Pyrodex Pellets vs Black Powder loads...

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Chapmansboro

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Hello Friends,
A friend recommended joining this forum to get some answers... I'm sure it's been addressed, so I apologize if this is repetitive. My father handed down his Thompson Hawken "Cougar" .50 with supplies. It came with Pyrodex Pellets (50 Cal/50 grain) along with Sabot ballistics (not positive of grain, but probably 400?). In researching Thompson Hawken for this weapon, it says Pyrodex .50gr is same as 70 black powder, but only mentions in grain...no pellet. My question is will one pellet be enough to push this ballistic, or should I drop two. And if two, I want to make sure I'm not loading the equivalent of 140 gr for blackpowder, as I really like my shoulder...and face ! Thanks for any advice. Would like to hunt in the morning !!
 

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Pyrodex pellets ARE NOT recommended for use in sidelock muzzle loaders.
They are harder to ignite and can lead to misfires and ignition problems.
The best or only way to reliably use one would be if a booster charge of loose powder was first placed UNDER THE PELLET to help insure that it will ignite.
If the pellets are old then there is a slightly increased chance that they will have absorbed moisture and may be even more unreliable.

A 50 grain pellet is supposed to equal 50 grains of loose powder.
A saboted bullet is usually loaded with about 80 to 100 grains of Pyrodex depending on the granulation.
Pyrodex P powder should provide slightly better ignition because the smaller granules will flow into the flash channel better and should ignite better.

But generally, any powder can be used as the booster charge UNDER the pellet.
So one pellet and 30 to 50 grains of loose powder should help you find a load that works with those projectiles, preferably 3F powder unless using real black powder.
Go up or down in 10 grain increments until you achieve the desired accuracy.
With bullets and a barrel with a medium 1 in 48" twist rate, 90 - 100 grains of powder usually provides better stabilization of the bullet.
To be honest, those look like 240-250 grain bullets.
They should work with a medium twist barrel but you may need to swab the barrel after every 2-3 shots if not after every shot.
A clean barrel simulates the 1st cold shot while hunting and makes loading easier.
Testing will show if swabbing after every shot also helps accuracy.

Some folks do use musket caps or a 209 primer adapter instead of #11 percussion caps with their sidelocks.
And even then, I would still recommend using a booster charge of loose powder UNDER the pellet.
They are basically intended for use with inline rifles that have direct ignition.
They can work in sidelocks, but can lead to needing to prime the flash channel with loose powder if it creates a misfire.
And that's what you want to avoid, because by not using a booster charge a person can end up needing to pull the bullet if the pellet doesn't ignite for some reason, such as due to a clogged flash channel.
 
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Great Feedback. I'll scrap pellets and move to powder. Recommended brand, and charge? Should I move to ball as well? Just tell me what you recommend for this weapon, and what I need to buy and I'll move that direction. The gun is absolutly gorgeous, and want to preserve this beauty while at the same time maximizing use for whitetail. Thanks Again !!
 
…, and want to preserve this beauty while at the same time maximizing use for whitetail .
Good for you!
You also mentioned being kind to your shoulder, n'est-ce pas ? ;)

So check your local regs for minimum hunting loads as some states have them, but...the old rule of thumb for "working up" a load for a sidelock muzzleloader such as yours is to start with grains of powder measured by a volume measure = to your caliber (rounded to the nearest 5). So...in your case you start with 50 grains. A guy with a .45 would start with 45 grains and a guy with a .54 would round to the "nearest 5" and so would start with 55 grains. :thumbup:

Now I for example have a .54...but...my state says I MUST have at least 60 grains of powder for hunting whitetail. OK so I started with 60 instead of 55. Then I tried 70 grains, and the rifle shot a very good group at 50 yards and even out to 100. 80 grains was also good but started to jar me a bit, so I settled on 70 grains. I have found a lot of folks use from 70-90 grains for rifles from .45 caliber to .54.....

You can use conicals, and you can use sabots, and …, you can probably use cloth patched, round ball. The conicals give you more mass in the projectile, but the round ball tends to be a bit more accurate when you get out past a 70 yard shot. The sabot style projectiles.... there are so many "flavors" of them, meaning weight, design, and composition, it's tough to say what they will do from your rifle. They might be better than a round ball at 100 yards for accuracy, or they might suck at 50 yards. See the Cougar is a very pretty rifle with a 1:48 twist rate in the barrel (iirc). So it may not work with all sabots. (imho) A lot of folks choose a conical bullet over the round ball for personal confidence in their load...without gaining any greater lethality going for whitetail or even mulies, except on paper.....

