixed  WLR OAL 2.800              
22-Apr-99 T = 75- 80°F      
                                                                                 

Ave Vel =                2601                                                           
Std Dev =                14                                                              
ES =                        38                                                              
Low =                      2584                                                          
High =                     2622                                                          
N =                          10                                                              
                                                                   

175 gr Sierra Match 41.5 gr AA2495 LC87 W/W OAL 2.800
29-Jun-96

Ave Vel =                  2579            
Std Dev =                  13                
ES =                          40                
Low =                        2564            
High =                       2604            
N =                            10                


174 FMJBT 40.5 grs H4895 wtd, lot 4501 LC mixed WLR OAL 2.800"
18 May 2008 T =  71 °F                                                                                                          

Ave Vel =            2524                                   
Std Dev =            36                                      
ES =                    90                                      
High =                 2587                                  
Low =                 2497                                  
N =                      5                                        
 

174 FMJBT 41.0 grs H4895 wtd, lot 4501 LC mixed WLR OAL 2.800"
18 May 2008 T =  71 °F                                

Ave Vel =            2594                                   
Std Dev =            14                                      
ES =                    30                                      
High =                 2609                                  
Low =                 2579                                  
N =                      5                                        

174 FMJBT 41.5 grs H4895 wtd, lot 4501 LC mixed WLR OAL 2.800"
18 May 2008 T =  71 °F
                              
Ave Vel =            2593                                   
Std Dev =            15                                      
ES =                    42                                      
High =                 2613                                  
Low =                 2571                                  
N =    5


I don’t like the feel of greasy cases and if I had time between matches I washed the cases to remove the RCBS lube, primed them clean, loaded them with powder and bullet, and after that, applied paste wax. If I did not have time I fired the cases just as they came out of the die, minus whatever RCBS lube which was lost in handling. I never had a primer dud, even though I primed hundreds of cases that had a RCBS lube coating. I ran a number of experiments with various lubes. Leaving thick coatings of heavy greases is objectionable as grease particles are blown into the air, some out of the action, some out of the barrel. I had 1000 rounds of 7.62 CAVIM and I fired most of them in a FAL. FAL’s are very hard on brass and I had this stick wax, so I experimented with the stick wax. Stick wax is tenuous grease used to lubricate saw teeth. It really sticks to stuff. I dropped lumps of stick wax in a plastic bag with handfuls of CAVIM and shook vigorously. Both case and bullets were unevenly coated with globs of stick wax. When I fired this stuff it was as if a grease bomb went off. The mechanism became coated in stick wax, and I was coated in stick wax. My shooting glasses had to be frequently cleaned, my hands were greasy, my clothes were greasy, overall, it was messy. Because it was so messy, I later spent hours wiping the cases to reduce the amount of stick wax covering the cases. This was better, but I still had stick wax over my hands, clothes, and the stuff does not wash off easily. Stick wax does exactly what it is supposed to do: stick to the surface.


Some of the lubes I tried include Imperial sizing wax, Mink Oil shoe polish, Hornady Unique case lube, Lee lube, wire pulling wax, lubriplate greases and many combinations of axle grease and wheel bearing greases. I oiled cases with automotive oil. I will never again use stick wax. I never ever had issues with case damage or unusual case damage such as “serrations” as one Hatcherite claimed would happen with Imperial sizing wax. Any one claiming such nonsense has to be confabulating experiences from their own fantasy land of physics.

After much testing , I came to the decision that I preferred dry coatings. Even so, with RCBS water soluble, after all the handling that occurs with trimming, priming, dumping the powder , seating the bullet, the amount of RCBS case lube left on the case does not leave objectionable residue in the mechanism or eyeglasses.

The picture below are of sectioned cases, R stands for reloaded, R5 five times reloaded, etc, all of these cases the shoulder was set back about 0.003” and the cases fired in my M1a. I do not visually see any evidence of case wall thinning from those cases reloaded 5 times (6 times fired) , R18, or R22. As long as the case is not excessively stretched during firing or extraction, there is no reason for the sidewalls to thin.

