Sighting 30-06 4" high at 100 or 320 yard zero for deer

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Casefull said:
Most missed shots are high. People tend to overestimate how far away the animal is. I think anything over 2 inches at 100 is asking for shots over the back.
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Not if POA is heart and lower lungs. +3"/100yds and +5/200yds will still be in the vitals and generally dropping in to zero at about 300yds.
 
One of the realities missing from this discussion is that shots seldom hit where we want, ie if our built in wiggle is plus or minus 4 inches at 200 yds, which is not much for an offhand shot then you have to add that 4 inches to the + 5 you are quoting in your example. Now you are potentially 8 inches high and much closer to shooting over the back. Then you have animals above or below like they are in the mountains and that also adds to the hitting higher than normal for a horizontal shot. Obviously any amount can be compensated for.
 
If you can get closer, do it. If you can get steadier, do it. If you can get closer and steadier...

Who says this is all offhand? I lean on a tree and shoot across sticks. Another guy might shoot across his ruck. Yet another guy might shoot across his deer stand's rail or the seat of his ATV. Lots of possibilities.
 
mustanger98 said:
If you can get closer, do it. If you can get steadier, do it. If you can get closer and steadier...

Who says this is all offhand? I lean on a tree and shoot across sticks. Another guy might shoot across his ruck. Yet another guy might shoot across his deer stand's rail or the seat of his ATV. Lots of possibilities.
Click to expand...
I actually know I guy who will wait for stuff to walk in or out to EXACTLY the yardage hes got the come ups memorized for...its annoying sitting on the range finder waiting for something to stop at exactly the right spot, especially when its inside of my hold and shoot range, or the terrain is sneakable.
 
Casefull said:
Most missed shots are high. People tend to overestimate how far away the animal is. I think anything over 2 inches at 100 is asking for shots over the back .
Click to expand...

Or a hit above the lungs but below the spine...:confused:

Old Axiom taught to Soldiers and Marines using iron sights on battle rifles "back in the day"...

"When looking at the target and the ground in between is visible, the untrained man will over estimate the distance to the target, and when looking at the target and the ground in between is not visible, the untrained man will under estimate the distance to the target."
So in most cases one tends to over estimate, but..., say it's sunrise, if you're shooting from one rise to another, and the depression between the sunlit tops of the rise you're on and the one where the deer is standing is in darkness or deep shadow, you will tend to under estimate the distance.

We are fortunate in our present times, when there are lots of not too expensive options in both reticles and adjustable scopes (not to mention laser range finders) that we are not hampered by the limitation of the "old school" and can get pretty good handle on the distance to the game, and in so doing be more responsible shots.:thumbup:

LD
 
Well...

Growin' up, the Great Jack O'Connor pontificated both shooting a scoped .270 WCF, and sightin' it in at +3" @100 yards.

For my 150 gr. loads, that gives me roughly +3/ +2/ -4/ -18, for 100/ 200/ 300/ 400 yards.

Which is great for Western hunting.


But as I still hunt woods more that plains hunt these days, I have re-zeroed my rifles to +2" @100 yards.

That gives me roughly a 200 yard zero, +2/ 0/ -8/ -24, for those 100/ 200/ 300/ 400 yards.

And it hits 3" low at 250 yards, which is my MPBR(6"), and a long shot generally at that.

Past that, range estimation gets to be more important than ballistics. If I get the range right, the hold-over is still easy.




GR
 
Loyalist Dave said:
That's always been The Big IF...from the time of the longrifle and the American War of Independence unto this very day. ;) :thumbup:

LD
Click to expand...

I remember reading that when Billy Dixon and Quanah Parker met years after the second battle of Adobe Walls (TX), Parker commented on Dixon's long shot... he used a buffalo rifle and hit a Comanche at nearly a mile. Dixon said he didn't think he could do it again. OTOH, during the American Revolution, Timothy Murphy killed a British general from 300yds using a long rifle... hit him three times where he sat on his horse. I never read where Murphy attempted a shot like that after that battle in New York. Two different men and rifles in different times and places. But, in each case, it worked that time.
 