Can the round ball harvest deer? YEP the 177 grain all lead .490 ball will knock down whitetail, no worries. AND it's very nice on the recoil! My patched round ball has been shown to go through a broadside 90 lb. whitetail doe at 110 yards.o_O Mine is only 38 grains of lead heavier than the ball you'd be using.
-Other options are TC conicals such as the Maxi-Ball, or the TC Maxi-Hunter (I always got better groups from the Maxi-Hunters in my TC Rifles)
-Hornady Great Plains Bullets... sometimes these work better than the TC bullets even in TC rifles. They have a slight concave base to help grab the rifling.
-Lee REAL bullets (tend to be forgiving of bores that have been found pitted). They swage themselves onto the rifling when loaded, which is why they are forgiving.
-And of course various sabots.

Bottom Line: Always choose the most accurate projectile over the easiest to load, and never choose a projectile by figuring on a fast reload and a quick second shot.

LD
 
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I agree with the above posters. Ditch the pellets and go with real black powder if you can get it or one of the substitutes like Pyrodex or Triple 7. As for projectiles, I would also ditch the saboted rounds and go with a lead conical or a patched round ball. If you don't want to mess with a patched round ball, I have had good results with the Hornaday PA conical. It is 245 grains and seems to shoot well in the 1:48" twist of T/C guns. Your Cougar is a beautiful half stock side lock. T/C went to extra pains to stock them with beautifully grained walnut. Good luck.
 
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Bottom Line: Always choose the most accurate projectile over the easiest to load, and never choose a projectile by figuring on a fast reload and a quick second shot.

LD

Bingo!!! Learn to shoot properly!

Some advice-
Ditch the pellets and go with a good grade of 3f black powder like Old Eynsford or Swiss if you can find it. Otherwise Goex or Schutzen, it's like getting regular v high test gas from the same station.

Work with either a conical like the Lee REAL bullet or patched round ball. Your rifling twist rate will determine what shoots best.

You don't need gobs of powder and speed. Both bullets at a moderate velocity can be tack drivers and will still pass completely through Bambi.

Finally- practice and learn to shoot properly. With black powder fundamentals are critical to good accuracy. All a modern gun does is cover up poor marksmanship with high velocity and fast lock times.

An example from our competition organization- the North South Skirmish Association (we compete with Civil War arms including artillery!) Many of our guys hunt with the very arms they compete with. Often it's a 58cal musket with a "target" load of about 45gr 3f with a 450+gr minie ball. In no case does Bambi avoid the freezer when hit. The bullet is poking along at about 900fps BUT it still weighs 450+gr, is made from soft lead, AND is already nearly 60cal. Good thing is it's easy on the shoulder and crazy accurate.
 
Every powder and projectile type has their pros and cons.
Conicals and sabots may shoot well in one gun with a certain powder load and not as well in another.
It's the same with patched round balls.
Components need to be tested for that first shot accuracy out of a cold clean barrel to find what may group well.

Some folks plink and target shoot with patched round balls and hunt with other projectiles.
Every region has different size deer and some projectiles may pack more punch down range at the fringe distances.
And then some people hunt woods while others hunt fields which leads folks to expect different levels of hunting accuracy.

Patched round balls [PRB's] are probably the most fun to load and shoot at the range but accuracy may suffer beyond a certain distance, say 60 /65- 70/75 yards.
What's nice about them is that the lubed patch can in effect help to swab the barrel with each loading, by pushing the fouling back down into the breach when ramming each successive PRB.
But the amount and type of fouling that accumulates can also depend on the type of powder.
And the same applies to accuracy as paper plate accuracy is often good enough for many folks while others demand more consistent results, especially if target shooting.
There can be 2 kinds of loads, the most accurate target load using a lighter powder charge which may not be the best or preferred hunting load using a heavier powder charge for killing larger deer.

Real black powders are often the most accurate for shooting PRB's and offer the best ignition.
But they also tend to cause more fouling if firing a lot of shots and with heavier charges.
I've always used Pyrodex P and have no complaints with misfires, and I think that it burns cleaner than Pyrodex RS.
The substitute powders may burn cleaner, but can be more sensitive as to how much they get compressed when ramming the projectile which can affect accuracy and consistent results.

