Pocket Gun

DesertVet said:

View attachment 872552 I have several pocket pistols but my other half and I usually have an LCP at least on our person.

Click to expand...

Do you significantly favor any one over the others?


Todd.

I like the LCP for what it is.
Very light and easy to conceal in a pocket.
The Seecamp is heavier but it fits in smaller pockets.
I use whatever tool fits my pocket best at the particular situation.
J Frame in a pocket is my cargo shorts yard work option.

I will even move down to a North American Arms mini if it’s all I can get away with for a second gun depends on what I am doing and how I am dressed.

DesertVet said:

View attachment 872568

Click to expand...

Your image reminded me of one of my Bowie Knives.

Pocket carry? A S&W M442 or a Kel-Tec P-32 when very small is necessary.

Kleanbore said:

Alrighty then.

Having observed numerous students in realistic defensive training using many different firearms, and having a pretty good understanding of Newtonian physics, I do not find that claim to be credible.

I referred to a post from someone who wanted to carry in a pants pocket.

There is nothing faster than a pocket pistol in a jacket pocket when the defender is already grasping it. And that can usually be accomplished with discretion. Usually.

But pocket carry offers no advantage over a waistband holster, and if the defender is sitting, pants pocket carry can be a poor choice.

Click to expand...

Kleanbore said:

Folks, simply posting pictures is not very helpful. Anyone can find them. Try for some value-added.

Click to expand...

Kleenbore, I find your underestimation of the pocket gun as a defense weapon to actually be enlightening. I am delighted that your understanding of Newtonian physics is so flawed. And obviously you have not had students that are capable with a pocket gun. You might try and actually seek out students that are.
As far as sitting. My Gosh, simply take out of the pocket and place where fast draw is possible. No hard thing do, any more than taking a set of keys out of your pocket. And there are so many places to conceal a pocket gun and for fast draw. And with consistent training ,grasping a Pocket gun can obviously be much faster than you are willing to accept. I know of folks that know them like the back of their own hand. Shooting on a consistent basis with rapid fire to center mass can become a natural reflex. And a bigger heavier weight firearm with more mass is not always the winner at short distances.
It is akin to saying that someone that juggles Basketballs is more capable than one that can juggle golf balls. I know personally this is not true. What might be a better is to dedicate yourself to shooting the Pocket gun on a diligent basis for a few years and then come back and report.
In the meantime, I would say this. Never underestimate your enemy.

Beat on it? Man I am just responding to your comments. The basketball analogy was in reference to your "Draconian" view of physics. And as far as others, please keep on posting your Pictures.Sometimes a picture say's a thousand words.

And your comment that when you sit at a lunch table, you do not want to draw your gun? Come on man, use common sense. I have a feeling you have never carried a pocket gun and have very little knowledge of them.
At this point, how about we just become gentlemen and agree to disagree.

I pocket carry daily and it works well for me. I do however move my revolver from my pocket to the car console before strapping into the seatbelt.

To address the consternations seeming to grow here, I think it's worth noting that the debate between a *pocket gun* or other firearm is often NOT a choice and in that case, debating the relative merits or detractors of a *pocket gun* is; moot, disingenuous, generally off-topic and argument-mining as an activity.

Case in point, one of the most difficult to defend and conversely EASIEST to malign of pock guns could be argued to be the NAA .22. I, however, keep one in most of my tool boxes for multiple reasons.
1) They drop into a pocket of coveralls or any other clothing as well as hang around my neck better than most anything available when following factors are taken into account as well.
2) Stainless I need NEVER worry about.
3) Inexpensive enough to have SEVERAL to spread liberally.
4) .22 is inexpensive, relatively quiet and of KNOWN lethality.
5) Exceptionally easily palmed in cases of heightened alertness.
6) Astoundingly reliable.

I'm sure there are more but here's a note to my original point. I may arrive at the shop with as much as a 9x23, .357 or .45 ACP on my hip but I'm not carrying it around the shop if I'm spending the evening working on cars or motorcycles so RATHER THAN being un armed, I grab and pocket one of several NAAs.

