358 Legend.

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mcb

mcb

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Yes 358 Legend not 350 Legend. So have you guys seen this? It made me chuckle.

https://www.kakindustry.com/kak-18-inch-mid-358-legend-barrel-stainless-steel

KAK is making barrels for a cartridge they call 358 Legend. It is a barrel with the correct bore and groove diameter for 35 caliber rifle bullets (.358) along with an appropriate throat but is otherwise chambered for 350 Legend. So you start with 350 Legend brass and reload it using velocity appropriate 358 rifle bullets.

Winchester sure bungled this bullet diameter thing...
 
Kind of like the 450 bushmaster using .452 diameter so manufacturers have to make bullets suitable for the higher velocities vs using standard pistol bullets, when they could have just used .458 from the start?

I think people will still buy it.
 
jmorris said:
Kind of like the 450 bushmaster using .452 diameter so manufacturers have to make bullets suitable for the higher velocities vs using standard pistol bullets, when they could have just used .458 from the start?

I think people will still buy it.
Click to expand...

Had Winchester simply used .357 bullets from the start it probably would have work and 358 Legend would not exist but it seems like the started wtih .355 and tried to change near the end to .357 and it has cause nothing but problems for reloaders. The spec is a mess and Winchester does not seem able to clean it up and thus it leaves room for such spin offs.
 
Just.....stop. Old performance is now new and cutting edge. We’ve been over this. But they just won’t stop. Give us something with performance that really brings something to the table. Or build affordable AR’s in the cartridges that do. It’s starting to get kinda ridiculous. But people will buy it because it’s new and they don’t know any better. Or maybe they do and they just want something new. Either way, they have the right to spend their greenbacks however they want.
 
Personally I think a cartridge like 350 Legend has merit and some interesting potential in the AR platform but Winchester has bungled it pretty badly. They really just needed to standardize and make a SAAMI cartridge out of one of the 357 AR Max wildcats and it would have been a fairly successful cartridge but with the propitiatory brass and all the mystery around bullet diameter it's floundering. If the brass could have been made from 223/556 and could have used 357 Mag/Max bullets it would have been a great cartridge but alas we have this mess. LOL
 
As a 357 maximum shooter I just have to say if you think it was a mistake in making it the wrong bore size because your missing out on all the great .357 and .358 bullets, you are wrong. I too am puzzled by the .355" bullet choice, but there wasn't any existing bullets on the market that would actually work well in the 350 legend anyway so its just as well they make something new. The only .358 jacketed bullet available that is even remotely close to a good choice for the 350 legend is the 180 grain speer hot core, and this bullet has had very spotty availability for years and is right about at the bottom of its expansion threshold in a 350 legend or 357 max. The 200 grain FTX would probably work okay but they are very expensive and 200 grains is getting very heavy for the case capacity. The revolver bullets on the market mostly turn inside out at the velocities these cartridges can achieve and are not shaped to feed well in an AR15. Hornady used to make a .357 180 grain single shot pistol bullet that would be perfect but these were discontinued long ago.

So anyway, there weren't any good bullet choices for it before. There are now a half dozen good bullets available for it that were designed specifically for it, so whats the issue? If you like the concept of the cartridge quit moaning and roll with it.
 
someguy2800 said:
As a 357 maximum shooter I just have to say if you think it was a mistake in making it the wrong bore size because your missing out on all the great .357 and .358 bullets, you are wrong. I too am puzzled by the .355" bullet choice, but there wasn't any existing bullets on the market that would actually work well in the 350 legend anyway so its just as well they make something new. The only .358 jacketed bullet available that is even remotely close to a good choice for the 350 legend is the 180 grain speer hot core, and this bullet has had very spotty availability for years and is right about at the bottom of its expansion threshold in a 350 legend or 357 max. The 200 grain FTX would probably work okay but they are very expensive and 200 grains is getting very heavy for the case capacity. The revolver bullets on the market mostly turn inside out at the velocities these cartridges can achieve and are not shaped to feed well in an AR15. Hornady used to make a .357 180 grain single shot pistol bullet that would be perfect but these were discontinued long ago.

