Ballistics of .38/.357 & Reconsideration of .45 Colt

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A sheriffs deputy once wrote that the only people who think a 38 special is weak are those who have never been shot by one. And Dave Scovill of Handloader magazine stated a 255gr Colt going 1,000fps would shoot length ways through an Elk. No "Ruger Only" loads needed. Any 45 Colt handgun can handle a load like that.

You seemed to spend a lot of time starting post on the forum. You really need to just buy a decent gun and get out and start shooting. I always recommend a S&W model 15 to a first time centerfire shooter. A nice adjustable sighted 38 special. Or if you can find a deal on a 357 of some sort. A GP-100 or Security Six. Heck even a Taurus 66 is an excellent first revolver. All handguns are fun to shoot. And expensive if you don't reload. And a 38/357 is light enough to be worn on a belt all day and forget its there. And the ammo cost will let you shoot more often than the cost of 45 Colt ammo.

The 45 Colt is a great round but not needed for a starter gun. And after shooting a while you will have a better idea of what you want for a second gun.
 
Mmm. It is foolish of me to not accept the advice of those more experienced than myself.
 
Now go this weekend and find a decent 38/357 revolver and a holster for it and a couple hundred rounds of ammo. Then go and make some empty brass. Save all the brass and any empties you can find.

My first centerfire pistol was a S&W model 19 with 6" barrel. I shot that gun and a Ruger 4" standard model 22lr for over two years and never looked for another gun. I spent hours reading reloading manuals and loading ammo. And then a couple of times a week I would go shooting. I shot mostly 38 special loads with a few magnums mixed in. But the 38s scratched my shooting itch. And they were cheap to load back in the early 1980s.

I had the brass. Powder was $10 a pound. Primers were $10 a thousand. The store I bought from sold their own cast lead bullets for $15 for 500 SWC bullets. A pound of Bullseye would load 2,000 rounds. It only cost pennies per round to shoot. I bought an RCBS single stage press I still use. Its the only press I own. A set or RCBS dies in 38/357. Those and a Little Dandy powder dispenser and a few rotors and I was in the reloading business. I never looked back.
 
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Mr. Mosin said:
Mmm. It is foolish of me to not accept the advice of those more experienced than myself.
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I don't think anyone on this board would intentionally try to demean another member based on experience level. Yes there are strong opinions on pretty much every subject that gets brought up.
The knowledge pool in this forum is amazingly deep. I have been shooting handguns since 10 years before you were born and rifles longer than that and I still learn something every day by coming here.
You don't have to follow every piece of advice offered here. In fact it's not possible. BUT by examining each post and taking a little something away from each one you can eventually make a very educated decision.
I have been hell bent on purchasing certain guns or different chamberings until I do some serious homework and realize that it may not be a wise decision. This thread is a perfect example of all the varying opinions. Some are due to experience some are based on hearsay. The more experience you get under your belt the easier it will be to filter through the all information you get here.
 
Ratshooter said:
Now go this weekend and find a decent 38/357 revolver and a holster for it and a couple hundred rounds of ammo. Then go and make some empty brass. Save all the brass and any empties you can find.

My first centerfire pistol was a S&W model 19 with 6" barrel. I shot that gun and a Ruger 4" standard model 22lr for over two years and never looked for another gun. I spent hours reading reloading manuals and loading ammo. And then a couple of times a week I would go shooting. I shot mostly 38 special loads with a few magnums mixed in. But the 38s scratched my shooting itch. And they were cheap to load back in the early 1980s.

I had the brass. Powder was $10 a pound. Primers were $10 a thousand. The store I bought from sold there own cast lead bullets for $15 for 500 SWC bullets. A pound of Bullseye would load 2,000 rounds. It only cost pennies per round to shoot. I bought an RCBS single stage press I still use. Its the only press I own. A set or RCBS dies in 38/357. Those and a Little Dandy powder dispenser and a few rotors and I was in the reloading business. I never looked back.
Click to expand...

If I could, I would. I am in the financial scenario known as "broke".
 
