M1A Question

Orlando said:

I haven't seen them for $20 for years. I thought maybe you had found them on sale somewhere

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This was 2-ish years ago and it was a sale. Again, wish I could remember where I got them. I’ll try to recreate my steps.

$28 from Midway isn’t bad.

I would agree on the CMI mags for the M14. I especially like the shiny stainless steel versions. They are very slick and seem to feed easier. I was always amazed the 308 action was strong enough to strip rounds off the phosphate coated mags.

I believe Classic Firearms sells James River Armory M14 clones. I don't know much about them, but they may be a good alternative that isn't too expensive.

IMO, if you start getting Springfield Armory M1A rifles with better and better options, their prices go through the roof to the point it is the same as Fulton and other.

I recall seeing documentary interviews about battles in the Pacific in WWII where GI's were using M1's against Japanese banzai charges. I remember one where the guy said he shot his rifle until it stopped and then picked up his injured buddies' rifle and continued. He said he was putting his boot on the bolt to get it to close the last few rounds until the attack was stopped. This was after going through quite a bit of ammo and it didn't cause a death than I am aware of (that wasn't mentioned). I believe the GI praised the rifle as he was still able to get it to fire even after all that.

It was the best rifle available at the time. Does that mean it is the best now? Likely not. Still pretty good. I have heard people say the FAL was better than the M14 then watched other videos about the shortcomings of that rifle and why it was replaced.

Another idea for a 30 caliber semi-auto rifle is the Special Grade M1 Garand from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. It is pretty much a completely refinished rifle with new barrel and new wood. I think the description says some parts may be new these days. It is still cheaper than an M1A and they shoot very nicely. I got a 1.5" group (5 shots) with Greek surplus on a standard target. The gas cylinder fits so tight you need a hammer and punch to get it off. Beautiful rifle. I think the only downside is many of the remaining receivers might be pitted.

I used to get my M14 mags from 44Mag, but I believe they have since gone out of business. They were a big supplier of CMI mags.

I have both a Standard M1a and a Socom16. I prefer the Socom16 for social purposes, it just handles a lot better for me than the 22" versions. The factory brake is loud just like any other, but I do not get any blast back, it really tracks nicely and shoots flat(no muzzle jump). I have seen the InRange tests and those two guys kill me, they should stick to the historical aspects. Every vet I know that carried either an M1 rifle or M14 never complained about reliability.

The Socom16 does have some peculiarities. The muzzle brake/gas cylinder lock is proprietary. You need things like a DeltaP adaptor or a SEI Socom16 gas lock if you want to run a can or other muzzle devices. SAI Socom16s have a small issue in the muzzle brake, there is a small gap between the muzzle and the rear interior face of the brake. This causes exiting gases to not flow evenly disturbing the bullets flight. This is a cause of the Socoms16 reputation of not being accurate. Tighten the gap and accuracy improves, couple of different way to do this.

Also, some do not like the scout rail and remove it, this can also change how your gun shoots. Some feel the factory rail isn't stout enough for a glass optic, the Ultimak is considered superior. I run a SIG Romeo5 red dot and it works fine, no heat issues so far. The front sight is fat and the rear aperture huge, ok for 50 yards or so. Some like changing the rear to a standard USGI aperture.

https://www.deltapdesign.com/products/deltapdesign/muzzleadapter/socom16/socom-muzzle-thread-adapter

www.smithenterprise.com/products03.01.html

Socom16 accuracy:

MTMilitiaman said:

The M14 is absolutely not more reliable than the AR/M16.

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I wish somebody would have told that to the grunts that were constantly trying to steal my M-14. When I got to Nam I was issued an M-14 because I was a REMF in a rear area. (Qui Nhon ) The first thing I was told was to guard it with my life and never let it out of my sight....because the infantry guys would steal it....literally! Because it was more powerful and more reliable than a 16.

Now, maybe it was more reliable than a 16 or maybe it wasn't, that's not the point. The point is that the grunts THOUGHT is was. A lot of the NCOs who were on their second or third tour still had memories of the earlier 16s that jammed or froze up, and men dying because of it.

ExAgoradzo said:

Thanks for noting:
No, I'm not a fan of muzzle blast.
I don't intend to hunt with it.
Iron sights would be all I'd use with this. I could see myself upgrading the sights if necessary.

Hmm...too long of barrel, hadn't thought of that. Both my Mini14 and my AR have ridiculously short barrels IMHO. The extra umph of the 308/7.62 would need a longer(ish) barrel...but how long is too long??? As I said, it isn't a hunting rifle, more of a plinking/I need to defend my castle against marauding hoards (not unthinkable in my area...).

Thanks for the input gentlemen...
Greg

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CMP Service Grade, or Special in either 30-06 or 308, M1 Garand.

10.5 lb./ 24" Bbl'ed/ aperture sighted... sweetness.

$750-$1,050, and certified and backed by the CMP.