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Here’s my argument when guys start talking about HUGE boundaries for defining MPBR, or talking about 300+ yard zeroes...

Ok, let’s start with this premise - zero at 320, giving a trajectory peaking 5.7” above LOS. Seems reasonable, aim relatively low on the deer, and anywhere from 0-320yrds the POI won’t be high enough to miss anything important - or do you pretend.

First - let’s have a frank conversation about how that really works for establishing your 320 yard zero. Most guys don’t shoot small enough groups from hunting rifles to zero at 320, so they use some short range proxy and a calculated trajectory. So you propose shooting at 100, 4” high. So now we have to consider the integrity of our proxy zero - does 4” high at 100 really correspond to a 320 yard zero? Does it REALLY correspond to a peak of 5.7” as proposed? How sensitive is this to changes in density altitude? How sensitive is this to ammunition velocity changes? In under a minute with a ballistic app and one of my personal 30-06 loads, I tweaked my speed and density altitude and showed a 4” high at 100 yards plan might be anything from 300-325 yards zero, and might peak as high as 6.5”.

Equally, do you shoot well enough to establish a 4.0” offset at 100yrds? If you’re shooting 3 shots at 100 yards and pretending you have an accurate offset, you’re lying to yourself. A difference in 4.0 and 4.2” is 15 yards difference in POI at the long end.

Let’s also not pretend we’re able to perfectly identify the location of the animal’s heart at 200-300+ yards. Throw a 3-9x on your rifle with a 1/4moa crosshair, and a guy might be lucky to hold within +/-2”, even 3”. That’s before we even start talking about wobble zone size from common field positions.

Saving the most critical for last - most hunters who choose these easy rules of thumb are also the same hunters who can’t shoot for schidt. We’re likely talking about 1.5moa at best from a field position at 100 yards, and 2-3moa, at best, at 200-300. So at that “about 190 yards,” where your impact is “about 5.7” high,” we’re talking about HALF of your impacts hitting above 5.7”, some of which hitting 7.7” - which, again, is little more than a wild ass guess, since, as I described above, that “about 5.7” high” game might really be 6.5”, plus half of our group size, and we’re off POA by 8.5” - which has a 2-3” error margin in itself, so our “shot at the heart” might miss by over 10”.

I have never had so little respect for any game animal that I was ok with the notion of throwing a bullet, not knowing where within 10” my bullet will really land.

It’s not so difficult nor burdensome to establish a more responsible zero and establish a mapping strategy to establish a FAR more ethical congruence between our POA and POI. Grab a 100 yard zero, have your LRF at the ready to establish a range map, and know your drops. You’ll still fight POA placement and you’ll still fight gross group size, but at least you won’t be fudging a ~12” scribble box onto a deer’s vitals.

I find too many deadheads each season after rifle season, and I see too many “experienced hunters” in rifle classes who can’t shoot worth a damn to ignore all of these facts. Guys think they missed cleanly because they didn’t find blood, and they go about their day - while a high paunch shot deer runs away to rot from the inside out, and die slowly and painfully.

I’m not saying I have ANY issue with responsible, skilled, and practiced marksmen taking 300 yard shots on game, even twice that, but I’ve met seldom few folks who match that description who mess around with ridiculous strategies like the 320yrd zero proposed here.
 
@Varminterror my MPBR sighting of my .308 hunting rifle is just a base line for me. It doesn't replace my small sized dope chart I created in excel for my load. On a longer shot over 250 yards, I can dial in my scope in accordance to my verified dope chart. But the difference in 3" +/- over 226 yards with the knowledge of what the bullet is doing within that yardage has worked for me. I look at my +2.75" zero at 100 yards as a baseline for my zero allowing fewer turns of the elevation dial when needed. But when one knows what the trajectory is within the 226 yard MPBR, one can easily hold + or - a few inches to make a shot. I do not consider this unethical on big game in the least, on smaller game and varmints one must shrink his/her MPBR target size.