Mr. Mosin said:
If I could, I would. I am in the financial scenario known as "broke".
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Well it happens. I have been there before and it sucks. But work on it and its fixable. I see you are 24 years old. Unless you are going to school maybe you can pick up a second job. Thats if you have the first job. Just remember if you are at the bottom the only way to go is up.:thumbup:

Of course there is the joke that "Just when you think you are at the bottom some bastard throws you a shovel".
 
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Ratshooter said:
Now go this weekend and find a decent 38/357 revolver and a holster for it and a couple hundred rounds of ammo. Then go and make some empty brass. Save all the brass and any empties you can find.

My first centerfire pistol was a S&W model 19 with 6" barrel. I shot that gun and a Ruger 4" standard model 22lr for over two years and never looked for another gun. I spent hours reading reloading manuals and loading ammo. And then a couple of times a week I would go shooting. I shot mostly 38 special loads with a few magnums mixed in. But the 38s scratched my shooting itch. And they were cheap to load back in the early 1980s.

I had the brass. Powder was $10 a pound. Primers were $10 a thousand. The store I bought from sold their own cast lead bullets for $15 for 500 SWC bullets. A pound of Bullseye would load 2,000 rounds. It only cost pennies per round to shoot. I bought an RCBS single stage press I still use. Its the only press I own. A set or RCBS dies in 38/357. Those and a Little Dandy powder dispenser and a few rotors and I was in the reloading business. I never looked back.
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Though I have noticed surplus Mdl 10's for $299
 
Mr. Mosin said:
Though I have noticed surplus Mdl 10's for $299
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Yes I saw Aim Surplus had some skinny barrel model 10s for $299 a week ago. I just got a heavy barrel model 10 that belonged to my mother. I am guessing you saw the thread on that gun. It was free. My favorite price. You will never go wrong with a model 10. Most are barely shot and spent most of their lives loaded in the sock drawer. Then others show use but that doesn't usually hurt them for function.

I know you reported trouble with a buds Taurus but most are actually well made, accurate guns. I have owned several of them. A 4" model 66 is a good place to start. But I like the older 6 shot versions better than the new matt finished guns.
 
Mr. Mosin said:
Though I have noticed surplus Mdl 10's for $299
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Used gp100's can usually be had for about 500. If you watch GunBroker deals can be had. I scored my redhawk for 525 plus shipping and transfer fee, totaling $590. Decided I didn't like it and sold it to a friend of a friend for 625. One thing about rugers is the warranty. Buying guns on the web can be iffy because you never know what you're going to get. But atleast with Ruger if you get it and find it's got a problem you can call them up ,ship it and have them fix it. Worst case usually is you pay to ship it to them and they cover the rest.
 
Mr. Mosin said:
Though I have noticed surplus Mdl 10's for $299
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That's not a bad price. If you can see your way to picking up a M10 I promise you will not be disappointed. I'm not a big fan of the factory Magna grips but Amazon sells literally hundreds of aftermarket grips for very low prices.
You can not go wrong with a 38 Spl 4 inch revolver.
 
Pics of my 357 mag pistole's

Ruger Security Six ( I recommend the Security Six over newer GP100's )
Ruger LCR357 .. Lightweight concealable
Charter 4 inch barrel 22oz 357 mag .. So far im loving this little revolver
image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg
 
Mr. Mosin said:
There's this thing.... it's called "Ruger only loads". I've never heard of a "S&W only load".
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that only applies to the 45 colt cartridge in the blackhawk, or redhawk. no one, to my knowledge, has done that (ruger only) to any other cartridge.

that said, I have shot "ruger only" loads in my 45 cal. blackhawk since I bought it in 2000. that gun has a perfect cylinder/barrel diameter relationship and can shoot most anything most anywhere most accurately. no guarantees on other blackhawks chambered for the 45 colt, though.

luck,

murf
 
labnoti said:
My noting your lack of skills is not an insult, but if you lack the humility to accept the facts, you are only going to set yourself back, and if you also stubbornly resist all better advice, you will probably make foolish choices to your own detriment alone.

You've made several statements about a dearth of funds available for all your firearms passions. I suspect that you cannot afford to buy a lot of reloading equipment and that you don't have a lot of space to keep it all, and that if you did, you would almost certainly prefer to spend the money on your lust for more guns. I also have serious doubts that you will be willing to spend any of your scarce resources on professional training.

