sage5907
Member
taliv, I know that PRS stands for Precision Rifle Series, what does HP stand for?
Why does the ZERO on a rifle change so much in a year?
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taliv, I know that PRS stands for Precision Rifle Series, what does HP stand for?
beeenbag
Member
This thread got me wondering. I’d used my 30-06 to hunt with 2 years ago, had it sighted in with a specific load. I since switched firearms for hunting. I’ve shot it a little bit over the last couple years but always with a new load or bullet so poi wasn’t my concern as much as groups. I never adjusted the scope since sight in for hunting 2 years ago. So I grabbed 3 of my hunting loads it was sighted in with long ago and walked out to the shooting table. The OL trusty ruger American with a redfield revolution 3x9 put all 3 shots right where the crosshairs were. No zero shift at all
sage5907
Member
Got it. I know that Varget is used by many PRS shooters using short cartridges. I also know that Varget is used by many high power target shooters using shorter cartridges which fits into the NRA high power and CMP group. I've tried Varget and it reminded me of IMR 4895.
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Sorry I haven't been up on real time here, had an electric fire here but all is well now.
Back to ZERO question.
I find that bull barrels & what I call WHIP barrels all do the same, zero moves, we just have to
expect it. But bumping the scope hard against the truck door before going into the woods hunting
left me with worry & when home it was 4" off at 100 yards.
Wondering??? Like my previous thread, would a $1000 scope have moved with the same impact?
This one is a leupold on a 45 cal Encore M/L
Back to ZERO question.
I find that bull barrels & what I call WHIP barrels all do the same, zero moves, we just have to
expect it. But bumping the scope hard against the truck door before going into the woods hunting
left me with worry & when home it was 4" off at 100 yards.
Wondering??? Like my previous thread, would a $1000 scope have moved with the same impact?
This one is a leupold on a 45 cal Encore M/L
I can understand that,
My WIFE talks to her rifle or handgun as much as she does any of us standing around while she shoots.
It really seems to work for her, at least she hasn't named them ----- yet.
The 7600 pump is more a LUCKY set up but the CZ, now that shouldn't move so much in a year.
The CZ is my FOX rifle & is a seasonal zero, which always has to be done over with all my notes
& tests showing I have SEVERAL loads it will fire with ease, really haven't tried a bullet it wouldn't
zero good with, just adjust the type powder or weight of powder.
I don't go for super scopes & presidential mounts, just good Leupolds & good mounts, not the walmart
stuff. I can afford such stuff but then I would be changing everything before long & that is not who I am.
I have never thought of it that way,,,, You are very likely onto the source it's self.
Lucky strike for me there.
A real trained SNIPER was here & when he first saw my range he said = You must have set your targets up high to
try & avoid the earth heat waves, except in more tech terms.
I really have them up high so the targets don't get in the way of shooting deer & foxes.
generally, a good whack on the bell of a $3000 scope and $400 mount is worth about .2 MILs which is under an inch but still a lot if you’re trying to hit 1/2” dots. I’ve never seen a good scope and mount move more than an inch or so. 4” is a lot.
The biggest factor in changes in a rifle's zero is stock warpage, due to stock moisture variations. As stock moisture changes, pressure against the barrel changes. I've free-floated many barrels and pillar-bedded actions to prevent moisture to vary point of impact.
We who seek accuracy may find that a bit of card stock wedged under the rifle barrel in the forend may give smaller groups and keep it there through the summer, but if not sighted-in just before hunting season, may not be correct. Even barrels that are free-floated during summer months can end up touching or change pressure as stock moisture changes in the fall. In fact, a barrel may be clear when given the "dollar-bill" test for free-floating, but during firing or pulled sideways under sling pressure, it can make contact with the stock. I don't consider a barrel free-floating unless there's AT LEAST 1/16" clearance. Just remember that, on a hunting rifle, the smallest groups aren't as important as consistent zero! Enough clearance so that sling-pressure doesn't create contact. That may require more than 1/16"!
I've changed my opinion on action bedding over the years and believe that it's advisable to pillar-bed actions instead of just laying them in an epoxy bed. I usually make pillars out of pieces of old barrels or similar-sized pieces of strong aluminum. Diameter should be at least 1/2" and the exterior should be exterior-grooved to provide better epoxy grip. If time isn't a factor, commercial pillars work great (but may be over-priced). I y rough-up my home-made pillars with a Moto-Tool cutting disk. The other things to remember is to coat metal (I use neutral-color shoe paste wax) to allow the barreled-actions to be removed after bedding and clean-up. Clean-up that includes assuring that recoil plates don't bottom-out on bedding, if you haven't provided (release compounded) sufficient tape under and on the muzzle-side of the plates. A MOTO-Tool and router bit can do it, if you're careful.
