Swedish Mauser Model 1896 Question

Status
Not open for further replies.
I haven't forced it, but it seems it is not even possible to insert the tip of the cleaning rod in the muzzle.
Someone may have swapped cleaning rods--it could be for a 8x57 Mauser or you are confusing the knurled handle for a patch holder. The Swede cleaning kit had a bore brush/patch end in one of the tins and grease/oil in the other. I think that the threads on the end are not standard and at one time a conversion piece was sold. In general, cleaning rods are just there to look pretty as you can do better with commercial ones. The Swede 96 is 27.5 inches more or less long and the German, etc. 8x57 carbine cleaning rods are shorter by far in length and somewhat fatter in diameter.

Here is a picture from Liberty Collectors of a Swede 96 cleaning rod end--the knurled part is the handle that you inserted a short metal piece to use as a handle-it is not for a patch.

https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=60
DSC01079.jpg
 
The Swedish metallurgy was some of the best for the time, but being a pre-98, you have to be as concerned about a case head separation and the poor gas handling as you do about the lack of a third lug.
 
Okay, I absolutely confused the knurled end with that being the tip to hold a patch. It seems to make sense. Why would they go to the trouble to mill a slot--other than to allow for insertion of a patch?
 
Okay, I absolutely confused the knurled end with that being the tip to hold a patch. It seems to make sense. Why would they go to the trouble to mill a slot--other than to allow for insertion of a patch?

As the cleaning rod is screwed into a plate inside the stock, it would sometimes get stuck--you can insert a flat blade or flat tip screwdriver to unscrew it from what I remember.
 
I might have to look at 4831 again. You are the most recent of several people to say that IMR4831 is it. I can't recall what powder weight I was using with the 140 grs, but I was getting stiff bolt lifts and felt I was probably hot-rodding the Swede. After a lot of testing, I came out the other side with H4350 as "the powder". Think I'll look at 4831 again in the Spring.

Actually, that load was suggested to me on the firing line at Camp Perry. Another competitor saw my rifle, we talked for a few minutes, and he recommended that load. When I got home I did a ladder test and 44 seemed to fall in a node. It has performed well for me over the years.
 
Update, for what it's worth. I did receive my copy of "The Swedish Mauser Rifles" by Kehaya & Poyer. All serial numbers match, last 3 digits "241" except the rear sight "451". Did not disassemble to look at stock and barrel, however; stock is beech, which was the only wood used in 1915. Barrel stamped near muzzle, right side: M96 SWEDEN 6.5 x 55 and C. A. I. ST. ALBANS, VT. If I recall correctly, this firm imported excess military rifles in the '60's.

Looked a long time for this one. Oddly, another one with, what appears to be all matching numbers was auctioned today locally. MUCH rougher than mine. Both hammered at $350. With higher buyer's premium and FFL fees, mine cost $59.52 more than this one, and due to differing conditions, mine is worth at least that more.
 
Update, for what it's worth. I did receive my copy of "The Swedish Mauser Rifles" by Kehaya & Poyer. All serial numbers match, last 3 digits "241" except the rear sight "451". Did not disassemble to look at stock and barrel, however; stock is beech, which was the only wood used in 1915. Barrel stamped near muzzle, right side: M96 SWEDEN 6.5 x 55 and C. A. I. ST. ALBANS, VT. If I recall correctly, this firm imported excess military rifles in the '60's.

Looked a long time for this one. Oddly, another one with, what appears to be all matching numbers was auctioned today locally. MUCH rougher than mine. Both hammered at $350. With higher buyer's premium and FFL fees, mine cost $59.52 more than this one, and due to differing conditions, mine is worth at least that more.

Century International is still around today and still importing/selling mainly to dealers. At some point, I would carefully dismount the action. Unfortunately, some of these Mausers' receivers or sometimes barrels have significant pitting below the wood line and it is useful to know if that is the case. These were often shot in pretty bad conditions and can vary in their treatment over the years by armorers so a check would not be amiss. Just go slow and don't force anything and use the proper hollow ground screwdriver bits that just fit the slots to remove screws.

On these old rifles, it is useful to seal the barrel channels on the stock and handguard with boiled linseed oil (or other natural oils--tung, etc.) from time to time. Modern gun oils often soften and weaken stocks as well as cleaning solvents and wood dries out over time. Sealing the stock on a regular basis helps protect it and prevent cracking/splitting. It is useful to protect the bottom of the barrel/receiver with something like Renaissance Wax etc. I've also used Collector Breakfree CLP (has teflon in it) to protect rifles that I have no plans to refinish etc. Don't use it on something you plan to refinish, especially cold blue.