7W5aJuk.jpg

6wVgbgx.jpg

8euIbcN.jpg


My basic conclusion is that if cartridge brass does not failure through case neck cracks, body splits, and you have not stretched them so they develop case head separations, you can load them until the primer pockets get too large. I quit shooting these cases because it became easy to insert the primers in the pocket. Loose primer pockets will release primers when the round is fed into the chamber. I have had jams due to loose primers in a number of semi automatic mechanisms. I had lots of jams in my 45 ACP M1911’s due to range pickup AMERC brass. AMERC brass was some of the worst I ever used, oversized primer pockets were just one issue, and I had primers come out of primed AMERC cases as they were fed into the chamber.

I found that I needed to periodically ream the primer pockets: the pockets became shallow. Don’t know why unless the primer pocket collapses over time. As incidental contact with the primer can cause a slamfire or an out of battery slamfire, keeping the primer below the case head is a safety critical issue.

I believe that lubricated cases will produce more consistent accuracy than dry cases. Chambers foul and they foul unevenly. I am of the opinion that irregular binding occurs when cases adhere to the chamber. Lubricated cases evenly transfer the thrust to the locking mechanism. For their roller bolt rifles, which use gas lubrication to break case friction, HK used to make a statement to that effect on their web page.

PB9SaEH.jpg


I don’t think it is any coincidence that all match 22lr ammunition is liberally greased from rim to bullet tip. I am also of the opinion that all semi automatic mechanisms eject more reliably if the case to chamber friction is reduced. While the M1a has been developed to an accurate service rifle, I believe any inaccuracy due to case friction is in the noise level for this mechanism.


I can say I earned my Distinguished Rifleman’s Badge and won a Regional Gold with lubricated cases in the M1A. My accuracy and function with lubricated cases was more than acceptable. My case life was orders of magnitude greater than those who fired dry cases, so I saved money. That has to mean something. I shot two barrels out on one M1a, all with lubricated cases. I did not notice any unusual wear patterns on the bolt, operating rod, receiver.

wq6OO1r.jpg

As long as the cases go bang in your rifle, and that you only fire loads that are within book value, with powders appropriate to a gas gun, I am going to recommend that you lubricate your cases to extend your case life and that you go to a faster rifle powder.
 
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Although the culprit is probably the AR, it wouldn't hurt to check the headspace on the Ruger... some of the RPR's have had problems with cross-threaded muzzle brakes and crazy stuff like that, so it wouldn't hurt to go over it, particularly if you are driving it for accuracy. I suspect if you are truly getting case stretching, it's the AR unlocking too early; a heavier buffer and/or an adjustable gas block will alleviate some of those problems.

I've also found it's better to isolate brass for a particular firearm. In my case... with .308... that is a separate lot of cases for my M1a (brutal on brass,) my Savage bolt gun (loaded to higher pressures, and for accuracy,) and my Savage 99 (low velocity cast bullet loads.) This eliminates a lot of problems trying to use brass across different rifles with different characteristics.

I have had to scrap entire lots of brass, particularly in .308, because case problems started to get out of control... don't get attached to brass, it's a consumable commodity and trying to be cheap and wring out every last loading can often cause you other problems somewhere else in the chain. Also, don't mistake chamber marks or sizer marks for case head separations... I have .308 cases that outwardly look like they are ready to separate, but scraping the case internally (and, occasionally, cross-sectioning one or two) show they are actually fine.

Dumb question, OP: Are you trimming and then sizing your cases... or sizing and then trimming?
 
If you are sizing and trimming your cases, then firing them and they get shorter, they are blowing out to fit the chamber. When you size them again they will be too long and you’ll have to trim again. This loss of brass is how a separation occurs.

You are sizing too much or you chamber is too large. If you are sizing using a case gauge, I would get some head space gauges and see if a “no go” goes.