This also does not preclude one from verifying drop and accuracy at different ranges at the range ahead of hunting. Personally, one should make time to make a more accurate assessment of angle of shot and distance than pinpoint accuracy, JMHO. But I'm hunting out west where angle of shot, and line of sight distances can play heck on a person without verifying distances.
 
Varminterror said:
Here’s my argument when guys start talking about HUGE boundaries for defining MPBR, or talking about 300+ yard zeroes...

Ok, let’s start with this premise - zero at 320, giving a trajectory peaking 5.7” above LOS. Seems reasonable, aim relatively low on the deer, and anywhere from 0-320yrds the POI won’t be high enough to miss anything important - or do you pretend.

First - let’s have a frank conversation about how that really works for establishing your 320 yard zero. Most guys don’t shoot small enough groups from hunting rifles to zero at 320, so they use some short range proxy and a calculated trajectory. So you propose shooting at 100, 4” high. So now we have to consider the integrity of our proxy zero - does 4” high at 100 really correspond to a 320 yard zero? Does it REALLY correspond to a peak of 5.7” as proposed? How sensitive is this to changes in density altitude? How sensitive is this to ammunition velocity changes? In under a minute with a ballistic app and one of my personal 30-06 loads, I tweaked my speed and density altitude and showed a 4” high at 100 yards plan might be anything from 300-325 yards zero, and might peak as high as 6.5”.

Equally, do you shoot well enough to establish a 4.0” offset at 100yrds? If you’re shooting 3 shots at 100 yards and pretending you have an accurate offset, you’re lying to yourself. A difference in 4.0 and 4.2” is 15 yards difference in POI at the long end.

Let’s also not pretend we’re able to perfectly identify the location of the animal’s heart at 200-300+ yards. Throw a 3-9x on your rifle with a 1/4moa crosshair, and a guy might be lucky to hold within +/-2”, even 3”. That’s before we even start talking about wobble zone size from common field positions.

Saving the most critical for last - most hunters who choose these easy rules of thumb are also the same hunters who can’t shoot for schidt. We’re likely talking about 1.5moa at best from a field position at 100 yards, and 2-3moa, at best, at 200-300. So at that “about 190 yards,” where your impact is “about 5.7” high,” we’re talking about HALF of your impacts hitting above 5.7”, some of which hitting 7.7” - which, again, is little more than a wild ass guess, since, as I described above, that “about 5.7” high” game might really be 6.5”, plus half of our group size, and we’re off POA by 8.5” - which has a 2-3” error margin in itself, so our “shot at the heart” might miss by over 10”.

I have never had so little respect for any game animal that I was ok with the notion of throwing a bullet, not knowing where within 10” my bullet will really land.

It’s not so difficult nor burdensome to establish a more responsible zero and establish a mapping strategy to establish a FAR more ethical congruence between our POA and POI. Grab a 100 yard zero, have your LRF at the ready to establish a range map, and know your drops. You’ll still fight POA placement and you’ll still fight gross group size, but at least you won’t be fudging a ~12” scribble box onto a deer’s vitals.

I find too many deadheads each season after rifle season, and I see too many “experienced hunters” in rifle classes who can’t shoot worth a damn to ignore all of these facts. Guys think they missed cleanly because they didn’t find blood, and they go about their day - while a high paunch shot deer runs away to rot from the inside out, and die slowly and painfully.

I’m not saying I have ANY issue with responsible, skilled, and practiced marksmen taking 300 yard shots on game, even twice that, but I’ve met seldom few folks who match that description who mess around with ridiculous strategies like the 320yrd zero proposed here.
Click to expand...