Century is also selling rear sight ladders for the Swede and some of these are unmarked replacement parts-easy replacement if the non-matching number bothers you. They also have Swede micrometer sights for these at a decent price which might be why yours is not matching. Look under gunparts at their website and they do sell parts and accessories to anyone, not just license holders. You have to be a license holder to get firearms or frames/receivers including a C&R for appropriate firearms.

From the pictures, you did good on price and condition and it will appreciate modestly if left in original condition.
 
The unmatched ladder sight is not problematic. I will leave it as it is. I was just surprised that it was replaced, given the rest of the gun is matching and in good condition. Given the gun is in good condition relative to many others I have seen, I am not going to rush to disassemble it now although I cannot rule out doing so in future. It seems that it is improbable that below the stock line could be that much worse--especially since the one my father had 30 + years ago was not as nice as this one, and was perfect under the stock.

Had I bought the one from yesterday (1918), I definitely would disassemble. Many parts contained surface rust, the birch stock contained a dull finish from much use, and there was something carved into the stock. I was in at $250 but not at $350. I got mine at that ($467.62 with premiums, tax and FFL transfer fee), but was willing to go to $400 (plus associated fees).
 
The sights may have been replace by the Swedes after they changed from a round nosed slug to a Sptizer. There was also a square platel applied to the stock of guns sighted for the old round sighted would shoot with the new round IIRC or vice versa (see orpington's post #16 of this thread)

Some of the CAI rifles had arear sight that had a circular adjustment piece on the ladder that replaced the slide and some people call that the micrometer sight rather than the actual rear peep micrometer found on the actual match rifles.

IIRC the original sight had the slide in the forward most position for closer range and the later sights had the slide at the closest position for the least range and the disc adjuster was only used on the newer sights.

Please don't beat me Swede-perts if I am wrong!

-kBob
 
The sights may have been replace by the Swedes after they changed from a round nosed slug to a Sptizer. There was also a square platel applied to the stock of guns sighted for the old round sighted would shoot with the new round IIRC or vice versa (see orpington's post #16 of this thread)

Some of the CAI rifles had arear sight that had a circular adjustment piece on the ladder that replaced the slide and some people call that the micrometer sight rather than the actual rear peep micrometer found on the actual match rifles.

IIRC the original sight had the slide in the forward most position for closer range and the later sights had the slide at the closest position for the least range and the disc adjuster was only used on the newer sights.

Please don't beat me Swede-perts if I am wrong!

-kBob

Orpington,

I understand not being in a hurry to disassemble because if the rifle shoots accurately, sometimes it is difficult to get it back to that condition.

One reason that I do that is that old firearms with uncertain pedigrees can have unseen problems (1917 rifles can have cracks in the receiver ring, probably from rebarrelling, a lot of Mausers, particularly the South and Central American ones can demonstrate an astonishing amount of pitting below the wood line, etc.). Sometimes folks have even been taken dangerously like some of those P14 training rifles where the hole in the barrel was covered by replacement stocks and handguards. Used rifles over the internet can be an interesting experience and you can kiss some frogs before you find that princess.

Another issue that I have seen on old rifles, not particularly the Swedes, but any is that the old stocks have set up and either warped a bit in storage, gotten dry in the barrel channel and handguard area, or have had hard use. Others have issues from wood shrinking on the gap between the Mauser trigger guard/magazine and the receiver bottom which can cause accuracy issues. It is not uncommon to see trigger areas with oil soaked and softened wood or chipout around the front trigger guard screw in the stock. Some have suffered because of too much gun oil as the distilled stuff the militaries used was not particularly kind to stocks.

kBob
Nope, you are absolutely right. I forgot about the reverse orientation of the original 96 sight ladder which is atypical. I had bought a bare receiver and a 96 barrel without the sight ladder to rebuild one just because. Got to looking at it and thought that some knucklehead had installed it the wrong way. Took the Kehaya and Poyer book and some websites photos to convince me that it was supposed to be that way. CAI still has some of those original disc sights for $99, I think. You see the true Swede micrometer sights on Ebay from time to time but those are getting pricey. You can also buy a sight correction decal on Ebay if you like for less than $20.
 
Another issue that I have seen on old rifles, not particularly the Swedes, but any is that the old stocks have set up and either warped a bit in storage, gotten dry in the barrel channel and handguard area, or have had hard use. Others have issues from wood shrinking on the gap between the Mauser trigger guard/magazine and the receiver bottom which can cause accuracy issues. It is not uncommon to see trigger areas with oil soaked and softened wood or chipout around the front trigger guard screw in the stock. Some have suffered because of too much gun oil as the distilled stuff the militaries used was not particularly kind to stocks.

I would take a mil surplus out to the range and shoot it. If it did not shoot round groups, I would bed the thing. It always improved the accuracy and consistency of the groups. It is rare to find a mil surplus in which the bedding is still good.
 