You can adjust dies so your cases are a better fit to the chamber though, even if it’s out of spec. Adjust your die so the BCG will just close or on your bolt gun size them so, with the firing pin/spring removed, it will drop only about half way closed on a sized case. They will last a very long time at that point and you won’t be trimming all the time.

4F539AE3-EA8D-4854-B434-2D7422E3F7FC.jpeg

There are also non destructive ways to know exactly what the wall thickness is throughout the case. I built this simple jig for the job.

FAAC6E44-0724-4F37-B728-48A3F6837E39.jpeg

Works like this (but you wouldn’t cut the case in half):) B6D9B8B2-0061-41CC-9674-AB585F4320FB.jpeg
 
Pictures? You may be mistaking expansion ridge for incipient case fail.
This first.

This is an expansion mark
index.php


Here is a good thread on what to look for and how to avoid case head separation.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/incipient-case-head-separation.734058/

A pic from that thread.
index.php




.
 
Indentation is internal with case failure. Brass is forced out to outide of chamber at 50-60,000psi.
You have to use a dental pick or a bent paper clip to feel the internal groove left by case stretch. All you see on the outside of the case is a thin bright ring around the case about 3/4-1” above the case head.
 
Although the culprit is probably the AR, it wouldn't hurt to check the headspace on the Ruger... some of the RPR's have had problems with cross-threaded muzzle brakes and crazy stuff like that, so it wouldn't hurt to go over it, particularly if you are driving it for accuracy. I suspect if you are truly getting case stretching, it's the AR unlocking too early; a heavier buffer and/or an adjustable gas block will alleviate some of those problems.

I've also found it's better to isolate brass for a particular firearm. In my case... with .308... that is a separate lot of cases for my M1a (brutal on brass,) my Savage bolt gun (loaded to higher pressures, and for accuracy,) and my Savage 99 (low velocity cast bullet loads.) This eliminates a lot of problems trying to use brass across different rifles with different characteristics.

I have had to scrap entire lots of brass, particularly in .308, because case problems started to get out of control... don't get attached to brass, it's a consumable commodity and trying to be cheap and wring out every last loading can often cause you other problems somewhere else in the chain. Also, don't mistake chamber marks or sizer marks for case head separations... I have .308 cases that outwardly look like they are ready to separate, but scraping the case internally (and, occasionally, cross-sectioning one or two) show they are actually fine.

Dumb question, OP: Are you trimming and then sizing your cases... or sizing and then trimming?

To answer your question I resize before trimming and I’ll take my rifle, hands and handsome face over a piece of questionable brass any day lol.
 
Indentation is internal with case failure. Brass is forced out to outide of chamber at 50-60,000psi.
You have to use a dental pick or a bent paper clip to feel the internal groove left by case stretch. All you see on the outside of the case is a thin bright ring around the case about 3/4-1” above the case head.

I’m going to dig one out of the trash to when I get home tonight but the rings I’m talking about are actually an indentation. The best way I can think to describe it is it’s as if I very lightly put the brass in a copper pipe cutter.
 
I’m going to dig one out of the trash to when I get home tonight but the rings I’m talking about are actually an indentation. The best way I can think to describe it is it’s as if I very lightly put the brass in a copper pipe cutter.

Section one of your cases and let us see what it looks like.

But, if you notice most of the advice you are getting about resizing is from bolt gunners. And these guys don't understand the operation of gas guns, which incidentally, the AR10 is one of them, and therefore they do not understand how the dynamics of extraction stretch cases.

I highly recommend using a case gauge , as show in my pictures, to set up your sizing dies. And for a gas gun, it is easier to size gauge minimum. Because cases are stretched on extraction you cannot use a fired case to determine the chamber headspace, again, this is one of those gas gun things. The only way you know the actual chamber space is by inserting chamber headspace gauges.That would also require the removal of the extractor and spring loaded ejector, the spring tension on those items would provide false indications of resistance. And I would not use the bolt carrier as the gas rings would add resistance that would mess up any sensitivity to bolt closure.
 