Hope this helps to cure your zero-wandering, wood-stocked rifles.
JP
We who seek accuracy may find that a bit of card stock wedged under the rifle barrel in the forend may give smaller groups and keep it there through the summer, but if not sighted-in just before hunting season, may not be correct. Even barrels that are free-floated during summer months can end up touching or change pressure as stock moisture changes in the fall. In fact, a barrel may be clear when given the "dollar-bill" test for free-floating, but during firing or pulled sideways under sling pressure, it can make contact with the stock. I don't consider a barrel free-floating unless there's AT LEAST 1/16" clearance. Just remember that, on a hunting rifle, the smallest groups aren't as important as consistent zero! Enough clearance so that sling-pressure doesn't create contact. That may require more than 1/16"!
I've changed my opinion on action bedding over the years and believe that it's advisable to pillar-bed actions instead of just laying them in an epoxy bed. I usually make pillars out of pieces of old barrels or similar-sized pieces of strong aluminum. Diameter should be at least 1/2" and the exterior should be exterior-grooved to provide better epoxy grip. If time isn't a factor, commercial pillars work great (but may be over-priced). I y rough-up my home-made pillars with a Moto-Tool cutting disk. The other things to remember is to coat metal (I use neutral-color shoe paste wax) to allow the barreled-actions to be removed after bedding and clean-up. Clean-up that includes assuring that recoil plates don't bottom-out on bedding, if you haven't provided (release compounded) sufficient tape under and on the muzzle-side of the plates. A MOTO-Tool and router bit can do it, if you're careful.
Hope this helps to cure your zero-wandering, wood-stocked rifles.
JP
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That is well thought out & , no doubt from a great deal of experience.
Per your insight, the CZ barrel is floating but with only the width of a playing card. Also of course the CZ 527 is a full length stock & beautiful, but
I have never disassembled it down to the action seated with the wood.
I would never change the stock since a very good friend sold me this rifle at his shop ,many years ago & he passed away
no more than a month later. I use it as a window or sniper rifle on fox out the back window more than anything else.
I would be willing to try -almost- anything to settle it down but like I have said here, I kind of like the challenge every year of seeing how
much it moved, then there is the small bore love of trying out new loads which this little set up can really drill.
Here is an insurance pic of it.View attachment 871254
Here is the Rem 7600 pump which will hold ZERO so far, with any scope on it.
Cheap set up, but from a new rifle we stripped it down to camo if homemade back about 1990 I guess.
It has a Nikon BDC in the pic I think.
Love that old rifle.
Cheap set up, but from a new rifle we stripped it down to camo if homemade back about 1990 I guess.
It has a Nikon BDC in the pic I think.
Love that old rifle.
Skylerbone
Member
That’s a Nikon Team Realtree APG if I’m not mistaken, bought two on clearance a few years back.
Back to rifles, bedding isn’t something that detracts from the rifle or changes the outward appearance of the stock in any way. What it will do is enhance its use ability, which IMO is a great way to honor the provenance of your rifle.
Back to rifles, bedding isn’t something that detracts from the rifle or changes the outward appearance of the stock in any way. What it will do is enhance its use ability, which IMO is a great way to honor the provenance of your rifle.
Bedding the rifle would be worth the effort if I could get a local to do it, I have ALWAYS had bad luck with getting good service from the
old [ mail it to me & I can fix it ] type deal.
Seems the local gunsmiths have limited tools of the trade or have a few are Masters at a couple of things & never tried the other.
Like I want a 45 L/C cylinder replaced & none can time it, I want chokes put in but none of the gunsmiths even know anyone nearby that
can do it. above all I have -2- rifles a Mauser & A Springfield 1903 that both have had some dummy do a HACK JOB on drilling & tapping
for scope mounts that I want corrected with only one attempt that went no better.
I am like 90% of the guys on here except I admit my ignorance or lack of skill in [SOME] of the tinkering we do & BEDDING a stock
properly would be a disaster for me to try, I believe it was Larry Potterfield that had a short vid on HOW TO & I don't trust myself
with a beautiful rifle.
Reminds me of one fellow who had a rifle here that had recently been BEDDED by a local smith & he said the odd thing was that the
barrel was glued tight to the stock, so there you go. That would be my luck, I know I need to find one with a GOOD reference.
Skylerbone
Member
If you’ve got two hours and really want to understand the process more thoroughly I’d recommend the following. Even if you never decide to attempt it you’ll know what to look for and, if you choose someone to do it for you, have them show you their work.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 1
Part 2
The first bedding job I did was back around 1959. There weren't any kits available back then, and the epoxy of choice was boat repair epoxy, which I used on my 1959 Savage 110, 30-06. I learned how to do it by reading gun magazines, including American Rifleman. I learned how to do it and how NOT to do it, before I started. The barrel was free-floated.
