Pre 1899 guns and replicas of pre 1899 guns.

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As most of us are aware, certain guns made prior to 1899 are not regulated and do not required an FFL...

What I am unclear of is Replica guns that are say made this year and are new but is a replica of a pre 1899 gun.

Such as a Pietta 1851 Navy BP Cap and ball replica?
 
If they shoot self contained ammo they are regulated. Just bought a Uberti manufactured Colt 1872 "open top" in .38 special, had to fill out the Fed and state forms and go thru the backround check.

On the other hand, a replica of a cap and ball revolver or muzzle loader is not regulated and does not require a background check.
 
My understanding is that muzzleloaders are not considered firearms, but guns that use currently available ammunition and were manufactured on or after 1898 are. There are possibly exceptions for guns never involved in interstate commerce etc but possessing the ammunition can also be a problem. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rearms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions Internet expertise, however well intentioned, can have unhappy results.
 
My understanding is that muzzleloaders are not considered firearms, but guns that use currently available ammunition and were manufactured on or after 1898 are.
1. The dividing line is pre-1899 versus post-1898. Anything made pre-1899, including cartridge guns (but excluding certain NFA weapons), is considered an antique and therefore not regulated.
2. For post-1898 guns, the ignition system (and not whether the gun is muzzleloading or breechloading) controls. Post-1898 cartridge guns are considered "modern" and thus regulated, while those with percussion, flintlock, etc. ignition are "antiques" and not regulated. For example, a currently-made Sharps breechloader that uses percussion caps is an unregulated "antique," whereas a currently-made Spencer breechloader that uses cartridges is "modern" and regulated.
 
The actual statute is here.
The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) defines the term "antique firearm" as follows:

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica— (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
 
I read the ATF rule ad got confused. What I am mostly confused about is how REPLICA Firearms of Pre 1899 fall into the law. Such as a cap and ball revolver. I know replica muzzleloader and flintlocks are ok. But what about cap and ball BP revolvers?

which brings me to another question. BTW I am in Texas.

How do these type of firearms play into account with a states open carry or concealed carry laws? Texas has no law as I can tell in regards to guns prior to 1898 or replicas.
In regards to cap and ball BP revolvers.
 
In federal law, yes. Your state may have its own ideas.
Eeeeyup.

I can order a Uberti repro of a Colt 1851 cap & ball revolver and UPS will drop it on my front door stoop, ring the doorbell, and trot off back to his heated truck and drive off.
Now, if I load it, stuff it in a holster and go out on the town, the local police will treat me in accord to the local law in the same way as if I was carrying a Glock 19 or Sig Sauer or S&W .357 magnum. If I'm legal with the Glock....fine....if I'm not, the police will stop me --- but they will also stop me if I'm carrying that 1851 repro.
The only difference will likely be a degree of wonderment on the part of the cops as to why I'm carrying an antique style weapon. They will still treat me like I'm carrying a deadly weapon, because that's what a Colt 1851 Navy revolver is.
 
I read the ATF rule and got confused. What I am mostly confused about is how REPLICA Firearms of Pre 1899 fall into the law. Such as a cap and ball revolver. I know replica muzzleloader and flintlocks are ok. But what about cap and ball BP revolvers?
Read boom boom's excerpt from the law, above. A cap and ball revolver would be covered by subparagraph (B) and not (C). For purposes of subparagraph (B), a gun doesn't have to be muzzleloading as long as it doesn't use fixed ammunition (cartridges) and is a "replica" of a gun actually made before 1899. That includes the bulk of blackpowder arms being made today. Subparagraph (C) applies to muzzleloaders that are new designs (i.e., that were not made prior to 1899). The last sentence of the excerpt applies to subparagraph (C) only.
 
In Illinois, EVERYTHING is a firearm including some air rifles. If it is a handgun, three days waiting period. One for a long gun.
 
In Illinois, EVERYTHING is a firearm including some air rifles. If it is a handgun, three days waiting period. One for a long gun.
Since, under federal law, a cap and ball revolver is a non-gun, it seems that an Illinois resident could travel to another state, buy the revolver, and bring it home. Thereby circumventing the waiting period. His possession and carrying, thereafter, would be subject to Illinois law.
 
I was a Civil War reenactor and black powder enthusiast for many years. I've known plenty of people who owned (and shot) muzzle loading Enfield and Springfield rifles and Army/Navy/Dragoon cap and ball revolvers, both original and reproduction. No FFL was ever needed to purchase one. The only people I ever met while renacting who had to go through an FFL for anything were those who had reproduction Henrys and Spencers.
 
I was a Civil War reenactor and black powder enthusiast for many years. I've known plenty of people who owned (and shot) muzzle loading Enfield and Springfield rifles and Army/Navy/Dragoon cap and ball revolvers, both original and reproduction. No FFL was ever needed to purchase one. The only people I ever met while renacting who had to go through an FFL for anything were those who had reproduction Henrys and Spencers.