Section one of your cases and let us see what it looks like.

But, if you notice most of the advice you are getting about resizing is from bolt gunners. And these guys don't understand the operation of gas guns, which incidentally, the AR10 is one of them, and therefore they do not understand how the dynamics of extraction stretch cases.

I highly recommend using a case gauge , as show in my pictures, to set up your sizing dies. And for a gas gun, it is easier to size gauge minimum. Because cases are stretched on extraction you cannot use a fired case to determine the chamber headspace, again, this is one of those gas gun things. The only way you know the actual chamber space is by inserting chamber headspace gauges.That would also require the removal of the extractor and spring loaded ejector, the spring tension on those items would provide false indications of resistance. And I would not use the bolt carrier as the gas rings would add resistance that would mess up any sensitivity to bolt closure.

So until I can get home and look at this again I’m hypothesizing here but aside from this Win brass I don’t have this issue. I’ve got 300 rounds of milsurp brass that have 3+ firings out of the AR with 0 issues.

I also have 100 rounds of Hornady factory ammo brass that was all fired through the Ruger waiting for me to pick a load that also has 0 issues.

My other AR10, chambered in 6.5 creedmoor using Hornady & Starline brass for my hand loads has a batch I just reloaded for the 6th time (7th firing) with 0 issues.

For some reason some of this Win brass couldn’t make it through the factory firing and I lost more after firing #2 before scrapping the lot. I mean could it just be from bad brass lot?
 
I mean could it just be from bad brass lot?

Yes, absolutely. Almost all factory brass has, at one time or another, gotten a bad rap about fatigue or poor performance... enlarged primer pockets, cracked necks, neck splits on the first firing, quickly work hardened, etc, etc. I have had a bad lot of Lake City (LC 04) that completely fractured through the case head and blew the mag out on my M1a. I've had .223 brass neck split about one of every 7 or 8 on the first (factory) firing. The list goes on... that's why I said not to get attached to your brass, if you are seeing signs of it being uncooperative, dump it and move on. :)
 
Yes, absolutely. Almost all factory brass has, at one time or another, gotten a bad rap about fatigue or poor performance... enlarged primer pockets, cracked necks, neck splits on the first firing, quickly work hardened, etc, etc. I have had a bad lot of Lake City (LC 04) that completely fractured through the case head and blew the mag out on my M1a. I've had .223 brass neck split about one of every 7 or 8 on the first (factory) firing. The list goes on... that's why I said not to get attached to your brass, if you are seeing signs of it being uncooperative, dump it and move on. :)

I’d been wanting to learn hand loading for years and finally took the plunge about a year and a half ago. One thing always sticks out from years back was an old-timer told me while I was picking everyone’s brain was “not all brass is reloadable”.

The more I mull this over and read everyone’s advice, which is again, all appreciated I keep hearing that man’s words. I didn’t say this earlier but brass feels a certain way in your hands, this Win stuff felt different. I can’t explain how but it was noticeable to the touch. I don’t remember the rounds being that great either, especially past 100 yards. One day at the range it was so bad I came to the conclusion that my existing scope was broken so I left, bought a Vortex and went back to the same results.

Oh well, I went to the local sportsman’s warehouse this morning and they had some reasonably priced Hornady brass so I’ll load those out with my testers and get a winner this weekend.

I got lucky with my .223’s. A local gun shop had an overstock issue with 800rd cases of Norma Tac and were letting them go for $190/case. I bought 3 and I’ve gotten over 1,000 rounds of reloads out of them with some of the batches coming up on their 10th firing and they’re great in all my AR15...Can’t complain about that.
 
I didn’t say this earlier but brass feels a certain way in your hands, this Win stuff felt different. I can’t explain how but it was noticeable to the touch.

