Teaching a Lesson By Example ???

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Loyalist Dave

Loyalist Dave

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I wonder should I teach a lesson by example or not?


My “foster” nephew refers to traditional muzzleloaders as Elmer Fudd guns. I hunt upland birds with a Pedersoli 20 gauge caplock SxS with upland choked barrels.

Background info: The Pedersoli is the only shotgun that I’ve ever shot my limit on pheasants or chukkar, and I’ve done it more than once. NOT that I’m a super bird-shooter…, I just got lucky that this particular gun fits me great, and the barrels are very well regulated. None of my other 20 gauges work so well for me.

He’s my “foster” nephew as he really isn’t related to me, but his family calls me Uncle Dave, or Crazy Uncle Dave. He wants to go upland bird hunting, and there is a rather inexpensive upland bird game preserve near to me. His dad wants to split the cost of a day’s hunting with me, so that his son the foster nephew can get some birds along with his dad and me.

Now my foster-nephew-teenager is all of 15 years old and will likely use his over/under 20 gauge, breech loader. He thinks he’s pretty good with that thing, and he is SURE he’s better with his shotgun than I am with my caplock.

So I’m thinkin’ that I need to go with him and his father to this game preserve and knock a whole bunch of birds down with him, and every time I knock one down, say something like, “Be vewy vewy quiet, I’m hunting burds, hahahahahahaha” doing my best Elmer Fudd impression. ESPECIALLY if he misses a bird and I make the follow-up shot.

So they will likely end up with 2x the birds that I end up with, our party having three guns and the “mix” of game birds that will be part of the "package" likely go evenly three ways…,(God willing and the birds cooperate and give us good shots...which we hopefully make) ... which is part of the plan, as foster-nephew’s dad is a professional chef, so the more birds they get, the more he will prepare and invite me and my wife over to eat! The dad is a much better wild game cook than I, so suffice it to say that while I’m Crazy Uncle Dave …..I’m not Stupid Uncle Dave…. ;)

ELMER FUDD.JPG

LD
 
Thinking of "Elmer Fudd guns", I recall the cartoons weren't real clear what the gun was... mainly it just belched smoke. In modern parlance, I was under the impression a Fudd gun was anything other than an AR. I recall a lot of angst associated with the term there for a while. If that's the case, your foster nephew's O/U and whatever his dad are using are just as likely Fudd guns as your muzzleloader is said to be.

As a type of hunter, I can say I grew up laughing at Elmer Fudd. I also grew up wondering if it was anti-hunting propaganda, but that may be another story.

As far as muzzleloading goes, I think to hunt/shoot effectively with one requires an appreciation for history. Just like so many percussion revolver threads... it's not the latest greatest most tacticool thing, but it's still viable. You're talking about a 15 year old boy. What are the chances he's seen a front-stuffed shotgun in real use?

All I can say is enjoy what you do. Some can share the pursuit. Unfortunately, not all.
 
With 2 adults along to supervise him correctly, I think it would be a grand thing to do in this day of plastic AR and Glock guns! Although it was not BP shooting, I worked at a skeet/trap range in NE and learned to shoot skeet in 1969 with a Rem 870 and loved doing it.

Regards,

Jim
 
School the kid. Have lots of trouble with prevocalic R’s, call him a “mighty hunter” or just Nimrod. Get birds and have fun. The boy just might learn something,
 
Do it!
my guess is, if you loaded up the Pedersoli for him and handed it to him, he would be mightily impressed by the handling.
Then all you need to do is tech him how to load it!
 
Loyalist Dave said:
I wonder should I teach a lesson by example or not?


My “foster” nephew refers to traditional muzzleloaders as Elmer Fudd guns. I hunt upland birds with a Pedersoli 20 gauge caplock SxS with upland choked barrels.

Background info: The Pedersoli is the only shotgun that I’ve ever shot my limit on pheasants or chukkar, and I’ve done it more than once. NOT that I’m a super bird-shooter…, I just got lucky that this particular gun fits me great, and the barrels are very well regulated. None of my other 20 gauges work so well for me.

He’s my “foster” nephew as he really isn’t related to me, but his family calls me Uncle Dave, or Crazy Uncle Dave. He wants to go upland bird hunting, and there is a rather inexpensive upland bird game preserve near to me. His dad wants to split the cost of a day’s hunting with me, so that his son the foster nephew can get some birds along with his dad and me.

Now my foster-nephew-teenager is all of 15 years old and will likely use his over/under 20 gauge, breech loader. He thinks he’s pretty good with that thing, and he is SURE he’s better with his shotgun than I am with my caplock.

So I’m thinkin’ that I need to go with him and his father to this game preserve and knock a whole bunch of birds down with him, and every time I knock one down, say something like, “Be vewy vewy quiet, I’m hunting burds, hahahahahahaha” doing my best Elmer Fudd impression. ESPECIALLY if he misses a bird and I make the follow-up shot.