Yes. I too have purchased repros of 19th century lever-actions. They're cartridge guns and if you buy them from an FFL you will fill out the 4473 and run through nics .... or have a license check if your state provides that method.
 
State laws vary, but in certain states, once you load a muzzle loader handgun, it falls under the same rules as any other handgun.
Here in good old NY State, muzzle-loading long guns are not regulated. Flintlock or percussion pistols and cap-and-ball revolvers can be kept as collector's items, but if you possess any one of the components necessary to make them fire -- powder, cap, or ball -- you have to have a pistol permit and you have to register the gun. You don't have to actually load it -- just possess the components. That's for originals and replicas.
 
Yes. I too have purchased repros of 19th century lever-actions. They're cartridge guns and if you buy them from an FFL you will fill out the 4473 and run through nics .... or have a license check if your state provides that method.

Same here. Also reproduction Colt and Remmington SAA cartridge pistols. They require an FFL transfer.
 
In Illinois, EVERYTHING is a firearm including some air rifles. If it is a handgun, three days waiting period. One for a long gun.
As of this year, it's now three days wait for ALL guns in IL. And yes, any air gun over .177 cal is lawfully considered a firearm under IL law (and any caliber airgun that can exceed 700 fps is also). In theory, you are required to show your FOID card to even by a box of .22 pellets. Black powder and antique guns are considered firearms in IL regardless of actual year of production. But still no AWB, Hi Cap Mag ban or ban on private sales despite the fact that everyone already thinks we have these prohibitions in place. It has been my experience that some retailers will ship replica/modern black power guns to Illinois addresses if the buyer provides a FOID card to them. I am not sure that the law actually prohibits this practice but I don't know that it has addressed it clearly either.
 
As of this year, it's now three days wait for ALL guns in IL. And yes, any air gun over .177 cal is lawfully considered a firearm under IL law (and any caliber airgun that can exceed 700 fps is also). In theory, you are required to show your FOID card to even by a box of .22 pellets. Black powder and antique guns are considered firearms in IL regardless of actual year of production. But still no AWB, Hi Cap Mag ban or ban on private sales despite the fact that everyone already thinks we have these prohibitions in place. It has been my experience that some retailers will ship replica/modern black power guns to Illinois addresses if the buyer provides a FOID card to them. I am not sure that the law actually prohibits this practice but I don't know that it has addressed it clearly either.

Wow. So how easy or difficult is it to obtain an FOID?
 
A related question that I’ve always wondered about deals w/ conversion cylinders. I can have a cap and ball revolver sent to my house, I know that. But when I add a cartridge conversion cylinder it becomes a “firearm”. Is the cylinder the serialized part? (Similar to an AR lower). Does it have to go through an FFL? If not, it seems like an easy way to circumvent the law for those in the know. (Criminals are generally not known for being too smart. And it’d also be easier to steal, or buy a stolen, firearm.)

Wyman
 
A related question that I’ve always wondered about deals w/ conversion cylinders. I can have a cap and ball revolver sent to my house, I know that. But when I add a cartridge conversion cylinder it becomes a “firearm”. Is the cylinder the serialized part? (Similar to an AR lower). Does it have to go through an FFL? If not, it seems like an easy way to circumvent the law for those in the know. (Criminals are generally not known for being too smart. And it’d also be easier to steal, or buy a stolen, firearm.)

Wyman

I'm interested in hearing what the legalities of this are as well. In my completely layman, uneducated understanding, if you are not a prohibited person you can build your own gun but according to federal law it cannot be transferred to anyone else without serializing and going through the FFL process. Thus so long as these conversion cylinders are for your own use and only yours, you are not violating federal law (applicable state laws are another matter).

Is this incorrect?

ETA- in the case of a percussion revolver that is converted to fire commonly available fixed ammunition and destined to be legally transferred to another party, the frame serial number of the revolver is used. (Again, this is my speculation only and not grounded in actual legal citation).
 
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A percussion revolver, federally, is not a firearm. A cartridge conversion cylinder, by itself, is also not a firearm (and is not serialized). You can buy these two components separately and there is no federal regulation. You can even buy the components from the same vendor, and as long as they're shipped to you unassembled, the components are still not "firearms."

When you put them together, the combination becomes a "firearm." But when you go to sell, if you separate the components, they revert to being "non-firearms."

Criminal misuse of percussion revolvers with conversion cylinders has not been a problem, for the simple reason that such combinations are not very effective for criminal purposes, and criminals can get their hands on more effective weapons just as easily.

I can't speak to state laws on the subject since they vary so widely. Most states, however, generally follow the federal law on this. There are exceptions.
 
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