Showing here that it's not a matter of whether I strap a serious gat on or lazy-out to an NAA but rather a matter of the NAA or nothing. Now, too, in some cases my AMT Back-Up, SIG230 or S&W 340SC, etc... may be in a pocket instead but that does not diminish the value of the most diminutive of *pocket guns*; my NAA .22s.

Also, this is not really a thread about whether or not a pocket gun in general or a particular pocket gun is a good idea or not but rather; "Hey guys, I'm thinking of a pocket gun and started looking at these... what's your input?"


Todd

ApacheCoTodd said:

....4) .22 is inexpensive, relatively quiet and of KNOWN lethality....

Todd

Click to expand...

Stopping the threat is - or should be - our goal in self-defense. .22 is absolutely NOT known to be very reliable for that.

Yeah. 22 might kill a lot of people, but fat lot of good that does you when your assailant dies three days later from the infection. After you already died on the spot when he crushed your skull.

What?
Nobody has brought up the possibility of multiple attackers with nuclear suicide vests and air support?
As Mae West might have said:"Is that an M2 in your pocket, or are you glad to see me?"
The Mossad has successfully employed .22 pistols---ten rounds on target at close range is a proven killer---and when a pocket gun comes into play, it will most often be at close get off me range.
If you're intent on shooting the piano player from across the saloon, there are better tools.
Just saying.

I shoot full size 9mm and snubbies in competition . I shoot a 1911 similarly. I shoot both well. My experience that the belt guns are easier and more accurate. Note I shoot the pocket guns a lot. In the past few months I have shot IDPA with two different Js. I also put several hundred rounds through them at a square range. Some of the matches were special short range matches.

My friend, Karl Rehn has thoroughly researched this. There is no debate that you can shoot the little guys well, you are better with the larger guns. To argue otherwise just embarrasses the poster.

GEM said:

I shoot full size 9mm and snubbies in competition . I shoot a 1911 similarly. I shoot both well. My experience that the belt guns are easier and more accurate. Note I shoot the pocket guns a lot. In the past few months I have shot IDPA with two different Js. I also put several hundred rounds through them at a square range. Some of the matches were special short range matches.

My friend, Karl Rehn has thoroughly researched this. There is no debate that you can shoot the little guys well, you are better with the larger guns. To argue otherwise just embarrasses the poster.

Click to expand...

I will certainly argue this when comes to distances. Yes, you can shoot the larger guns better at longer distances but not necessarly at shorter distances. To lump all shooters in to one category is not going to work here. But no I am not better with a larger gun at short distance unless of course you are talking about target shooting and the guys I know that shoot the pocket guns well, do not spend much time target shooting. And your comment "to argue other wise just embarrasses the poster" is condescending. You have a right to your opinion,but your comment is not worthy of the high road standards.

This is getting kind of snitty.

John, Mossad uses suppressed .22s in a very limited range of applications. And those guys have mad skills. (edit; see Browning's following post)

I have a variety of pocket guns. The only time I carry a small .22 , .32 , or .380 by itself is in summer when clothing is sparse and I don't want to print.

My Colt Mustang was a terrible jammer. I got rid of it but found a Colt Government .380 that eats obediently. I sometimes carry it as a backup when my main gun is a 1911.

I like to pair guns with the same controls (or lack thereof) Kahr with Glock, etc. etc.

C'mon guys, don't need to get worked up. This is THR.

John Joseph said:

What?
Nobody has brought up the possibility of multiple attackers with nuclear suicide vests and air support?
As Mae West might have said:"Is that an M2 in your pocket, or are you glad to see me?"
The Mossad has successfully employed .22 pistols---ten rounds on target at close range is a proven killer---and when a pocket gun comes into play, it will most often be at close get off me range.
If you're intent on shooting the piano player from across the saloon, there are better tools.
Just saying.

Click to expand...

When you have the equivalent training that Mordechai Rachamim had where you can place .22 bullets with eye ball accuracy then I guess that makes sense.

The other Mossad agents who were using them were assassins, they were ambushing Palestinian extremists and terrorists. They could’ve used anything, doesn’t really matter. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

When someone doesn’t have that training (and they’ve spent most of their time on a static range banging away on targets a few yards away and their “training“ consists of a CHL class) they might want to have some room for error if they get a singular non-vital hit which might cause enough damage to get them to quit with an “Oh fudge, I’ve been shot ... I better get to a hospital”.