So anyway, there weren't any good bullet choices for it before. There are now a half dozen good bullets available for it that were designed specifically for it, so whats the issue? If you like the concept of the cartridge quit moaning and roll with it.
Click to expand...

My criticism of the cartridge is not bullet availability. I am not much of a bullet snob and am sure I could have found a usable bullet in .355 or .357 or would have resized an appropriate to the needed size to make it work. My criticism is two fold, first they created a ton of confusion on the bullet diameter by first they say 9mm then they say .357 and we are left guessing since they now keep saying .357 but the first few batched of loaded ammo have had .355 bullets and those that try to reload .357 bullets have a bunch of issue with most 350 spec chambers. (Hence 358 Legend) The SAAMI spec is a mess and does not help settle this issue any either (see older thread on this cartridge for those details). Second the propitiatory cartridge. It's almost but not quit form-able from cheap 223/556 cases with very little good technical reasons for it not to have used 223/556 as the parent case. I could forgive the second but in light of the first it all seems like a cluster...
 
mcb said:
Had Winchester simply used .357 bullets from the start
Click to expand...

They did. The submitted spec to SAAMI is .357” bullets, and the bore specification is the same as any 35 caliber revolver designed for .358” bullets, such as .357mag.

This thing from KAK seems stupid to me. Even 35 caliber rifles, which traditionally use .358” bullets, have .357”/.349” bores.

I’ve been down this particular road far and long enough myself to realize this is a silly undertaking. We can complain there aren’t many .357” revolver bullets made to withstand ~2200fps cartridges behind them, but there also aren’t many .358” rifle bullets which will expand reliably at 350Legend impact velocities either. Neither one has a plethora of bullets to choose from, and being an odd-man in a growth-dependent game doesn’t make sense.

Edited to correct my incorrect self-correction...:confused:
 
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Varminterror said:
They did. The submitted spec to SAAMI is .357” bullets, in fact a LARGER bore specification as any 35 caliber revolver designed for .357” bullets, such as .357mag.

This thing from KAK seems stupid to me. Even 35 caliber rifles, which traditionally use .358” bullets, have .357”/.349” bores.

I’ve been down this particular road far and long enough myself to realize this is a silly undertaking. We can complain there aren’t many .357” revolver bullets made to withstand ~2200fps cartridges behind them, but there also aren’t many .358” rifle bullets which will expand reliably at 350Legend impact velocities either. Neither one has a plethora of bullets to choose from, and being an odd-man in a growth-dependent game doesn’t make sense.
Click to expand...

350 Legend, 9mm Luger and 357 Magnum all have the same nominal bore and groove diameter. Bore: .346, Grooves: .355. Now both 9mm Luger and 357 Magnum have +.004 tolerance on those dimension. The 350 Legend has only a +.002 on its nominal bore and groove.

Bullet diameters are list by SAAMI as:
9mm Luger: .3555
350 Legend: .3570
357 Magnum: .3580 (.3590 for lead)
All have a -.003 tolerance on the bullet diameter.

But if you look at minimal bore area in the SAAMI specs 350 Legend is the same as 9 Luger and both are smaller than 357 Mag. Seems if you intended it to use 9mm or 357 Mag bullets you would have used specs the same as your supposed bullet instead of this strange mixed selection of dimensions they choose. They also say .357 but we keep see reports of factory ammo measuring .355 and reloaders having throat issues when reloading with .357 bullets.

I like the idea of the cartridge I just am amused by how poorly implement it seems to be.
 
@mcb - I had originally typed “same bore diameter as,” but double checked the specs to confirm, and must have viewed the wrong cartridge, seeing a smaller spec bore, and changing my post - partially... forgot to replace “as” with “than” when I changed “same” to “larger.”

I can’t attest as to why Winchester came up with such arbitrary combination of specs, but the data is on the page - they spec’d a .357” bullet, and it eats .357” bullets.

The revolver-intended .357mag might spec a max .358”, but in my experience 1) very few revolvers will actually take a .358” jacketed bullet without distortion, and 2) not many AR’s or bolt guns have b/c gaps or forcing cones, such they wouldn’t benefit from a bullet so grossly oversized to the bore as a revolver will.

