Target Wadcutters for defense? Not sure...

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Riomouse911

Riomouse911

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While shooting the 4” 66-1 today I shot a few cylinders of Berry’s 148 gr HBWC over .2.8 gr Bullseye for fun.

The B-27 targets were stapled onto conveyor belt material, the rubber/corded stuff that’s about 30” wide and 5/8” thick.

After a few shots I thought I saw a cricket running across the pavement. One or two shots later I realized the bullets were either sticking into the paper or were bouncing off the backer and dropping onto the ground. I reloaded and fired six into the upper left corner to see what was going on.

To put it bluntly, these rounds had zero oomph. Even standard velocity .38 or .380 pass through the rubber without issue.

I know some folks rely on these loads to defend themselves, and they’re better than a sharp stick for sure, but if physical necessity isn’t an issue with the user I’ll suggest strongly that folks use something with more horsepower to defend their lives with and leave target wadcutters for punching paper.

Just an observation...

25B3CDA7-AC29-41A6-B1CC-D44BD13D4ED5.jpeg

One HBWC bullet stayed forward, the second did a 180. Four bounced off. Both of these bullets were stuck in the 5 layers of targets.

642EE151-3280-49C3-94A4-4C8E3DB3FD4F.jpeg

When I pulled the paper, the wadcutters left circular marks at the upper left. The other holes at right are from 9mm (right) and the cluster at the top is from .223.

593F990A-10E6-46C7-A312-3D04D5F5F150.jpeg

Some of the wadcutters that bounced off the conveyor belt material fell at the feet of the target stand. Others were scattered only a few feet further out.

Stay safe.
 
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Human beings aren't made out of conveyor belt material, and they don't normally run around dressed in the stuff.

A 148 HBWC at 800-1000 fps has fairly decent penetration in flesh and blood. There are better bullets now, but 30-40 years ago there weren't any .38 bullets that would expand reliably under 1000 fps impact velocity, and the wadcutter offered better performance out of short barrel revolvers.
 
When I was a LEO, I had the pleasure of meeting maybe a half dozen coroners. Most of them carried something for self defense. The predominant cartridge carried was the 38 wadcutter. I asked why and always got the same answer, “...based on observations from the autopsy table...”

Back then you could get target loads or full power loads with the wadcutter bullet.
Kevin
 
The higher powered stuff is no joke, those 1,000+ fps loads will be very effective striking a crook's torso... and the big-bore .44 and .45 bullets even better.
Had these been charges 3.5 gr Bullseye (or heavier) then there's no doubt they'll punch through the rubber backing, and would be pretty darn lethal used for defense.

Based on what looked like a mere bruise on the backing material, I have serious doubts the 650-700-750 fps .38 wadcutter loads that many people load in 2" revolvers would penetrate an adult male sternum...especially if the crook is wearing a sturdy jacket.

Just food for thought...:)

Stay safe.
 
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Alaskan Ironworker said:
New body armor idea lol
Click to expand...

Somebody tell Gecko45!

I hope ya'll know who that is.:D

https://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

I load WC bullets but for defense loads they are more like 4.5grs of Bullseye with a solid bullet and I promise they will shoot through your rubber backer. You will do a little better with 3grs of Bullseye behind those bullets. According to C.E. Harris Bullseye powder is not as strong now as the older BE powder.

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm
 
Riomouse911 said:
While shooting the 4” 66-1 today I shot a few cylinders of Berry’s 148 gr HBWC over .2.8 gr Bullseye for fun.

The B-27 targets were stapled onto conveyor belt material, the rubber/corded stuff that’s about 30” wide and 5/8” thick.

After a few shots I thought I saw a cricket running across the pavement. One or two shots later I realized the bullets were either sticking into the paper or were bouncing off the backer and dropping onto the ground. I reloaded and fired six into the upper left corner to see what was going on.

To put it bluntly, these rounds had zero oomph. Even standard velocity .38 or .380 pass through the rubber without issue.