This is an outstanding post of yours. Too bad we are all in a losing battle with marketing and advertising. The average hunter does not want to practice, thinks 200 rounds a year is more than enough to become a 600 yard distance hunter. Industry convinces him, just buy equipment to off set your lack of skills and ability.

For example, you really don't have to hit where you are aiming, just blast away, and your Weatherby does the rest.

lq4gQjf.jpg

And who needs a zero at distance, when you have a Weatherby?

U21sy9O.jpg

Industry caters to the wants, dreams, desires, biases, and down right laziness of the shooting community. Selling "flat shooting" as a substitute for having known zero's, and we have all seen it.

Just watch exercise commercials, which tout a good work out in 5 minutes or less! Great abs by eating high calorie, fatty foods! The couch potatoes who buy the equipment never use the stuff anyway. They are just buying a dream.
 
I sight in my .270 two inches high at one hundred yards. Two hundred yards is a long shot where I hunt. I hunt from an elevated stand and thus have a steady rest. I got it pretty good, especially when it's cold and there's a heater going and I'm drinking coffee sitting in a swivel boat seat reading a book and looking up every now and then and getting surprised when there's deer out there.
 
Varminterror said:
Here’s my argument when guys start talking about HUGE boundaries for defining MPBR, or talking about 300+ yard zeroes...

Ok, let’s start with this premise - zero at 320, giving a trajectory peaking 5.7” above LOS. Seems reasonable, aim relatively low on the deer, and anywhere from 0-320yrds the POI won’t be high enough to miss anything important - or do you pretend.

First - let’s have a frank conversation about how that really works for establishing your 320 yard zero. Most guys don’t shoot small enough groups from hunting rifles to zero at 320, so they use some short range proxy and a calculated trajectory. So you propose shooting at 100, 4” high. So now we have to consider the integrity of our proxy zero - does 4” high at 100 really correspond to a 320 yard zero? Does it REALLY correspond to a peak of 5.7” as proposed? How sensitive is this to changes in density altitude? How sensitive is this to ammunition velocity changes? In under a minute with a ballistic app and one of my personal 30-06 loads, I tweaked my speed and density altitude and showed a 4” high at 100 yards plan might be anything from 300-325 yards zero, and might peak as high as 6.5”.

Equally, do you shoot well enough to establish a 4.0” offset at 100yrds? If you’re shooting 3 shots at 100 yards and pretending you have an accurate offset, you’re lying to yourself. A difference in 4.0 and 4.2” is 15 yards difference in POI at the long end.

Let’s also not pretend we’re able to perfectly identify the location of the animal’s heart at 200-300+ yards. Throw a 3-9x on your rifle with a 1/4moa crosshair, and a guy might be lucky to hold within +/-2”, even 3”. That’s before we even start talking about wobble zone size from common field positions.

Saving the most critical for last - most hunters who choose these easy rules of thumb are also the same hunters who can’t shoot for schidt. We’re likely talking about 1.5moa at best from a field position at 100 yards, and 2-3moa, at best, at 200-300. So at that “about 190 yards,” where your impact is “about 5.7” high,” we’re talking about HALF of your impacts hitting above 5.7”, some of which hitting 7.7” - which, again, is little more than a wild ass guess, since, as I described above, that “about 5.7” high” game might really be 6.5”, plus half of our group size, and we’re off POA by 8.5” - which has a 2-3” error margin in itself, so our “shot at the heart” might miss by over 10”.

I have never had so little respect for any game animal that I was ok with the notion of throwing a bullet, not knowing where within 10” my bullet will really land.

It’s not so difficult nor burdensome to establish a more responsible zero and establish a mapping strategy to establish a FAR more ethical congruence between our POA and POI. Grab a 100 yard zero, have your LRF at the ready to establish a range map, and know your drops. You’ll still fight POA placement and you’ll still fight gross group size, but at least you won’t be fudging a ~12” scribble box onto a deer’s vitals.