You were channeling your inner being... ;) It was speaking to you! I've had the same thing. I'm also a terrible headstamp snob, I've chucked brass just because I don't like the headstamp, or something else didn't look right. I had some Winchester .45ACP brass that had a funky looking rim... very thin, it wound up in my 'ain't going to pick the brass up' reload pile.
 
A good read on case gauges.

You need a way to measure where your shoulder is before and after shooting so you can set up your sizer die to get perfect function moving the shoulder no more than needed which will eliminate case head separations.

It can be free, cheap, reasonable, or pricey.

Home made "bump" gauge.
308 Shoulder Gauge Pic 3.JPG

CTS equivalent.

https://www.ctstrimmer.com/case-gauges/21-case-gauge.html

You can use a Wilson headspace gauge to do it as well.

The Sinclair system works well, you can use it to measure shoulder position or ogive position on bullets, just switch out inserts.

p_749002552_1.jpg
Comparator Body

Bump Gauge Inserts

Bullet Comparator Insets

Sinclair Comparator Body & Inserts.JPG
Sinclair Bullet Comparator Body & 6MM Insert on Caliper.jpg
 
I tried the paper clip trick but couldn’t feel anything on the inside. Outside however as you can see has a noticeable ring/indentation. The second pic is what I would consider to be a good one.


F8D04105-C831-4833-83D6-518D4F7F79E0.jpeg C6923418-EF34-4DA4-B145-7A41FB061B8F.jpeg
 
A good read on case gauges.

You need a way to measure where your shoulder is before and after shooting so you can set up your sizer die to get perfect function moving the shoulder no more than needed which will eliminate case head separations.

It can be free, cheap, reasonable, or pricey.

Home made "bump" gauge.
View attachment 866882

CTS equivalent.

https://www.ctstrimmer.com/case-gauges/21-case-gauge.html

You can use a Wilson headspace gauge to do it as well.

The Sinclair system works well, you can use it to measure shoulder position or ogive position on bullets, just switch out inserts.

View attachment 866887
Comparator Body

Bump Gauge Inserts

Bullet Comparator Insets

View attachment 866885
View attachment 866886

I have the Wilson case gauges for 223, 308 & 6.5 CM as well as the Hornady bullet & head space comparator sets which I use regularly. I’ve always set up my dies to knock back the shoulder .004” for my AR platform rifles prior to second cleaning and brass prep. Because this is the first time I would be reloading previously fired brass from a bolt gun for the same gun I opted instead to neck size only when I found the half dozen or so with rings and trashed them.

Honestly aside from measuring the headspace of the actual chamber I already do all these steps. I remember when I first started reloading about 18 months ago you and several others guided me through this process pretty well. The more I look at this and read the advice I’m starting to chalk this up to it’s just turd brass and I’m better off starting fresh. At least this way I’ll have more consistent trim to lengths as well.
 
I cleaned up some Winchester .308 brass that was the result of a couple of cases of 180gr soft point I got a steal of a deal on a few years back. I burned them all off in either my AR-10 or my Ruger Precision Rifle and left the spent brass in a bucket for some time before I worked it.


How old was that brass?. A few years, or a few decades? Gunpowder is deteriorating the day it leaves the factory and it outgasses NOx which is a spectrum of molecules, one of which is nitrogen di oxide a powerful oxidant. Nitrogen dioxide becomes nitric acid gas in the presence of water (call it humidity) and that stuff will ruin cases. Sort of like this:

Uv5MGSv.jpg

This piece of brass created an interesting accident. I was in the pits, we had just pulled targets for the second relay of 300 rapids, when two of the targets called insufficient. The line said "will get back to you". Then we heard there would be no alibi but two rifles had blown up on the firing line. :what:

Of course, I wanted to know what was going on. When I arrived at 300 yards for the relay change, a Nice Guy shooter I know and the Match Director were having an argument about "hot" ammunition. Seems Nice Guy had lent two AR15's and reloaded ammunition to two new shooters. Both of those shooters were firing the 300 yard rapids at the same time and both rifles "blew up" at the same time.