With a .22 to the extremities of someone who’s blood is up they sometimes don’t even know they’ve been shot until later.

I have arthritis in my hands from many years of shooting major power factor USPSA revolver class, Single Stack and using various alloy J frames. I started using a 22LR Beretta Model 71 and letting my paws take a rest. Dumping 3-5 rounds on target is very easy and quick. Later I rented a SIG 938 and discovered that its recoil hurt me less then the J frames. The 9mm has a bit more power and magazine capacity, cost less then 38 SPL and I was already reloading for it.
So the Beretta is my practice gun and the SIG is the carry gun. Very similar size and weight. Controls and grip angle seem to match my needs.
A SIG 22LR would be ideal.
The width of the grip where recoil impacts my hand between the thumb and forefinger seems to bear a great deal on the amount of perceived pain.

The high standards of THR mean we call out inaccurate claims. Matches, competition and experimental tests mean more than some guys someone knows.

Browning said:

”.

With a .22 to the extremities of someone who’s blood is up they sometimes don’t even know they’ve been shot until later.

Click to expand...

The same could be said about the 9mm or even the .45---which is supposed to be able to founder a horse, according to the Army's specifications.
With meth so prevalent even that's no longer a given.
The subject is pocket pistols, the range is close and for time, well there probably won't be any. The usual scenario of a high velocity round expanding into a ninja throwing star and creating all kinds of damage probably won't be appreciated unless the CNS is the target, which is the same target "lesser" center fire cartridges or even .22s need to hit to accomplish what needs doing.
Just like Mossad assassins.

People who rely on pocket pistols know this and (or should) train efficiently towards that end.

Which is more likely? That someone will fail to notice being shot with or be physically affected after being shot in a non-vital area by a .22 rimfire or by a centerfire handgun cartridge like the 9mm or .45 ACP?

In my experience of treating dozens of people shot in the arms and legs with all three I can tell you it’s more likely to happen with smaller cartridges like the .22LR and .25 ACP although you are right, they may not notice or be dissuaded at all.

If the GSW doesn’t lead to rapid blood loss, exsanguination and death or instant paralysis the only thing that might dissuade them from continuing the attack is if they feel sufficiently injured to seek medical attention.

So because they may not be affected or notice with anything even if shot to pieces your idea is to go with the smallest of the bunch?

I’ve seen more gunshot wounds to some place other than the central nervous system that caused the individual in question to quit what they were doing and run or lay down on the ground with their arms and legs spread and their hands in plain sight. Most of the gunfights I’ve seen aren’t ended in dome, heart or spine splitting shots.

.22LR pistols don’t make much sense except in the light of it's better to be armed with something instead of nothing, but then it doesn’t have to. Completely up to you as a person.

GEM said:

The high standards of THR mean we call out inaccurate claims. Matches, competition and experimental tests mean more than some guys someone knows.

Click to expand...

Browning said:

Which is more likely? That someone will fail to notice being shot with or be physically affected after being shot in a non-vital area by a .22 rimfire or by a centerfire handgun cartridge like the 9mm or .45 ACP?

In my experience of treating dozens of people shot in the arms and legs with all three I can tell you it’s more likely to happen with smaller cartridges like the .22LR and .25 ACP although you are right, they may not notice or be dissuaded at all.

If the GSW doesn’t lead to rapid blood loss, exsanguination and death or instant paralysis the only thing that might dissuade them from continuing the attack is if they feel sufficiently injured to seek medical attention.

So because they may not be affected or notice with anything even if shot to pieces your idea is to go with the smallest of the bunch?

I’ve seen more gunshot wounds to some place other than the central nervous system that caused the individual in question to quit what they were doing and run or lay down on the ground with their arms and legs spread and their hands in plain sight. Most of the gunfights I’ve seen aren’t ended in dome, heart or spine splitting shots.

.22LR pistols don’t make much sense except in the light of it's better to be armed with something instead of nothing, but then it doesn’t have to. Completely up to you as a person.

Click to expand...

Just curious Browning, I take it you work in a emergency room, EMT?