I find too many deadheads each season after rifle season, and I see too many “experienced hunters” in rifle classes who can’t shoot worth a damn to ignore all of these facts. Guys think they missed cleanly because they didn’t find blood, and they go about their day - while a high paunch shot deer runs away to rot from the inside out, and die slowly and painfully.

I’m not saying I have ANY issue with responsible, skilled, and practiced marksmen taking 300 yard shots on game, even twice that, but I’ve met seldom few folks who match that description who mess around with ridiculous strategies like the 320yrd zero proposed here.
Click to expand...
I agree with most of what you wrote, but some people use a pbr properly.
You're supposed to shoot at the ranges you are confident in and adjust your zero to make the best of it.
I don't think the OP quite fits the mold we immediately jumped to.
 
For my purposes my MPBR works great. I know that I only have to aim slightly low (from 1-3”) in yardages from 125 to 200 to account for the above POA trajectory on my MPBR, anything else and it’s put it on the target and pull the trigger from 25 yards to 250 yards. Any shots farther then that and I’ll have plenty of time to reference my dope card and dial it in. I’m not target shooting for sub-Moa groups here, vitals on big game provide more than adequate window of opportunity for a shooter who has some skill.

Do I use this for precision rifles, no it has no purpose there but for quick decision making in the field on game that is closer than 200 yards works great.

Different strokes for different folks.

Ruger%20GSR%20-%20Hornady%20150gr%20Interlock%20-%202%2C740%20FPS.jpg
 
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mustanger98 said:
Timothy Murphy killed a British general from 300yds using a long rifle... hit him three times where he sat on his horse .
Click to expand...

Actually..., it may have been that Murphy fired three shots, the first two ranging General Fraser, with the third hitting him. Fraser was only hit once. Which is plausible. ;)
The only problem is that Murphy never made the claim that he fired the fatal shot, and only one source names Murphy as the actual shooter, claiming the info came from one of Murphy's sons (name not given)...more than 50 years after the incident. (The earliest eye witness source on record states it was an elderly man who fired the fatal shot...and Murphy wasn't elderly at that time.) Further..., several of the eye witness accounts mentions that as many as twelve riflemen opened fire on General Fraser...some firing several times...so that would mean at least fourteen rounds were fired with only one striking the target. A 7% hit rate when guessing hold over with very low, fixed, open iron sights. Now THAT sounds very plausible. :D
mustanger98 said:
...it worked that time.
Click to expand...
True, but a lot of luck was involved, no matter who actually fired the shot and the law-of-averages was also involved, so I don't think we want to rely on that much luck when placing the shot upon a deer, eh?

LD
 
Sometimes a shot a couple inches too high can be the difference between a quick kill and a tracking job. That's based on experience. I can adjust for range at long distance. I sight for 100 yards and have shot high with that zero at closer range.
 
Hey LD, I see what you're saying in post #68 regarding what's plausible about Timothy Murphy's story. If somebody only reads one account, and maybe it's a distortion... I've found it can take several accounts to bring the reality into better focus.

When I said "it worked that time", saying we don't want to rely on that much luck to shoot a deer was a big part of the point. As I said up-thread, if you can get closer, steadier, or both, do it. And, as I've noticed said many times, know your PBZ and how to use it properly.
 
Slamfire said:
This is an outstanding post of yours. Too bad we are all in a losing battle with marketing and advertising. The average hunter does not want to practice, thinks 200 rounds a year is more than enough to become a 600 yard distance hunter. Industry convinces him, just buy equipment to off set your lack of skills and ability.

For example, you really don't have to hit where you are aiming, just blast away, and your Weatherby does the rest.

View attachment 870999

And who needs a zero at distance, when you have a Weatherby?

View attachment 871000

Industry caters to the wants, dreams, desires, biases, and down right laziness of the shooting community. Selling "flat shooting" as a substitute for having known zero's, and we have all seen it.

