Pietta J.H. Dance and Brothers .36 Project

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Jim, almost everything you want can be accomplished with a lot of elbow grease and some large flat files - it would take you about a week or two I believe. The cylinder, the barrel, the recoil shields - it all can be done by hand with quite satisfactory results, but it will take time. And lots of it to do it right. As for the blueing - have you considered rust blue? Brownells offers readily made solutions and while that kind of blueing is not 100% historically correct, it does look good and it's sturdy. It has that satin look, but done right it's a great finish. Wish you luck with your project and do keep us informed how it advances!

P.S. I have read some very positive reviews about Art's Belgian Blue solution - it's not an ordinary cold blue (search for the MSDS), but more like a cross between a cold blueing and hot salts blueing. And people are quite satisfied with it's appearance and durability. Here is a link for it: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1861810891/arts-belgian-blue-cold-blue-liquid

I will have to investigate all of your information. The only rust blueing I have ever done was in 1969 when my Dad and I reblued his Winchester Model 12 with Herter's Belgian Blue, which required a hot tank on a Coleman camp stove. It took many hours of applications and steel wool but it turned out very well.

It was very much fun but I am not up to that these days. I would rather have a machinist with an accurate end mill to remove the recoil shields.

Mizar, I do not want a blued frame, rather a case color frame.

Thanks for all of your comments. I am going to sit back and digest it all.

Jim
 
Tommy,

I am a rank noob, so don't take my word for it.

Talk to Mike

http://www.goonsgunworks.com/

for the straight skinny on this. He also creates many other improvements like a cap rake, springs, et al. I have learned a lot from his posts and talking to him on the phone. He is a very nice guy but likes to talk, and one must take in every word he says because he is not just saying things to prop up his business. I think it is kept all in his head and he knows it all by heart. A genuine good guy.

IMO, he is the last word when it comes to pretty much perfecting Italian replica 1851 Navy revolvers. He is so well known that he probably has a year or more backlog on guns folks like you and have sent to him, and his prices are very decent for the work done.

His fave guns are Dragoons with conversion cylinders, hence the name "goon".

Keep him in mind, please.

Jim

I'm very aware of Goon and respect the work he does. In no way was I claiming that he was wrong about the arbor problem; as I said my own examinations confirmed it is very real.
I've thought about having some of my more favored Ubertis goonerized (fixed arbor) but I have a lot on my plate right now.
 
I have searched high and low for a new Pietta G&G .36 just for the plain cylinder and the part octagon/part round barrel to no avail for the past 2 years. I should have bought 2 of them in 2015 from Cabela's in hindsight. I like to mix and match Pietta 1851 Navy type parts. I have a Pietta G&G from Cabela's and I may have bought the last one they had.
Regards,
Jim

Update: I have been in contact with my French gun friends on:

http://repliquesoldwest.superforum.fr/forum

as one of them gave me a link to the Pietta Italian website https://www.pietta.it/home-pietta-eng

which is much different than the Pietta US site. They informed me that the G&G .36 was readily available in Europe, and that it was actually one of the most inexpensive pistols to buy. I emailed Pietta there and they promptly informed me that EMF Firearms in CA gets at least one shipment about every month from Pietta. I emailed EMF about this as they have listed the G&G as temporarily out of stock for 2 years. I have not had a reply from EMF but this morning the G&G is not out of stock on their website.

If anyone is interested in one, this may be the last place to go. I emailed Cabela's about this and the responder replied that they will pass it up to the purchasers at that company.

I like it primarily for the barrel and cylinder, and the rest of the pistol can be used as a Schneider & Glassick with the octagon barrel if you have a spare plain cylinder on a Pietta 1851 Navy .36. The barrel and cylinder from the G&G can become a Leech & Rigdon on a steel frame. If you can obtain it from VTI or Taylor's, the barrel and cylinder will cost in excess of $140, which is almost the cost of a new pistol.

I wish all of you G&G fanciers good luck.

Regards,

Jim
 
IDK, How good you are with a rasp and a file but you can get some 1851 36 brass guns on sale for 185.oo they come with plain (UN-engraved) cylinders. I've turned a few down to a round barrel by filling. Basically pay 185.oo( compared to G&G prices) and a few days tooling and have a cheap brass 36 cal with a round barrel.

If sum1 wanted a round barrel and a plain cylinder it would be a easy project. Besides I think filling marks and hand tool marks would resemble an original look.
 
I'm slightly tempted to buy a G&G from EMF.