You can imagine the kerfuffle that created

2iaxj3I.jpg

What had happened was that both magazines were blown out of both guns, and the rounds extracted, and this will bake your noodle, the next round in the magazine fed, for both rifles! I was only able to grab one case, the Match Director tossed one case as far as he could toss it in his disgust with Nice Guy. He believed Nice Guy had loaded over pressure ammunition, Nice Guy was adamant that he had not.

Incidentally, with new magazines, the new shooters were ready to go. The AR15's were not damaged to the point of in operablilty.

This is the case I recovered, split through the case head. Nice Guy had bought it from Scharch and it was military surplus pull down brass. At the end of the match I showed the case around and another shooter said, he had bought surplus 223 brass from Scharch and had a bunch of cases that had cracked through the case head. I think the most likely cause of this brass failure was brass embrittlement through deteriorating gunpowder. The military dumps old ammunition that they have tested and determined that it is too unsafe to store and too unsafe to issue.

kCATIKE.jpg

YGDeM9C.jpg

4RIxk8m.jpg

So, how old is that ammunition?
 
How old was that brass?. A few years, or a few decades? Gunpowder is deteriorating the day it leaves the factory and it outgasses NOx which is a spectrum of molecules, one of which is nitrogen di oxide a powerful oxidant. Nitrogen dioxide becomes nitric acid gas in the presence of water (call it humidity) and that stuff will ruin cases. Sort of like this:

View attachment 866901

This piece of brass created an interesting accident. I was in the pits, we had just pulled targets for the second relay of 300 rapids, when two of the targets called insufficient. The line said "will get back to you". Then we heard there would be no alibi but two rifles had blown up on the firing line. :what:

Of course, I wanted to know what was going on. When I arrived at 300 yards for the relay change, a Nice Guy shooter I know and the Match Director were having an argument about "hot" ammunition. Seems Nice Guy had lent two AR15's and reloaded ammunition to two new shooters. Both of those shooters were firing the 300 yard rapids at the same time and both rifles "blew up" at the same time.

You can imagine the kerfuffle that created

View attachment 866902

What had happened was that both magazines were blown out of both guns, and the rounds extracted, and this will bake your noodle, the next round in the magazine fed, for both rifles! I was only able to grab one case, the Match Director tossed one case as far as he could toss it in his disgust with Nice Guy. He believed Nice Guy had loaded over pressure ammunition, Nice Guy was adamant that he had not.

Incidentally, with new magazines, the new shooters were ready to go. The AR15's were not damaged to the point of in operablilty.

This is the case I recovered, split through the case head. Nice Guy had bought it from Scharch and it was military surplus pull down brass. At the end of the match I showed the case around and another shooter said, he had bought surplus 223 brass from Scharch and had a bunch of cases that had cracked through the case head. I think the most likely cause of this brass failure was brass embrittlement through deteriorating gunpowder. The military dumps old ammunition that they have tested and determined that it is too unsafe to store and too unsafe to issue.

View attachment 866903

View attachment 866904

View attachment 866905

So, how old is that ammunition?

I’m so glad I seem to be the only person I know that hasn’t let the smoke out of a rifle yet. I credit over caution but the man upstairs and Lady Luck might also be involved. Funny thing is I was at the range one day, using these rounds in my AR and I got a double feed that left one round curved like a banana. While clearing the gun I had drawn the attention of the older gentleman next to me so I showed him the now defective round and placed it on the corner of my bench between he and I. He reached out, snatched it up, gave it quick once over before placing it on his table and giving it a whack with the rifle rests they have out there made from 2x4’s to straighten it back out. He then examines the round once again, forces it into his rifle and pulls the trigger and it goes off without a hitch. It freaked me out, realizing what he was about to do I hunkered down into my station putting as much of me as I could behind cinderblock, pulled my hood over my head and put my forearm up. After he fired I just asked “why?”

His response was classic.