So they will likely end up with 2x the birds that I end up with, our party having three guns and the “mix” of game birds that will be part of the "package" likely go evenly three ways…,(God willing and the birds cooperate and give us good shots...which we hopefully make) ... which is part of the plan, as foster-nephew’s dad is a professional chef, so the more birds they get, the more he will prepare and invite me and my wife over to eat! The dad is a much better wild game cook than I, so suffice it to say that while I’m Crazy Uncle Dave …..I’m not Stupid Uncle Dave…. ;)

View attachment 871504

LD
Click to expand...
What lesson do you think that example is going to teach?

Seems to me he has already been "schooled" pretty good.

Why not just go along and hunt with the kid and help him and teach him like you would any one else. Give the kid a pass on his ignorant comments and "be cool" attempts. Show him that ADULT hunters are not ALL arrogant A-holes.
 
Kids today are allowed to run their mouths more than when I was a kid for sure. it just is what it is - you kind of have to let it go - and shake your head at it. I used to fish with a friend of mine, and this one kid who was friends with my friend's son would go, and run his mouth something awful. it was too much and I tried to sort of teach him - there was a limit there, but I just got in trouble, and the kid never learned anything. last I heard of that kid, was he ran his mouth at a state championship football game - and some older kids from another school beat him senseless under the bleachers, and he was in the ambulance on his way to the emergency room.
 
J-Bar said:
Go to have fun, not to prove anything.

Be the gentleman hunter we all should aspire to be. The kid is more likely to absorb that lesson. He will remember that you treated him as a valued companion, not as a juvenile who needed to be schooled.
Click to expand...

"Proof", "results", and "fun" all go together here. The enjoyment is from being there, with one's arm of choice, in good company. The proof is in the results.

We're talking about a 15 year old boy with limited knowledge and limited experience. There's a couple of different ways to look at "schooling"... don't have to humiliate to educate. I wouldn't suggest to ridicule the "mighty hunter" unless he proved less than a gentleman first because many times you get what you give. But, an Elmer Fudd joke up front, maybe self-deprecating humor at the right moment, might defuse a lot of stuff before results are gotten into.

And like I said in post #2, that boy's O/U is a Fudd gun too. So it's not a question of whether or not we like Fudd guns, but rather which Fudd guns do we prefer.
 
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Loyalist Dave said:
I wonder should I teach a lesson by example or not?


My “foster” nephew refers to traditional muzzleloaders as Elmer Fudd guns. I hunt upland birds with a Pedersoli 20 gauge caplock SxS with upland choked barrels.

Background info: The Pedersoli is the only shotgun that I’ve ever shot my limit on pheasants or chukkar, and I’ve done it more than once. NOT that I’m a super bird-shooter…, I just got lucky that this particular gun fits me great, and the barrels are very well regulated. None of my other 20 gauges work so well for me.

He’s my “foster” nephew as he really isn’t related to me, but his family calls me Uncle Dave, or Crazy Uncle Dave. He wants to go upland bird hunting, and there is a rather inexpensive upland bird game preserve near to me. His dad wants to split the cost of a day’s hunting with me, so that his son the foster nephew can get some birds along with his dad and me.

Now my foster-nephew-teenager is all of 15 years old and will likely use his over/under 20 gauge, breech loader. He thinks he’s pretty good with that thing, and he is SURE he’s better with his shotgun than I am with my caplock.

So I’m thinkin’ that I need to go with him and his father to this game preserve and knock a whole bunch of birds down with him, and every time I knock one down, say something like, “Be vewy vewy quiet, I’m hunting burds, hahahahahahaha” doing my best Elmer Fudd impression. ESPECIALLY if he misses a bird and I make the follow-up shot.

So they will likely end up with 2x the birds that I end up with, our party having three guns and the “mix” of game birds that will be part of the "package" likely go evenly three ways…,(God willing and the birds cooperate and give us good shots...which we hopefully make) ... which is part of the plan, as foster-nephew’s dad is a professional chef, so the more birds they get, the more he will prepare and invite me and my wife over to eat! The dad is a much better wild game cook than I, so suffice it to say that while I’m Crazy Uncle Dave …..I’m not Stupid Uncle Dave…. ;)

View attachment 871504

LD
Click to expand...
Take whatever gun you want. He'll likely never be exposed to black powder by anyone else.
 
I can agree with most of the commentary in this thread, although I didn't read "Teaching a Lesson By Example" as a threat to rub his nose in it so to speak or being stated with a fist raised in the air.
Let him see what that Pedersoli can do and if you're interested in seeing if the black powder bug will bite him, let him give it a try.
 
In the North South Skirmish Association, we have sandbagged more than one group who thinks bp guns are inaccurate. The challenge is usually, your black rifle against our muskets, at 50yds on hanging pigeons. Only rule specific to the black rifle is they have to load single shot, no magazine fed. We've beaten LEOs, Nat Guard and others. AFAIK, we've never lost.