And the amount of difficulty cleaning the accumulated powder residue can also vary for each type of powder.
Just be aware that the more powder that's loaded, the more carbon fouling that will be left behind, and each type and even brand of powder can produce residues that can have different characteristics and even aromas.

The way I look at it, if a gun will consistently shoot the first shot from a cold, clean barrel accurately with a saboted bullet, then I'll chose the saboted bullet.
The extra weight of the projectile can possibly provide better penetration.
But there's certainly nothing wrong with using a PRB and many prefer them as long as they shoot accurately with a higher powder charge.
It's about the shooter's preference which might include how large deer are in your neck of the woods, while some folks like to have more room for shooter's error using open sights and considering the different possible shooting angles when hunting deer.
But it boils down to how well the projectile shoots from your gun with a heavier powder charge.
 
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Please don’t hunt until you are absolutely sure where that projectile, whichever you use, is going to hit. Instead of hunting tomorrow, shoot at some paper.

Then clean your rifle as soon as you get home. In fact, clean it before trying to sight it in. I’m not trying to criticize your father, just make sure the rifle’s bore is in good condition and clean before going out every time. Cleaning a blackpowder firearm is not hard but must be done conscientiously. Hot soapy water followed by Ballistol or Bore Butter applied to the dried bore will help preserve that heirloom.

Good luck.
 
Just some observations here. You papa handed down the rifle with shooting supplies, which would indicate that’s what he used.
Now my own blackpowder rifle experience is limited to one rifle, a TC Cherokee, a 45 caliber, guess what I used, yep Pyrodex pellets and Hornaday sabot bullets, along with Maxi balls. I’ve owned others but gave them to my youngest.

Now it’s a given all the above posts are more experience than me, but before I’d go dumping perfectly good components I’d head off to a spot and shoot a bit. Start with one pellet and see what it does , then try two pellets.
I’d be willing to bet as many deer are taken with Pyrodex pellets and sabot pistol rounds as with any other muzzle loader. JMO for what it’s worth.
 
I’d be willing to bet as many deer are taken with Pyrodex pellets and sabot pistol rounds as with any other muzzle loader

Oh you'd probably find that more deer are taken with sabots, some using special bullets, some using pistol bullets, than with the traditional bullets each year. I'd wager that lots more guys are hunting with inlines than traditional sidelocks, BUT those inline rifles are designed to impart a stabilizing spin on a sabot round, while the 1:48 twist barrel of the OP is actually a relic twist-rate from the round ball era. :thumbup: I'd wonder if with that 28" barrel the previous owner was launching them bullets with two pellets = 100 grains because he needed as much muzzle velocity as he could get to cause the modern bullets to deform on impact :scrutiny: ??

IF you considered all the deer family animals taken in North America since firearms arrived, you'd probably find that the majority were taken with lead round ball, simply because of the time it took to develop something other than that for a projectile. But that's a history discussion.... :D

LD
 
Well my only observation , based on my own experience was to not chuck dollars worth of merchandise on the say so of a few purist.

The few years, more than a few years ago, I actually hunted with that Cherokee I never had a chance to shoot a deer. But I shot dozens of rounds at the range in anticipation of that moment, using everything from loose powder and patched round balls to Loose and pelleted Pryodex and saboted rounds. The Maxi Hunters in 45 caliber were as accurate as any. It’s been a good twenty years but I don’t recall ignition or accuracy being any issue, especially at the ranges I intended to shoot. If a pistol bullet designed for pistol velocities preforms well would seem it would at black muzzle loader velocities also.

Like many I carried the pellets and sabot bullets afield as much for their convenience as anything else.
 
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If that uses the same type of breech plug/flash channel as the TC Hawken, I don't see how the pellets could be reliable, without a loose powder "priming charge" as mentioned. (and a squeaky clean breech and flash channel)

The Hornady Great Plains 385 grain bullet over 80 grains of 3f black shoots accurately in a TC Hawken I have. Round ball can sometimes take a bit of experimentation to perfect, and that's the only reason I went with the bullet over the ball. Plus I figured that a .50" 385 grain slug over 80 grains (.50-80-385) ain't nothing to sneeze at, when one hunts in a Grizzly Recovery area. !!! I tried the Hornady "PA Conical", which shot "okay" over 80 grains, but the Great Plains Bullet is for sure the winner. As mentioned, the .50's seem to shoot best in the 70-90 grain zone.
 
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