The problem is, I'd rather have another 1851 Navy as the one I have is lonely all by itself and I like pairs.
 
I'm slightly tempted to buy a G&G from EMF. The problem is, I'd rather have another 1851 Navy as the one I have is lonely all by itself and I like pairs.

I got an email from EMF this morning (dated yesterday) which explains a lot. EMF seems to be the only importer of Pietta G&G .36 pistols in the US. Pretty much explanatory: get on their backorder list if you want one.

"Thank you for contacting us. While it is true this model is frequently out of stock, it is not true that we receive it every month. Yes, we receive monthly shipments of a mix of models, from Pietta. The Griswold & Gunnison is so popular we can't keep it in stock. When a shipment of them does come in, we call those customers on the back order list first and usually are out of stock by the time we are half way through the list.

If you would like to be on the back order list, please provide the best phone number to contact you when they are back in stock.

Sincerely,

Jazmin Haver

Customer Service
EMF Company, Inc.
Ph. (800) 430-1310 | (949) 261-6611
Fx. (949) 756-0133

-----Original Message-----

From: James Padberg [mailto [email protected]]

Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 1:11 PM

To: EMF - Info <[email protected]>

Subject: Customer Service Request - SKU: PF51BRGG36712

You have listed a Pietta G&G .36 as out of stock for nearly 2 years. I contacted Pietta in Italy and they stated they ship things to you almost every month. They have this pistol ready to ship to you, and many of my friends want one. I bought my last one from Cabela's in 2016 and I want another. Advise as to what you will do."

Just FYI.

Jim
 
Fingers, those are awesome G&G's.

Jim, that explains a lot. If one wants a new G&G they must backorder from EMF.
 
G'day Jim,
First post on this fine site, so, I'll jus' dive on in!
Seems we have a common problem or problems. I, too, have been contemplating a .36 Dance project for some time now & have arrived at a similar conclusion, albeit, for slightly different reasons.I have a 1972 Euroarms Steel frame .36 with octagonal barrel,plain cylinder, excellent, unfired condition, which was to be the donor piece. Straightforward to machine the barrel to suit, but, to me, the stumbling block is the frame. On this particular frame the right side cap relief is machined deep enough that when the recoil shield is machined off there's still a significant 'divot' left on the frame. Not what's required at all. I haven't been able to find a steel .36 frame with a shallower cap relief, tho' there's plenty of older brass frames that would fit the bill, but, a brass Dance. Nope. Wonder if this is the reason Pietta/Uberti aren't interested in producing a .36 flat frame piece.
So, the Euroarms will become a Leech & Rigdon methinks.
A hair off-topic, but, still BP, any thoughts on short barrel Confederate produced pieces? I've been able to find 2 pics only ( same piece, in Confederate Arms & The Original Confederate Colt ) of a C H Rigdon, 12 Stop Cylinder .36 with a 5" barrel. I'm thinking this could be the next project. My current herd consists of a 2010 Lemat Cavalry, 2014 Pietta Dance .44, 1977 ASM 3rd Dragoon,1973 Uberti Griswold, 1975 Pietta Griswold,2007 Pietta Spiller & Burr, 2 more S & Gs, 1 kit gun & 1 defarbed & engraved, & the Euroarms .36. Some useful 'donors' here I reckon.
I envy the readily available spares on your side of the planet - not so much here with only 1 importer & tight import regs.
Off to say' G'day 'to the Lemat afficionados now.
Cheers, Ian.
 
Something I thought of while/since reading this thread on Tuesday... I've always seen the note on the brass frame listings and figured stick with steel frames, but in the case of a Dance & Bros. or G&G, I wonder what would happen if...

MidwayUSA has conversion parts... cylinder, recoil shield with loading gate, and jig.

...such were applied to a brass frame revolver. A .36cal gets a .38spl cylinder. The new recoil shield is steel... would it still shoot loose because it's still mounted to brass?

I remember reading one of Louis Lamour's novels... one of the Sackett cousins ended up with a Dance & Bros. in .44cal, IIRC, that had been converted to cartridge, but I don't recall which .44 cartridge it was.
 
I've wondered that myself! My guess would be the recoil shield would keep the arbor from coming loose faster.

If these gun were gunmetal, instead of brass," possible a certain percent of lead in the mix," they would hold up better.

Has anyone every found any info on the brass? The amount of Copper and Zinc? Different Manufacturers would have different percentages similar to cartridge brass, say Pietta vs Uberti could vary. Always been curious, even if they contain any amount of lead?
 