I’m not sure why guys like you keep ignoring the facts:

1) it’s spec’d for .357” bullets
2) Winchester has repeatedly stated it’s meant to be able to use .357” bullets
3) Thousands of reloaders have proven it’s capable of taking .357” bullets...

So what’s the point in bitching about minimum bore area spec and shouting from the rooftops that it was improperly designed? It’s an irrelevant distinction without a difference.
 
mcb said:
first they created a ton of confusion on the bullet diameter by first they say 9mm then they say .357
Click to expand...

This really isn’t accurate.

I can appreciate that a lot of internet rumors started flying around when the .350 Legend dropped, but “They,” being SAAMI and Winchester, the designers of the cartridge and the specification clearinghouse, NEVER said it was a .355”/9mm. The SAAMI spec has not changed since it dropped at SHOT, and any time someone calls Winchester to ask about .357” revolver bullets, they’re met with “.357” revolver bullets are what it was made to shoot.”

Guys lost their minds because the specification isn’t in line with other rifle or revolver cartridges, and because a bunch of guys pulled bullets and found smaller diameter bullets in factory ammo (I’ve seen a bunch reported as .351”, how many bullets have you ever seen in .351”?). But guys actually holding them in hand are doing fine with .357” revolver bullets - @LoonWulf has a thread going right now where he’s mentioning shooting .358” bullets - even .358” Speer HotCors which I know I have to draw down to .357” to shoot in .357 max or .357/44B&D.

Much ado about nothin’ - buy a Legend, feed it .355”-.358” bullets, and live happy.
 
Varminterror said:
@mcb - I had originally typed “same bore diameter as,” but double checked the specs to confirm, and must have viewed the wrong cartridge, seeing a smaller spec bore, and changing my post - partially... forgot to replace “as” with “than” when I changed “same” to “larger.”

I can’t attest as to why Winchester came up with such arbitrary combination of specs, but the data is on the page - they spec’d a .357” bullet, and it eats .357” bullets.

The revolver-intended .357mag might spec a max .358”, but in my experience 1) very few revolvers will actually take a .358” jacketed bullet without distortion, and 2) not many AR’s or bolt guns have b/c gaps or forcing cones, such they wouldn’t benefit from a bullet so grossly oversized to the bore as a revolver will.

I’m not sure why guys like you keep ignoring the facts:

1) it’s spec’d for .357” bullets
2) Winchester has repeatedly stated it’s meant to be able to use .357” bullets
3) Thousands of reloaders have proven it’s capable of taking .357” bullets...

So what’s the point in bitching about minimum bore area spec and shouting from the rooftops that it was improperly designed? It’s an irrelevant distinction without a difference.
Click to expand...

It is presently spec'ed for .357 but initially everyone included Winchester Representatives where initially calling in a 9mm rifle. I asked a Winchester Rep in the Winchester booth at NRA this year if it was going to use .355 bullets or .357 bullet, he said .355. Nearly all the factor ammo I have seen torn down the bullets measure 355 not 357. I have seen several reports of people attempting to reload 357 bullet into their 350 Legends only to have chambering issues due to throats being too tight for .357 bullets but working with .355 bullets. And to further support this we have KAK making barrel specifically for the larger bullets utilizing 350 Legend brass. I simply find it all amusing...
 
@mcb - you met a dumb rep then. I was also at NRAAM in Indy, asked the same question because of all of the confusion around the web which wasn’t matching up with what I saw at SHOT a couple months prior - specifically asking what bullet diameter they’re using in the factory ammo. “A new proprietary bullet” in the factory ammo, but “we made it for .357” revolver bullets.”

I’ve called since too, asking if they’re intending to issue new bullet products for reloaders in their unique diameter they seem to use in factory ammo - no, use .357” revolver bullets, you’ll be happy.

A LOT of bloggers regurgitated dimensions on the web, which I assume were measured from factory rounds, as they didn’t line up with the SAAMI spec.

Dumb reps happen, but it doesn’t change the specs.
 
Varminterror said:
@mcb - you met a dumb rep then. I was also at NRAAM in Indy, asked the same question because of all of the confusion around the web which wasn’t matching up with what I saw at SHOT a couple months prior - specifically asking what bullet diameter they’re using in the factory ammo. “A new proprietary bullet” in the factory ammo, but “we made it for .357” revolver bullets.”