It seems to me if you are serious about becoming proficient with a revolver, that the best advice that you might be able to accept would be to acquire a double-action .22LR revolver and work with what resources you have to learn to shoot it well -- that is your friend who can advise you in person, the range(s) at which you can shoot, the ammo you can afford, and the time you have for learning. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you'll just be spending your limited money on a big-bore fetish that will never see serious use, all the while a neglect also falls upon more meaningful priorities in your life for the money you spent on the magnum fantasy. I do hope that you don't see this as an insult or humiliation, but as some good advice by which you could begin a path to becoming a serious power with a revolver. If there is anything to be derided of the image I've painted of the foolish alternative, it will be from that better path that you can look upon it with a contempt of your own and satisfaction knowing it is not you.
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this whole post is a brazen personal attack and has no business on this forum. suggest the op disregard and concentrate on productive posts.

murf
 
murf said:
that only applies to the 45 colt cartridge in the blackhawk, or redhawk. no one, to my knowledge, has done that (ruger only) to any other cartridge.

that said, I have shot "ruger only" loads in my 45 cal. blackhawk since I bought it in 2000. that gun has a perfect cylinder/barrel diameter relationship and can shoot most anything most anywhere most accurately. no guarantees on other blackhawks chambered for the 45 colt, though.

luck,

murf
Click to expand...

The only other cartridge I have seen this done commonly with is 45-70. You see "traditional loads" that are safe for all 45-70 guns and you see Marlin loads that are only safe in modern Marlin 45-70 lever-guns and similar new strong action 45-70's rifles.
 
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Ummm...I probably missed this if it was asked in the previous three pages, but what's your intended use (or uses?)
 
Like I said in the other thread, a lot of it depends on what you want, what you want to do and how you want to get there. Lots of folks choose the .357 because it's compatible with .38Spl and ammo is cheap. All else is secondary. The .45Colt (or the .44Mag and .44Spl to a lesser extent) will cover ALL the .357's capabilities and much, much more. With moderate loads using cast bullets in the 240-270gr range at 900-1000fps they offer much more terminal effect with much less noise and muzzle blast than anything possible out of the .357. To gain effect, you increase bullet weight, not velocity. Which increases effect dramatically without a dramatic increase in recoil. You have to decide for yourself if this appeals to you because to get the most out of these cartridges requires handloading.

Lots of folks implement the .357 as a "do everything" chambering and that is fine but I am not one of them. I own a few but get along fine without the .357. For me the big bores have greater utility with less pressure, recoil and blast.

Any discussion relating to competition is really irrelevant if you are not going to shoot competitively. A tuned Ruger is just as slick as a tuned S&W. The new S&W's are no smoother than the new Rugers. The ONLY advantage to the S&W is the quicker trigger return. This is why Jerry Miculek has been shooting them for decades, because he can actually outrun the trigger return of any other Ruger, Colt, Dan Wesson, etc..

There are no S&W .45's that will handle "Ruger only" loads for very long. Sure, the .460 will but who cares? It's five pounds and designed for a 65,000psi, 1.6" case.

There are "Ruger only" loads in the .44Mag. The Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ is such a load and Brian Pearce has provided 50,000psi data in Handloader magazine. I shoot loads out of my Rugers that are too long for the S&W's cylinder but if they weren't, they would rattle a S&W loose in short order.

Capacity is overrated, especially in revolvers. Unless it's a .22LR........
 
It surprises me sometimes that people are so fascinated by the diameter of pistol bullets. I know that 45 sounds a lot bigger than 38, but the difference between .357 and .451 is a squinch under 1/10 of an inch. The face of a .451 inch diameter cylinder has a surface area of 16/100 of a square inch; the face of .357 inch cylinder is 10/100 of a square inch. Once again, this sounds big in percentage terms, but it is still a difference of just 6/100 of a square inch. It seems to me that the kinetic energy and construction of the bullet is of much great significance than these relatively small differences in dimensions.

On the other hand, I agree with Ratshooter that empirical evidence trumps abstract theory. For example, in two loads with similar kinetic energy, the one with the heavier bullet is going to have heavier felt recoil, which is a distinct factor in actual shooting. It is quite possible, therefore, that I am entirely wrong in my view of the importance of caliber.
 