“Because bullets ain’t cheap and I ain’t a sissy”

To answer your question, I don’t know. Local gun shop had them collecting dust, they were going out of business so they were looking to blow everything out the door they could. I walked in with cash and we worked out a deal. I want to say I bought them in mid 2017, probably didn’t start shooting them off until early ‘18 when the rains stopped. Then the brass sat in a bucket in the garage until November of last year when I started cleaning them up and reloading them. Then fishing started getting good so I took a break from the bullet making. I’d say I had them for 18 months and another 11 months since I put them back together but who knows how long they were sitting on the shelf at the store and how long they were at a warehouse before that.
 
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This is the case I recovered, split through the case head. Nice Guy had bought it from Scharch and it was military surplus pull down brass. At the end of the match I showed the case around and another shooter said, he had bought surplus 223 brass from Scharch and had a bunch of cases that had cracked through the case head. I think the most likely cause of this brass failure was brass embrittlement through deteriorating gunpowder. The military dumps old ammunition that they have tested and determined that it is too unsafe to store and too unsafe to issue.

Slam... that is EXACTLY what happened with my 7.62mm LC 04 lot... from Scharch. I posted about it on the M14 forum but no one really had any answers other than a bad lot of brass. That particular purchase was a 1K lot of processed brass, it had a bunch of headstamps, different LC, Win, PMJ, and others... but the only ones that blew out the case head was the LC 04. I have since culled all that out, but the bad taste remains, and I'm in the process of cycling out the rest of the 2K processed cases I got from Scharch. Oddly enough, I bought that brass around 2008, so it was only a few years old... which really points to bad brass. I had never considered deteriorated powder.
 
You have to sharpen the end of the wire/paper clip to a point so it will slide into the rut. Otherwise it will just ride over that thin rut. And yes some lots of brass are just junk!
 
Slam... that is EXACTLY what happened with my 7.62mm LC 04 lot... from Scharch. I posted about it on the M14 forum but no one really had any answers other than a bad lot of brass. That particular purchase was a 1K lot of processed brass, it had a bunch of headstamps, different LC, Win, PMJ, and others... but the only ones that blew out the case head was the LC 04. I have since culled all that out, but the bad taste remains, and I'm in the process of cycling out the rest of the 2K processed cases I got from Scharch. Oddly enough, I bought that brass around 2008, so it was only a few years old... which really points to bad brass. I had never considered deteriorated powder.

Lets talk about Agnotology: the study of culturally induced ignorance, as per the Wiki definition .

And a very good question is: why don't you know, what you don't know?

I am of the opinion that the ignorance of the shooting community about the affects of old, deteriorated gunpowder, is a deliberate phenomena. Firstly, no one makes money educating you on what not to buy! Lets say the OP's box of 308 Winchester had a best buy date of a decade before he walked in the store, he might have walked out without buying that box. As Orwell said "Ignorance is strength". The shooting community's ignorance is industry's strength. You will buy old, deteriorated ammunition, don't know any better, and when it blows up in your face, come up with some fantastical and nonsensical explanation, that will have absolutely nothing to do with the age of the ammunition.

But also, industry is only catering to the biases of the shooting community. The shooting community does not want to know. The shooting community thinks that they are going to live forever, therefore their hoard of ammunition has to be immortal. Suggesting otherwise, particularly that ammunition goes bad, will only bring hatred. People don't like attacks on their delusions. They want to believe in butterflies and unicorns

rJhFDjh.jpg

It is my opinion that ignorance and superstition are the natural state of mankind, every day a wise man dies, and every second a thousand ignorant babies are born. In the contest between reason and ignorance, ignorance wins just by numbers. So, who makes money educating a medieval society with internet that gunpowder deteriorates? No one.

So, what you read in those in print magazines only reinforces the shooting community biases, mis directs everyone away from knowledge that might protect them because someone is making a lot of money from ignorance!

Did you know the secret to a long life is cigarettes?

mnn8kwq.jpg


If you are addicted to nicotine, that is just what you want to read

4eZxbH2.jpg
 
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