I know some folks rely on these loads to defend themselves, and they’re better than a sharp stick for sure, but if physical necessity isn’t an issue with the user I’ll suggest strongly that folks use something with more horsepower to defend their lives with and leave target wadcutters for punching paper.

Just an observation...

View attachment 868305

One HBWC bullet stayed forward, the second did a 180. Four bounced off. Both of these bullets were stuck in the 5 layers of targets.

View attachment 868307

When I pulled the paper, the wadcutters left circular marks at the upper left. The other holes at right are from 9mm (right) and the cluster at the top is from .223.

View attachment 868306

Some of the wadcutters that bounced off the conveyor belt material fell at the feet of the target stand. Others were scattered only a few feet further out.

Stay safe.
Click to expand...
Back a million years ago [ ok,how about 50/40 years ] we used to load HBWC [ hollow based wad cutters ] backwards so they had a HUGE hollow point.

Then came Scorpion hollowpoints,pretty much the same idea but with a nipple to 'help expansion'

IF you look back,you might even find that those loads were the first one's issues to Marshals on board aircraft.

To avoid overpenetration.
 
I’ve done that, even at pedestrian velocities they make a real mess out of watermelons and 2-liter soda bottles... at 1,000 fps and up the soda in the plastic bottles almost vaporizes upon impact. :D

Stay safe.
 
Ratshooter said:
Somebody tell Gecko45!

I hope ya'll know who that is.:D

https://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

I load WC bullets but for defense loads they are more like 4.5grs of Bullseye with a solid bullet and I promise they will shoot through your rubber backer. You will do a little better with 3grs of Bullseye behind those bullets. According to C.E. Harris Bullseye powder is not as strong now as the older BE powder.

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm
Click to expand...
Ya, 4.5 gr BE is stepping it up a great deal more than these accurate little paper-punchers were moving at. I’d have little hesitation using those in a .38 if my regular defensive loads were unavailable.

Stay safe.
 
Riomouse911 said:
Ya, 4.5 gr BE is stepping it up a great deal more than these accurate little paper-punchers were moving at. I’d have little hesitation using those in a .38 if my regular defensive loads were unavailable.
Click to expand...

Yes those are hot loads but they are right out of the Speer manual for solid, not hollow base WC bullets. I also leave a little of the nose out of the front of the case to enter the chamber a little. I also seat them out about 1/4" so they will feed through my Marlin lever action. Most of the WC bullets I use are Lee 148gr tumble lube bullets I cast several years ago. I have a big tub full of them. I also load SWC bullets with the same charge.

I have tried the reversed WC hollow base bullets several times but have never been impresses with their accuracy. Most start tipping after just a few yards. Shooting water jugs I get more with flattened bases because they were starting to tip and then some land like you want them to and they expand very well.

I read an article many years ago in a Guns&Ammo magazine and they tested double hollow base WC bullets. But they didn't say who made them but they were balanced instead of being tail heavy and trying to reverse in flight. They made beautiful mushrooms every shot.
 
I've Never seen double hollow base WC bullets, I bet they’re pretty vicious if loaded to a decent velocity.

The HBWC will tumble, I’d say they are good for 7 yards, maybe 10. It’s like throwing a shuttlecock backwards (or a Foster slug), the heavy nose wants to lead the rest of the bullet in the direction of travel towards the target.

Stay safe.
 
I can see how a rubber conveyor belt, esp. one that is hung without a hard backer would act as described, slowing the bullet without allowing penetration. If the conveyor belt would have been tacked to a solid wood wall or fence post the wad cutters would have had a better chance of penetrating it.

Regarding hollow base wad cutters: Anyone running a HBWC loaded normally with the hollow base down in the case to much faster than 800 fps by using over max load in most manuals, is running a severe risk of having the skirt tear from the bullet leaving a bore obstruction as it can expand too tightly in the bore.

Loading the HBWC upside down to make an improvised hollow point may work but in my experience trying this using Speers 148gr HBWC's I couldn't get the bullet to stabilize and they key-holed badly even at short ranges like 10 yds. Maybe using a gas check over the front nose of the bullet would have solved the problem but at that time I was a new hand loader and had no source of gas checks.