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CraigC said:
Like I said in the other thread, a lot of it depends on what you want, what you want to do and how you want to get there. Lots of folks choose the .357 because it's compatible with .38Spl and ammo is cheap. All else is secondary. The .45Colt (or the .44Mag and .44Spl to a lesser extent) will cover ALL the .357's capabilities and much, much more. With moderate loads using cast bullets in the 240-270gr range at 900-1000fps they offer much more terminal effect with much less noise and muzzle blast than anything possible out of the .357. To gain effect, you increase bullet weight, not velocity. Which increases effect dramatically without a dramatic increase in recoil. You have to decide for yourself if this appeals to you because to get the most out of these cartridges requires handloading.

Lots of folks implement the .357 as a "do everything" chambering and that is fine but I am not one of them. I own a few but get along fine without the .357. For me the big bores have greater utility with less pressure, recoil and blast.

Any discussion relating to competition is really irrelevant if you are not going to shoot competitively. A tuned Ruger is just as slick as a tuned S&W. The new S&W's are no smoother than the new Rugers. The ONLY advantage to the S&W is the quicker trigger return. This is why Jerry Miculek has been shooting them for decades, because he can actually outrun the trigger return of any other Ruger, Colt, Dan Wesson, etc..

There are no S&W .45's that will handle "Ruger only" loads for very long. Sure, the .460 will but who cares? It's five pounds and designed for a 65,000psi, 1.6" case.

There are "Ruger only" loads in the .44Mag. The Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ is such a load and Brian Pearce has provided 50,000psi data in Handloader magazine. I shoot loads out of my Rugers that are too long for the S&W's cylinder but if they weren't, they would rattle a S&W loose in short order.

Capacity is overrated, especially in revolvers. Unless it's a .22LR........
Click to expand...

I have absolutely no intention on competition shooting with this. Have considered a .44 Spl though
 
Monac said:
It surprises me sometimes that people are so fascinated by the diameter of pistol bullets....
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Because what handguns have going for them are diameter and mass, not velocity. To improve terminal effect, increases in diameter and mass are going to yield FAR greater improvements than velocity, which is the most limited and the least important. Kinetic energy can be left out of the equation altogether.
 
Mr. Mosin said:
Open carry w/ a belt rig. Perfectly happy with a snub .38 for concealment (it beats any .380). Woods gun, hiking gun, and nightstand gun.
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If you plan on hiking with an N frame, expect to wear a Sam Browne belt or shoulder rig.
Heavy guns will tend to pull your pants down otherwise.
For a woods gun, what woods are you talking about? Grizzly country? Cartel country? Wild pigs? Rattlers?
Very different requirements.
 
Monac said:
It surprises me sometimes that people are so fascinated by the diameter of pistol bullets. I know that 45 sounds a lot bigger than 38, but the difference between .357 and .451 is a squinch under 1/10 of an inch. The face of a .451 inch diameter cylinder has a surface area of 16/100 of a square inch; the face of .357 inch cylinder is 10/100 of a square inch. Once again, this sounds big in percentage terms, but it is still a difference of just 6/100 of a square inch. It seems to me that the kinetic energy and construction of the bullet is of much great significance than these relatively small differences in dimensions.

On the other hand, I agree with Ratshooter that empirical evidence trumps abstract theory. For example, in two loads with similar kinetic energy, the one with the heavier bullet is going to have heavier felt recoil, which is a distinct factor in actual shooting. It is quite possible, therefore, that I am entirely wrong in my view of the importance of caliber.
Click to expand...

Diameter is most definitely important and significant. Bullet construction is very important as well. Kinetic energy as a measure of lethality is useless. That said, I believe velocity also plays a significant role as more velocity will create more damage.
 
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John Joseph said:
If you plan on hiking with an N frame, expect to wear a Sam Browne belt or shoulder rig.
Heavy guns will tend to pull your pants down otherwise.
For a woods gun, what woods are you talking about? Grizzly country? Cartel country? Wild pigs? Rattlers?
Very different requirements.
Click to expand...
Wild pigs, Rattlers, and very, very rare black bears
 
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