I've always seen the note on the brass frame listings and figured stick with steel frames, but in the case of a Dance & Bros. or G&G, I wonder what would happen if...

Dance frames were all made from iron, not brass.

I've wondered that myself! My guess would be the recoil shield would keep the arbor from coming loose faster.

If these gun were gunmetal, instead of brass," possible a certain percent of lead in the mix," they would hold up better.

Has anyone every found any info on the brass? The amount of Copper and Zinc? Different Manufacturers would have different percentages similar to cartridge brass, say Pietta vs Uberti could vary. Always been curious, even if they contain any amount of lead?

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/question-about-bronze.471893/#post-5871017

"However, I did analyze (X-ray fluorescence, no damage to the finish) the frame of one Spiller & Burr. It was right on the money for what today we would call "Valve Bronze", a.k.a. "Navy M", a.k.a. "Steam Bronze", UNS No. C92200. The chemical analysis is 88% copper, 6% tin, 4% zinc and 1.5% lead. The lead helps make a sound casting, but it does nothing good for the strength. Spiller & Burr I believe started with raw copper, zinc and tin, so made exactly the alloy they wanted."

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-from-brass-frames.656324/page-4#post-8149081

"The content of the bronze alloy commonly referred to as Gunmetal was 80-88% copper, 10-15% tin, and 2-5% zinc. Small amounts of lead were sometimes added to make it flow better for casting. The frame of a Winchester Model 1866 analyzed with modern techniques revealed the alloy was 80% copper, 14.5% Tin, 2% zinc, and .5% lead. Why are these guns referred to as 'brass framed' when they are actually a type of bronze? Because gunwriters have called them that for decades and it is too late to change it now.

Bronze cannon from the 15th Century were usually copper with 10-15% tin, no zinc.

As far as what modern manufacturers are using in their brass framed guns, a couple of years ago I had brass from the sideplate of an Uberti Henry analyzed by a process known as X Ray Fluorescent Analysis. The result was 56% copper, 44% zinc. Not a trace of tin. So much for advanced, improved, modern alloys being used today."

Regards,

Jim
 
Been pining for a Pietta steel gripframe London Navy .36, but yeah, it’s also backordered wt EMF whom appears the exclusive distributor of that model.
 
I need to get a Pietta some time. I hear very good things about them.

I am a Pietta 1851 Navy parts changer. VTI carries many Pietta parts that I have used for various revolvers.

I have 8 Pietta 1851 Navy .36 "type" revolvers in various flavors, mostly Confederate models. IMO, they are the "Legos" of BP 1851 revolver world in that all parts interchange (CNC machined since ~2000), with the exception of the "tail" 3-piece grip frame produced prior to 2015. As a 3-piece set (backstrap, trigger guard, wood) they will fit any Pietta frame to include the Pietta 1860 Army/1861 Navy.

Top: 2014 "tail" grip frame set.
Bottom: 2015 "non-tail" grip frame set.

Pietta-1851-Navy-Tail-Non-tail.jpg

Piettas also do not have the arbor/arbor recess problem that Ubertis have.

My rendition of a Pietta Colt 1851 Navy 2nd Model .36 Belt Dragoon (fantasy gun), smooth cylinder and part round/part octagon barrel parts gun. The squareback TG is a replacement for the original round TG. The wood is something I procured from a seller on Ebay and it fits very well. Something Colt never made and Pietta never marketed. Absolutely no fitting needed.

Pietta-1851-Navy-Dragoon.jpg

Regards,

Jim
 
Been pining for a Pietta steel gripframe London Navy .36, but yeah, it’s also backordered wt EMF whom appears the exclusive distributor of that model.

I got mine from EMF when they first advertised the Pietta London last year.
Its nice even if it doesn't have "LONDON" stamped on the barrel like the Ubertis.

Sorry about the Jedediah Starr link that I just removed. It was for an Uberti.

Marstar of Canada (prices in Canadian dollars!) lists the Pietta London but they are out too.
 
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Even economics would say that a plain cylinder is cheaper to produce because it does not need to be roll marked.

Looking at Pietta's website, which has not been updated for at least a decade, it appears that they used to create one a long time ago. Instead, they spend their time and money on such frivolities as the 1851 Navy .36 "pepperbox" and the Dance .44 which has a larger non-rebated cylinder than the 1851 Navy .36, requiring a lowered 1851 Navy frame (no cut water-table) to accommodate it. Parts swapping is not an option. There is another guy on this forum that I have not heard from in a couple of years that owns one and he steered me away from it because of those facts. He even provided comparison pics of the Pietta Dance .44 cylinder and a standard Pietta .36 cylinder, which I wish I had saved. What an eye-opener! I wish I could remember his username. He was spot on.