Okay you convinced me to disassemble. Probably tomorrow afternoon or on Wednesday.
 
Okay you convinced me to disassemble. Probably tomorrow afternoon or on Wednesday.

These are a few tips that I have learned from disassembling old military surplus rifles in various states of cruddiness. I use some penetrating oil around the action screws first and give time for it to soak in (have the rifle level and upside down. I find that Kroil works for me but the pb blaster and loctite brands are ok. Sometimes the screw head will be glued by dried cosmolene, rust, and other stuff into the trigger guard and that will need to be softened for removal.

Make darn sure that you use hollowground screwdrivers with tips that match the slots directly. Use a wood bbq skewer or a hard plastic pick to get all of the crud out of the screw head slot. You can use a metal pick if you are very careful but one slip and you can scratch the screw head (been there and done that). Have a rawhide or hard plastic headed non marking mallet to tap on the screw head (impact) if necessary to loosen. These can also be used with the screwdriver to transfer impact energy to the screw to break up the screw being locked into place by crud. If too much resistance, then stop or risk marring the screw heads.

If you ever plan on bedding the rifle, do yourself a favor and either get inletting screws or a new set of action screws from Brownells or Midwayusa. The reason being is that the original screws can get damaged from taking the rifle action in and out of the stock or even glued into place accidentally. Better to use replaceable screws in such events.

The post by Patrick Chadwick on milsurps has always been my guide along the rifle itself of the amount of torque needed on the action screws upon reassembly.
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=42818
 
20181210_111505.jpg 20181210_111526.jpg 20181210_111444.jpg 20181210_112526.jpg I had some unexpected time this morning, and with Appendix G of "Swedish Mauser Rifles" in hand, I attempted disassembly. Removed the bolt, cleaning rod, and 2 screws, not a problem! The base of the magazine and trigger guard are fitted quite tightly and the two barrel bands are also snug. Disassembly stopped at this point. It's not worth the effort wrapping screwdrivers in masking tape to depress the spring holding the barrel to the stock, wiggling magazine base and trigger guard when no movement is discernable, etc., when this rifle looks very good in obvious external places. Correct me if I am wrong. Photographs attached, plus the import marking on the barrel. 20181210_111505.jpg
 
View attachment 815594 View attachment 815595 View attachment 815596 View attachment 815597 I had some unexpected time this morning, and with Appendix G of "Swedish Mauser Rifles" in hand, I attempted disassembly. Removed the bolt, cleaning rod, and 2 screws, not a problem! The base of the magazine and trigger guard are fitted quite tightly and the two barrel bands are also snug. Disassembly stopped at this point. It's not worth the effort wrapping screwdrivers in masking tape to depress the spring holding the barrel to the stock, wiggling magazine base and trigger guard when no movement is discernable, etc., when this rifle looks very good in obvious external places. Correct me if I am wrong. Photographs attached, plus the import marking on the barrel. View attachment 815594

Given that you have not seen any pitting etc. and the stock seems solid, I would reassemble and shoot it with factory ammo of a known quality at this point first. If you get patterns instead of groups, then reassess what is going on. A lot can be discerned by checking the crown, making sure the sights are properly aligned and not loose, checking headspace and the condition of the fired brass (don't use reloads for a test fire. If you use calipers you can measure the brass in key areas before and after firing to determine how the chamber is. If you have the Hornady headspace/comparator kit, you can get a pretty good idea outside of a chamber cast of the condition of your rifle.

For future reference to the OP and others using search function.

The trigger guard should be able to be removed after you remove the floor plate without removing the band springs if you wish. When you look inside the receiver after the bolt is removed and the magazine floorplate, follower, mag spring, you should see a slight gap between the trigger guard and the receiver. This is good btw. You can tap the trigger guard out at that point. You should be able to see any problem internal to the stock such as softened wood around the trigger or a deteriorated wood around the front receiver screw/trigger guard boss.

On the barrel bands, those are a pain regardless of the model. To remove, first take out the cleaning rod as it passes through the channels of the barrel bands. I generally depress the barrel band by one hand (the off hand) and use a wood block to tap the barrel band off the band spring with a soft plastic hammer. On difficult ones, like in the picture, you can use a soft faced wood clamp (harbor freight about $2-3 dollars or walmart) but I use a stick of bamboo bbq skewer instead of a punch as they did.

The lower band (closest to the sights) is big enough to go over the front sight (without sight hood that is) by angling it off. The upper band (closest to the muzzle), depending on the rifle, may have up pressure and be difficult to remove. Tight is good. Removing the upper band is similar to the process of the lower band.