But really, to counter this image, we have to get them early. Here's a couple threads about what we did and are doing to counter both the "Fudd" image and liberal dumpster fire attitudes-

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/so-heres-what-weve-been-up-to.115764/#post-1582187
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-follow-up-on-the-scout-project.115989/#post-1586143

As part of our marksmanship training, we get the kids to where they can consistently hit the "standard" target of 10" at 25yd, then we start shrinking it and working on fundamentals. When they think they're getting good, we go to the "Cracker Challenge", a Ritz type cracker hanging on a wire at 25yd. No backer to see where you miss, better know your POA and POI. Incidentally, a Ritz cracker presents the target aspect of 8moa and we're shooting completely offhand. How many of you can shoot sub 8moa offhand with no sling or support of any kind with a Civil War musket?

The problem I see today is far too many shooters have never, ever learned to properly shoot. They are all caught up in the cool black rifle thing but most can't hit the barn from inside a horse stall. I see it all the time at the range. I see guys bemoaning their BP rifle and when I start asking questions, their ignorance of what actually affects accuracy and their shooting technique is tremendous. They'll insist they're doing things right until I ask them to fire a shot for me and let me observe, then I'll tell them I'm a NRA BP Muzzleloading Instructor and active muzzleloading competitor. Usually they'll listen then, especially when I take my 58 Enfield and cut a sub 2moa group with it while they watch. So sometimes, it takes a bit of good natured "put up or shut up" with the naysayers.
 
Armored farmer said:
He'll likely never be exposed to black powder by anyone else.
Click to expand...

I should note that his dad and I are AVID black powder shooters....in fact I horse traded two years ago to help him get a very serviceable .44 caliber (1970's vintage) flintlock rifle for deer hunting ..., but he then decided he wants to do only modern.
Not trying to "rub his nose in it"...he's a good sport, but just trying to demonstrate that "The Magic is in the wizard; not in the wand." That saying was said to me by a gunsmith named James Funk, who made action shooting handguns for a lot of folks down in North Carolina. It was in response to my question about my pistol at the time, and what new "improvement" that I should add, when I had not practiced with it yet. In fact I will have to work hard to keep up with the little beggar and his shotgun. ;)

LD
 
One big factor is lost knowledge. As tech progressed, the old school systems that worked... and they still work for those who understand them... became seen by many as backward, or they fell out of favor with people who didn't want to be seen as backward. Peer pressure induced ignorance. This reminds me of so much "6.5CM can beat up your .30-30" kind of talk. Yall realize that before Alvin York went in the Army, he used a flintlock?
 
I don't own any BP rifles. I do though sort of think of them like the fly rod of shooting. Eventually, the common way gets easy, so - one takes a leap into a more elegant tool from a more - or less civilized age.
 
J-Bar said:
Go to have fun, not to prove anything.

Be the gentleman hunter we all should aspire to be. The kid is more likely to absorb that lesson. He will remember that you treated him as a valued companion, not as a juvenile who needed to be schooled.
Click to expand...

A friend once said to teach his son; he noticed all the bad habits he acquired over the years. ;)
 
The NMLRA has a collection of some of Max Vickery’s old articles (wish it was a lot bigger) called Vintage Vickery. It has an article on this very subject. He goes out with a couple teenagers carrying pumps and embarrasses them with side by side muzzleloader.
No longer a member since July, but the magazine would be better with an old Vickery article in it every month. Kind of like watching a good movie over and over.
 
Back when we had pheasants here, my buddy and I hunted with another pair of friends. He had an old Rem 11, I had a belgian 13 gauge muzzle loader. They had an 870 and a Star Gauge 20 double. They made fun of our antiques. My buddy said, 'when we're done, you clean our game and we'll clean yours." New years eve, we hunted rabbit, pheasant and quail. We were all getting together with our wives at 870s house. My buddy and I were done with their two rabbits and one pheasant in ten minutes. We were on our third beer with the ladies when the other guys got done with our two limits of pheasant, six rabbits and a half dozen quail. He shot i.c. and I shot cyl/cyl. They had full, and mod/full.
 
Post #22 is why I don't bet against guys who use older tech. Also, it could be a more open choke is more effective and less destructive of meat up close just as a full choke, in the right hands, can be more effective farther out.

To have a hunt, good humor... maybe a bet can sometimes make things interesting...
 
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I wouldn't worry about teaching lessons unless its taking ethical shots at game to make sure your shots are killing shots and not wounding shots. And then just enjoy having a kid to go shoot with. I used to love hunting doves with my sons. Seeing them get a bird was far more fun than me shooting a bird. Same with fishing. Watching a kid reel in a fish is far more satisfying than catching one myself.

Just be a good hunter. The kid will learn plenty.
 
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