Thanks for the comment.

Regards,

Jim
Jim the navy cylinder can be utilized in the Dance frame and actually doesn’t look bad. The barrel would have to be changed also since the Dance uses the 44 barrel and has that style forcing cone. This would take some bolt mods but I have done it.
 
RC,

I was hoping you might be lurking and I apologize for not remembering your username. Those pics are exactly what I remembered. Thank you very much for reposting them! They are a very good visual insight as to how the .44 is not even close to .36 parts.

Thanks once again!



The EMF site has stated that the G&G they have listed is "temporarily out of stock" and has been for nearly 2 years. $235 is a fair price for a scarce pistol, but their shipping charges are very high even while I am located on the "left coast" north of them.



1861,

Thanks for the link, sir! Item #16 in the 1851 Navy section is the G&G I want (CFT36). I think I would have to contact Taylors or Old South here in the US and persuade them to order one for me and also find out if the cost is realistic.

That would solve my barrel, cylinder, load lever, latch, rammer and screws needs.

The next thing I would have to address is the additional purchase of a Pietta 1851 Navy .36 steel framed pistol. I have one but I would like to keep it as such. I could combine the brass framed pistol sans barrel assembly and cylinder with the barrel assembly and roll-marked Navy cylinder as a Schneider and Glassick pistol, but the cylinder would not be correct for a Confederate gun. I can deal with that later.

Once the Pietta 1851 Navy .36 steel is acquired, I still have to pay my machinist neighbor to mill off the recoil shields, polish the milled areas to match, and purchase the CC solution(s) to properly touch the frame up (or completely re-color the frame sides), and that will probably not be easy to do well.

This will be a spendy project and probably not be done until winter is over, but I think it will be somewhat of a unique Pietta pistol.

I wish Pietta would market one for $300+ on the US market and put me out of my misery. :)

Regards,

Jim
Jim save yourself the headache of touching up the colorcase, if you choose to go this route and just anneal and reblue the frame. The frames weren’t color cased on the originals.
 
Howdy folks!

Well, I've gone and done it now.

I happened upon the October Country Website http://www.octobercountry.com/ and found a few examples of a Pietta Dance .36 for sale earlier this week. Three of them (all with squareback trigger guards) were snatched up in 24 hours at a price of $275 each! All had serial numbers 127 or lower which really surprised me, as all of my other Pietta Navies have 6 digit serial numbers. This is S/N 127:

Pietta-Dance-36.jpg

I contacted them and they just told me to keep watching the site on a daily basis for the next few weeks, which I have been doing on a daily basis.

Yesterday (Friday) morning two cased Pietta Dance .36 revolvers with accoutrements showed up for $300 plus $25 shipping each and I grabbed this one. It also has a SB TG but I have a spare Pietta Navy round TG to replace it, if indeed it is based on a Pietta Navy frame. I won't know what I really bought until I have it in hand by the middle of next week. From the photo it looks to me as if it might have an 1860 Army length grip frame:

Pietta-Dance-36-Cased-001.jpg

This is the other one for the same price:

Pietta-Dance-36-Cased-003.jpg

According to the OC website, they purchased (at least part of) the collection of Dr. Jim L. Davis, who founded RPRCA (Replica Percussion Revolver Collectors Association). I am assuming Dr. Davis has passed on (he was in his 80's and in poor health when last conversed with him about 4 years ago). He used to maintain the RPRCA website, but if you try to access it lately none of the links on the site work and you are obliged to create an account (costing money) to proceed any further if you click on one. Save yourself the headache of trying to get out of that loop!

OC has a link on their site to at least some of what they purchased of the Davis collection. They have some nice offerings at what I think are fair prices for replica items that don't turn up often (if ever) to include two cased Patersons. Be forewarned that the item listing headers/descriptions often do not match the revolver shown, which leads me to believe that they are not aware of what they truly have. Rely on the photos for better information.

To wit: 1848 Dragoon CSA Augusta GA Schneider & Glassick (more like a Rigdon & Ansley with the 12-stop-slot cylinder on a Navy frame):

1848-Dragoon-CSA-August-GA-S-G001.jpg

I hope this has been some help for all of my compadres who are interested. I will keep everyone apprised on this thread of what I find when I take delivery of my Dance.

Regards,

Jim
 
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