Just watch exercise commercials, which tout a good work out in 5 minutes or less! Great abs by eating high calorie, fatty foods! The couch potatoes who buy the equipment never use the stuff anyway. They are just buying a dream.
Click to expand...

...and everyone's rifle "shoots less than an inch all day long".
 
Varminterror said:
Here’s my argument when guys start talking about HUGE boundaries for defining MPBR, or talking about 300+ yard zeroes...

Ok, let’s start with this premise - zero at 320, giving a trajectory peaking 5.7” above LOS. Seems reasonable, aim relatively low on the deer, and anywhere from 0-320yrds the POI won’t be high enough to miss anything important - or do you pretend.

First - let’s have a frank conversation about how that really works for establishing your 320 yard zero. Most guys don’t shoot small enough groups from hunting rifles to zero at 320, so they use some short range proxy and a calculated trajectory. So you propose shooting at 100, 4” high. So now we have to consider the integrity of our proxy zero - does 4” high at 100 really correspond to a 320 yard zero? Does it REALLY correspond to a peak of 5.7” as proposed? How sensitive is this to changes in density altitude? How sensitive is this to ammunition velocity changes? In under a minute with a ballistic app and one of my personal 30-06 loads, I tweaked my speed and density altitude and showed a 4” high at 100 yards plan might be anything from 300-325 yards zero, and might peak as high as 6.5”.

Equally, do you shoot well enough to establish a 4.0” offset at 100yrds? If you’re shooting 3 shots at 100 yards and pretending you have an accurate offset, you’re lying to yourself. A difference in 4.0 and 4.2” is 15 yards difference in POI at the long end.

Let’s also not pretend we’re able to perfectly identify the location of the animal’s heart at 200-300+ yards. Throw a 3-9x on your rifle with a 1/4moa crosshair, and a guy might be lucky to hold within +/-2”, even 3”. That’s before we even start talking about wobble zone size from common field positions.

Saving the most critical for last - most hunters who choose these easy rules of thumb are also the same hunters who can’t shoot for schidt. We’re likely talking about 1.5moa at best from a field position at 100 yards, and 2-3moa, at best, at 200-300. So at that “about 190 yards,” where your impact is “about 5.7” high,” we’re talking about HALF of your impacts hitting above 5.7”, some of which hitting 7.7” - which, again, is little more than a wild ass guess, since, as I described above, that “about 5.7” high” game might really be 6.5”, plus half of our group size, and we’re off POA by 8.5” - which has a 2-3” error margin in itself, so our “shot at the heart” might miss by over 10”.

I have never had so little respect for any game animal that I was ok with the notion of throwing a bullet, not knowing where within 10” my bullet will really land.

It’s not so difficult nor burdensome to establish a more responsible zero and establish a mapping strategy to establish a FAR more ethical congruence between our POA and POI. Grab a 100 yard zero, have your LRF at the ready to establish a range map, and know your drops. You’ll still fight POA placement and you’ll still fight gross group size, but at least you won’t be fudging a ~12” scribble box onto a deer’s vitals.

I find too many deadheads each season after rifle season, and I see too many “experienced hunters” in rifle classes who can’t shoot worth a damn to ignore all of these facts. Guys think they missed cleanly because they didn’t find blood, and they go about their day - while a high paunch shot deer runs away to rot from the inside out, and die slowly and painfully.

I’m not saying I have ANY issue with responsible, skilled, and practiced marksmen taking 300 yard shots on game, even twice that, but I’ve met seldom few folks who match that description who mess around with ridiculous strategies like the 320yrd zero proposed here.
Click to expand...

How true, though most of what you say applies to any hunting regardless of zero. I agree there are a lot of hunters that take shots they shouldn't or aren't capable of ensuring a clean kill.

In my case this particular rifle does shoot 3" groups at 300 yards with this load. I doubt I would take a 300 yard shot at a deer. Have only taken 1 at 200 yards. Otherwise 25-135.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
 
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