Now Speer has lead SWCHP 158gr available for the hand loader as does Hornady that loads and shoot with stability and accuracy like standard SWC's. So there's no need to bother with trying to make HBWC's work as makeshift hollow points.
 
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Steve C said:
I can see how a rubber conveyor belt, esp. one that is hung without a hard backer would act as described, slowing the bullet without allowing penetration. If the conveyor belt would have been tacked to a solid wood wall or fence post the wad cutters would have had a better chance of penetrating it.

Regarding hollow base wad cutters: Anyone running a HBWC loaded normally with the hollow base down in the case to much faster than 800 fps by using over max load in most manuals, is running a severe risk of having the skirt tear from the bullet leaving a bore obstruction as it can expand too tightly in the bore.

Loading the HBWC upside down to make an improvised hollow point may work but in my experience trying this using Speers 148gr HBWC's I couldn't get the bullet to stabilize and they key-holed badly even at short ranges like 10 yds. Maybe using a gas check over the front nose of the bullet would have solved the problem but at that time I was a new hand loader and had no source of gas checks.

Now Speer has lead SWCHP 158gr available for the hand loader as does Hornady that loads and shoot with stability and accuracy like standard SWC's. So there's no need to bother with trying to make HBWC's work as makeshift hollow points.
Click to expand...
The belt material is screwed to the wood 4x4 frame all around, these last for hundreds (if not thousands) of shots before they’re a tattered mess in the center and need replacing. There are several gravel pits nearby so the sheriffs office can get tons of the stuff when the pit swaps out the old ones.

These target loads just didn’t have the juice to penetrate the rubber like the other rounds I shot that day (158gr LSWC .38’s over 4.5 gr Unique and 158 gr extreme plated hp over 6.5 Bullseye in .357 cases), instead they bounced right off.

I’ve been shooting at this range monthly for the past 13 years, this is the first time I’ve seen centerfire handgun rounds bounce off the stuff... which is why I put up the post about my doubts about the target (700 fps) 148 gr WC load as a defensive round. (Small birdshot also shallowly penetrates or bounces off, buck and slugs won’t.)

A good 148 gr DEWC at 1,000? Those I’ll have no issue with. They’ll punch through the stuff easily.

Stay safe.
 
I totally agree with the people who say a conveyer belt is not a good test medium for what a bullet will do to flesh.
I used to do a sternal rub to Overdosed patients. It often times brought them back to consciousness.
Even if the bullet doesn't break the sternum will shut down most people.
Besides, with the non existent recoil of wadcutter loads, you'll get an entire cylinder on target faster and for me it's about the number of holes with ccw guns.

Edit to add, I carry a 380 with 8 rounds of xtps. I think slow wadcutter is better than fast round nose.
 
Riomouse911 said:
While shooting the 4” 66-1 today I shot a few cylinders of Berry’s 148 gr HBWC over .2.8 gr Bullseye for fun.

The B-27 targets were stapled onto conveyor belt material, the rubber/corded stuff that’s about 30” wide and 5/8” thick.

After a few shots I thought I saw a cricket running across the pavement. One or two shots later I realized the bullets were either sticking into the paper or were bouncing off the backer and dropping onto the ground. I reloaded and fired six into the upper left corner to see what was going on.

To put it bluntly, these rounds had zero oomph. Even standard velocity .38 or .380 pass through the rubber without issue.

I know some folks rely on these loads to defend themselves, and they’re better than a sharp stick for sure, but if physical necessity isn’t an issue with the user I’ll suggest strongly that folks use something with more horsepower to defend their lives with and leave target wadcutters for punching paper.

Just an observation...

View attachment 868305

One HBWC bullet stayed forward, the second did a 180. Four bounced off. Both of these bullets were stuck in the 5 layers of targets.

View attachment 868307

When I pulled the paper, the wadcutters left circular marks at the upper left. The other holes at right are from 9mm (right) and the cluster at the top is from .223.

View attachment 868306

Some of the wadcutters that bounced off the conveyor belt material fell at the feet of the target stand. Others were scattered only a few feet further out.