I was 16 yrs old at the time and did the work on the Bishop 90% finished blank that I bought, (which was really more like 40%). It turned out very well and the rifle shot MOA. Kits today are "almost" foolproof, as long as you read instructions carefully. I like to use clear shoe paste wax for a release compound because it's applied very thin and "releases" well. Masking tape works fine to cover trigger mechanisms, and (using multiple layers,) to provide clearance for the front, bottom, and sides of the recoil plate (very important). Use the release compound on sides and bottom of the recoil plate and its masking tape (clearance-covering).
The barrel should be free-floated almost full length, though about 2" ahead of the recoil plate helps accuracy by providing a longer bedded area and is located where the stock is stiff and vibrates very little. (I don't leave the magazine well on the receiver when bedding).
I was 16 yrs old at the time and did the work on the Bishop 90% finished blank that I bought, (which was really more like 40%). It turned out very well and the rifle shot MOA. Kits today are "almost" foolproof, as long as you read instructions carefully. I like to use clear shoe paste wax for a release compound because it's applied very thin and "releases" well. Masking tape works fine to cover trigger mechanisms, and (using multiple layers,) to provide clearance for the front, bottom, and sides of the recoil plate (very important). Use the release compound on sides and bottom of the recoil plate and its masking tape (clearance-covering).
The barrel should be free-floated almost full length, though about 2" ahead of the recoil plate helps accuracy by providing a longer bedded area and is located where the stock is stiff and vibrates very little. (I don't leave the magazine well on the receiver when bedding).
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IndianaBoy
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Some rifles will do this.
I have a Winchester Model 70 30-06 with a synthetic stock and it will put bullets from 145-185 to close enough the same POI that I can use all the ammo I have ever tried for hunting.
Others will shoot drastically different with different ammo or even different powder charges.
IndianaBoy
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As others have already stated. Wood stocks contract and swell with temperature, humidity, etc. It's just the nature of the beast.
I would go with a synthetic stock with a rigid pillar/chassis system to eliminate the issue.
Interestingly I have a Mauser that is quite consistent. But it lives in a gun safe with a goldenrod dehumidifier so it probably doesn't get a chance to change very much. Same thing for my CZ452 Lux.
I would go with a synthetic stock with a rigid pillar/chassis system to eliminate the issue.
Interestingly I have a Mauser that is quite consistent. But it lives in a gun safe with a goldenrod dehumidifier so it probably doesn't get a chance to change very much. Same thing for my CZ452 Lux.
sage5907
Member
If a rifle doesn't have a good barrel installing glass bedding or installing glass bedding with pillars may not improve the situation. If I have a rifle that should shoot better the first thing I do is to change the stock. eBay is a good source of rifle stocks and most of them are priced reasonable. Many rifle shooters have joined the composite stock craze which makes it easy to find a replacement wood stock. A rifle with a bad barrel will have many owners.
coloradokevin
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I'm not following that claim. Sure, mirage can become an issue when looking through a high magnification scope in certain conditions, but that doesn't do anything to change your zero. Usually if you back the magnification back to 10-12x or less the mirage won't really bother you. When mirage is a factor (due to terrain and atmospheric conditions) it's most significant at high magnifications and long distances. But, mirage is a double-edged sword, too: it can make your target appear blurry, but it's also a great way to read light to moderate winds.
mirage is a physical effect that happens between you and the target. people say things like "it's most significant at high magnifications" but in reality, it's the same at all magnifications, just easier to see. like saying the target is easier to see when you use higher magnification. sometimes you can see it with your naked eye. i find it easier to see with binoculars. and it's not that dependent on "long" distance either. i can remember shooting matches where the stage design was targets at 100 yards with pictures of playing cards and such, and the MD had to pull the targets in to like 70 yards because nobody could read them at 100 because the mirage was so bad. distance does make it more interesting though, as you can adjust your parallax to read mirage at different distances. e.g. it can be going one direction at 300 yards and another at 700.
but what the "real trained SNIPER" (lol) was presumably pointing out is that what really affects mirage is how far you are from the ground. if you're laying on the ground you'll typically get more mirage than if you're on a bench, or standing. get up on a roof and you won't see it nearly as well. if you and the targets are well off the ground, it will be greatly reduced.
i'm not following where the zero change came from. you're right mirage doesn't change your zero.
Captcurt
Member
I had a Ruger 77 in 270 that would shoot same POI with 130 gr or 150 gr until the wood warped. I floated the barrel and glass bedded the action but it wouldn't print the two weights the same after that.
I have a Savage 10 Sierra in 300 WSM that has not changed POI in the 20+ years that I have owned it. It will, however, shoot the first shot out of a cold clean barrel high and to the right. I always shoot a fouling shot the day before hunting.
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