Now, where problems lie--one if the rifle has been finished in shellac, varnish, paint, etc. the removal of the barrel bands can mark it up, especially the lower band, it can also scratch the metal upon removal. In military use, these were treated with some sort of oil, linseed, tung, birch, (leaving out pine pitch for the moment). That would fill in and harden the wood a bit and simply be reapplied upon removal. The metal of the barrel and barrel bands would be oiled slightly to reduce friction and the carry any debris that might scratch away with the band. The other thing is that the handguard must be rotated off around the sights after lifting slightly unless you remove the sight pin (not recommended). Once the upper band is loosened slightly, you can get the handguard edge out from under the band and the rear handguard retaining ring and remove it which makes the upper band slide freely.

Here is a step by step with pictures from the defunct website of surplus rifles which has been archived elsewhere,
http://thisoldrifle.com/mauserswedish/rifledisassembly/index.asp
 
Question: Safety, left is fire, right is safety, vertical--what is that? Did fire this yesterday with no problems. Out in the sunlight, this rifle looks fairly pristine. I know that some of these, as explained above, are in much worse condition under the stock, but given how good in condition is from what is evident outwardly, it doesn't seem possible it could be that significantly worse under the stock.

The one my father had 30 years ago, IIRC, was no different under the stock when this was removed to sporterize the carbine. Seems sacrilegious to do this in this day and age. The one he had did not contain matching numbers.
 
Mausers have a three position safety: Fire; safety on/bolt can move; safety on/bolt locked.
 
New Year's Day fun. Disregard top 3 shots, that was just trying to figure where to hold. Okay group given shooting on a windy day and into the sun. At 75 yards. 140 grain #2630 Hornady bullet Spire Point, 31 grains IMR 3031. Held to just beneath the square.
 

Attachments

  • 20190101_131307.jpg
    20190101_131307.jpg
    52.3 KB · Views: 12
stock is beech, which was the only wood used in 1915.

There is record on this site run by a Swede, D.L.van den Brink showing Elm, Maple and Mahogany having been used in 1915, 1916 & 1917 but those are the only years indicated. For those not familiar with this web site there is a treasure trove of fascinating and informative info available.

House of Karlina
1894 & 1896 Swedish Mausers
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/index.html
 
I thank
There is record on this site run by a Swede, D.L.van den Brink showing Elm, Maple and Mahogany having been used in 1915, 1916 & 1917 but those are the only years indicated. For those not familiar with this web site there is a treasure trove of fascinating and informative info available.

House of Karlina
1894 & 1896 Swedish Mausers
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/index.html


I was not aware of this web site.. many thanks
 
After I got my first Swedish 1905 M96 someone hooked me up to that sight, I have referenced it many times since then!
 
Just curious, as I am still doing my research on these mausers, but, what would the accuracy be out of an 18 inch barrel? I see one for sale, but no definitive answer on that barrel length.
 
Just curious, as I am still doing my research on these mausers, but, what would the accuracy be out of an 18 inch barrel? I see one for sale, but no definitive answer on that barrel length.
Short barrels can often be quite accurate. It all depends on barrel and receiver harmonics. You will lose some velocity which can affect issues at a distance regarding bullet drop. Some of these rifles were rebarrelled because of U.S. gun laws at the time (U.S. regs used to require 18 inch barrels or longer on rifles as well as shotguns) and I believe the original Swede barrel was just a tad too short.

They also made a cheap flash hider threaded to the Swede's barrel threads that could be permanently tacked in place that extended the barrel's length enough to pass inspection. The threaded barrels were used with a blank firing device as the Swedes used wooden bullets for gallery rounds. http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=9893 Sarco used to handle the flash hiders and thread caps for these barrels but not sure if they do any longer.
 
You really shouldn't shoot these old Sweeds! Pack it up and send it my way and I will make sure no one else ever shoots it! :)

The Sweeds are my FAVORITES of my mil surplus rifles and all of mine have been outstanding shooters. I own 4. I shoot all 4 frequently with mid powered handloads. All 4 of mine are extremely accurate... The first 96 I purchased back in the 90's I took out to shoot for the first time and I obliterated a GatorAid bottle at about 75 yards off hand... VERY FIRST SHOT I PUT THROUGH THE RIFLE!!! absolutely no sighting in. I fell in love with the sweeds right then and there! After a really good cleaning and thorough inspection paying special attention to the receiver looking for any kind of cracks I have always felt very safe behind my Sweeds.

The disc on the stock is the barrel grade and the bore diameter from when the armory last evaluated the rifle. If you would like to post a picture we would be happy to decode it for you.

As for 96's not having threaded barrels... those were probably manufactured in California!

I believe the blank firing device was a cage to catch the splinters from practice rounds... that had wooden bullets. Maybe only the training rifles were threaded? I bought all of mine at roughly the same time so they might have been all training rifles? It would be interesting to know!
Why do you mis-spell "Swede" as "Sweed". Is it your pet name for the M96?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top