Stay safe.
Click to expand...

One of the problems is the Plated bullets have a lot less velocity than standard lead mainly due to friction. A few years ago I tried Berrys and Xtreme Plated bullets because everyone said how clean they were to load and shoot. The Berrys HBWC and DEWC were running about 100fps slower than regular lead wadcutters with 2.8-3gr of Bullseye. Accuracy was terrible as well. Did some research and jacked up the charge to 3.5gr and they shot much better. I also shot some Xtreme 158gr THP loaded over 3gr of Bullseye and started having squids! They wouldn't even get out of my 8" Barrel. They were sticking in the barrel around 1/2" from the muzzle! Again jacked up the charge and they shot decent. Have since gone to coated lead and they shoot as clean and are as accurate as regular lead.
As far as defense bullet, I think the wadcutter at around 800fps would make a decent sd load. Might not be the best bullet choice, but would certainly be deadly. Not sure if still true today but just a few years ago, more people were killed with .22:LR than any other bullet. I still say the best self defense bullet is the one you can shoot the best. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a 44 mag.
 
The reversed HBWC worked well. When it worked. I experimented with them in the 70s and lost hope in their reliability.

Conveyor belt material is much different than ballistics gel which is the standard. A factory target wad cutter gives adequate penetration in that test media.

Jim Cirillo did extensive research in looking for the "perfect" bullet. I don't have his expertise or experience but most of his bullet designs were a wadcutter.

I still carry a factory wad cutter in a J frame.
 
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Eddietruett said:
One of the problems is the Plated bullets have a lot less velocity than standard lead mainly due to friction. A few years ago I tried Berrys and Xtreme Plated bullets because everyone said how clean they were to load and shoot. The Berrys HBWC and DEWC were running about 100fps slower than regular lead wadcutters with 2.8-3gr of Bullseye. Accuracy was terrible as well. Did some research and jacked up the charge to 3.5gr and they shot much better. I also shot some Xtreme 158gr THP loaded over 3gr of Bullseye and started having squids! They wouldn't even get out of my 8" Barrel. They were sticking in the barrel around 1/2" from the muzzle! Again jacked up the charge and they shot decent. Have since gone to coated lead and they shoot as clean and are as accurate as regular lead.
As far as defense bullet, I think the wadcutter at around 800fps would make a decent sd load. Might not be the best bullet choice, but would certainly be deadly. Not sure if still true today but just a few years ago, more people were killed with .22:LR than any other bullet. I still say the best self defense bullet is the one you can shoot the best. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a 44 mag.
Click to expand...

You are correct. I didn't even think about the OP using plated bullets. My Speer manual #14 doesn't even show jacketed loads for a 38 special loading because of the low pressure and the possibility of sticking a bullet in the bore. And that light target load is asking for that to happen. If anyone bothered to read the link to CE Harris I posted he stated new BE powder is not up to the old BE powder and needed a little more to equal the same speed. I bet those loads were less than 600fps from a snubby revolver.

If you look at the picture in the OP one bullet is stuck with the base out and one with the nose out and base forward. How strange?
 
Ratshooter said:
My Speer manual #14 doesn't even show jacketed loads for a 38 special loading because of the low pressure and the possibility of sticking a bullet in the bore.
Click to expand...

Or a jacket.
A guy here didn't want to get his gun all dirty with nasty old lead wadcutters, but he wanted a light target load. So he loaded up some 158 gr Speer JSP with a pinch of powder as listed for HBWC. (Sorry, I don't remember the load.)
That was fine for a while until he stuck a jacket. The core actually hit the target and the ear plugs kept out the odd report, so he pulled the trigger again. And again for the rest of the afternoon. He did not notice anything amiss until he cleaned the gun and felt the patch jump.
We went back to the range and dug in the berm. We found the core, and the jacket packed full of target paper and backer cardboard, with the base dished in by the nose of the following shot. We even found the bullet from the following shot with its exposed lead nose formed to a perfect fit to the base of the jacket.

S&W replaced the barrel for a modest fee.
 
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