I’ve called since too, asking if they’re intending to issue new bullet products for reloaders in their unique diameter they seem to use in factory ammo - no, use .357” revolver bullets, you’ll be happy.

A LOT of bloggers regurgitated dimensions on the web, which I assume were measured from factory rounds, as they didn’t line up with the SAAMI spec.

Dumb reps happen, but it doesn’t change the specs.
Click to expand...

Sure dumb happens but the spec as submitted to SAAMI is equally dumb, that minimum bore area is important and can't be ignored any more than the rest of the specs. It would be interesting to see Winchester's the bore and grove dimensions with tolerances and resulting bore area and the original chamber reamer specs Winchester is using. I would expect those tolerance to be much tighter than what is in the SAAMI spec.

I would also like more explanation on why the factor ammo is measuring .355. Its not just one yokel with a worn out pair of calibers. I have see a dozen or more posts and videos from various users measuring factory bullets and they nearly all get .355.

At this point it all academic to me I have no need for the cartridge despite my interest in it. My 450 Bushmaster and 300 BO cover all the uses I would have use the cartridge for. The 358 Legend just popped up in a feed and I found it amusing. I'm willing to sit back and see how this all pans out before I jump it at this point.
 
mcb said:
I'm willing to sit back and see how this all pans out before I jump it at this point.
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With all due respect - it doesn’t seem like you are. Most .350 Legend threads draw you out to comment about the wrong bullet choices and improper specs, pontificating on the tiny details, and ignoring firsthand accounts of folks shooting the bullets you say the specs suggest can’t be used.

Sit back and watch, that’s fine. But it’s not really fair to keep denigrating the round just for the fact you don’t care for the fine print of the SAAMI specs which may well be a simple symptom of the fact the Legend was designed and specified around 120 years more recently than its bore-mates, for a very different firearm design.
 
Varminterror said:
With all due respect - it doesn’t seem like you are. Most .350 Legend threads draw you out to comment about the wrong bullet choices and improper specs, pontificating on the tiny details, and ignoring firsthand accounts of folks shooting the bullets you say the specs suggest can’t be used.

Sit back and watch, that’s fine. But it’s not really fair to keep denigrating the round just for the fact you don’t care for the fine print of the SAAMI specs which may well be a simple symptom of the fact the Legend was designed and specified around 120 years more recently than its bore-mates, for a very different firearm design.
Click to expand...

I am a detail person and though I have resolved to wait on this cartridge I am not going to wait passively. Hence this thread. I am active in the discussions on the forums and have my opinions and give them out freely since that is about all they are worth. Thus is my nature and the nature of forums.
 
It is also the nature of forums to sit as a source of information, especially forums which allow themselves to be returned as google results, for would-be buyers researching a product. So my nature is to ensure those folks have appropriate counterbalance when mountains get made from molehills - especially imaginary ones.
 
If the brass could have been made from 223/556 and could have used 357 Mag/Max bullets it would have been a great cartridge but alas we have this mess.
Click to expand...

Playing with the 357 maximum awhile back I had that same thought run through my head. It’s not easy but the 223 can be opened back up to take a 375 bullet, needs to be blown out a bit though.

420E6B4F-0F39-4019-9537-2BDB789DC7DC.jpeg
 
jmorris said:
Playing with the 357 maximum awhile back I had that same thought run through my head. It’s not easy but the 223 can be opened back up to take a 375 bullet, needs to be blown out a bit though.

View attachment 871349
Click to expand...
Starline brass is actually selling 223 brass that has been taken out of the process before the neck is formed. The call it 223 Basic and sell it for guys playing with the various 223 based wildcats.

223-basic-web-t.png

https://www.starlinebrass.com/223-basic
 
Instead of making stuff up or believing internet rumors, here are the SAAMI specs for the .350 Legend. Yes, some claim different bullet diameter and bore size, but these are the voluntary specs. There should be no problem using appropriate 0.358” bullets as long as the loads are worked up. Or push them through a .356”-.357” Lee sizing die.

F959313A-EAE4-4053-9E9A-B19726A5112A

F959313A-EAE4-4053-9E9A-B19726A5112A

.350 Legend SAAMI
 
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