GR

rodinal220 said:

The Socom16 does have some peculiarities. The muzzle brake/gas cylinder lock is proprietary. You need things like a DeltaP adaptor or a SEI Socom16 gas lock if you want to run a can or other muzzle devices. SAI Socom16s have a small issue in the muzzle brake, there is a small gap between the muzzle and the rear interior face of the brake. This causes exiting gases to not flow evenly disturbing the bullets flight. This is a cause of the Socoms16 reputation of not being accurate. Tighten the gap and accuracy improves, couple of different way to do this.

Also, some do not like the scout rail and remove it, this can also change how your gun shoots. Some feel the factory rail isn't stout enough for a glass optic, the Ultimak is considered superior. I run a SIG Romeo5 red dot and it works fine, no heat issues so far. The front sight is fat and the rear aperture huge, ok for 50 yards or so. Some like changing the rear to a standard USGI aperture.

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I've done some of that with my Socom16... I pulled the rail off, for 2 reasons: 1) the op rod was hitting the mount, and nicking it (not a good thing for the op rod...) and 2) because I really didn't intend to mount any sights on it, anyway, and it became a heatsink under sustained fire. I did shim my gas lock, that increased the accuracy by about 100% (2" @ 100yds vs 1") I also replaced the rear aperture with USGI, and even with the fat front post, it still helps with longer distances. My one little niggle with the Socom16 is the proprietary front sight... why didn't they just make the deck the same height as the standard rifle, so one could swap the FSP assembly if needed. If I were to mount any sort of glass or optic... the Ultimak would be the way to go, I think...

Mags:
https://www.brownells.com/magazines...a-10rd-magazine-308-winchester-prod27330.aspx

Pro tip: if your going to the NRA Annual Convention, CMI had Smokin deals on 20 rounders at Indy

Charlie98: what stock is on your Socom? are you using an optic(what mount if you are) or irons?

The rest of the Socom16 will respond to normal M14 accurizing procedures. As Charlie98 pointed out shimming the gas cylinder works or you can unitize the gas cylinder via the Army or USMC methods. Glass bedding the stock a little, trigger job, NM handguard mod aid in the accuracy dept, then voodoo stuff like different gas pistons may or may not help.

I know the OP said they do not want to add hundreds in up grades ,but two things I always add to M1a's is a David Tubb recoil spring and a Sadlak NM spring guide. They wont necessarily make your gun more accurate, although some do report accuracy improvements, but I guarantee you they make your rifle shoot a lot smoother. The Tubb spring should last a lifetime, a normal USGI spring is normally replaced every 3k rounds. These will cost you about $50 bucks total if you shop around/sales.

rodinal220 said:

Charlie98: what stock is on your Socom? are you using an optic(what mount if you are) or irons?

The rest of the Socom16 will respond to normal M14 accurizing procedures. As Charlie98 pointed out shimming the gas cylinder works or you can unitize the gas cylinder via the Army or USMC methods.

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Believe it or not, it's back in the SAI/USGI fiberglass stock. When I bought it, I also ordered a USGI walnut stock from Fred's. I was getting very poor accuracy with it, so, on a fluke, I just swapped it back into the 'glass stock, and *bam!* it tightened up the groups. Stock fitment MATTERS. Note, also, my stock is USGI, not the newer SAI plastic stock, which I believe is substandard to the USGI. Also, I don't believe you can unitize the Socom gas lock because of how it mounts... but don't quote me on that. Actually, the proper stack of shims tightened it right up... it takes a little trial and error to get it right... and a mallet (my gas lock was on so tight I had to drive it off...) but is well worth the time and $5.

Charlie98 said:

I call the M1 Garand and the M1a... 'very physical rifles' to shoot and operate. Everything is very slam, bam, chink-chink, pow! It's a lot of fun.

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rbernie said:

I like this description.

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You for got the very characteristic PING! How dare you, no go give me 20 laps with your M1 over your shoulder.

fpgt72 said:

That is a really good way to put it....years ago I raced American Sedan and ran a Mustang.....it was really fun, but in getting behind the wheel of a showroom stock 3 series that was "stock" it was so much more easy to go as fast in....you could go fast in the ford but one little mistake and it let you know it one way or the other.....the BMW was much more forgiving.

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(In the spirit of the you should have bought a glock/ak replies) You should have raced a Camaro in AS, everybody knows they are so much better than the Rustangs.



(In the interest of full disclosure I do not own a glock but did drive a Restricted Prep fourth gen Camaro in AS.)

jdh said:

(In the spirit of the you should have bought a glock/ak replies) You should have raced a Camaro in AS, everybody knows they are so much better than the Rustangs.



(In the interest of full disclosure I do not own a glock but did drive a Restricted Prep fourth gen Camaro in AS.)

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Adding to the mustang, my wife is a die hard chevy person, she calls the mustangs "disgustangs"

..

The Socom16 uses the same gas cylinder as the 22" M1a/M14.These can be unitized or swapped out for ones already done. Its forward of the gas cylinder where the Socom16 becomes proprietary. The Socom16 gas cylinder lock/muzzle brake and front sight base are all one piece,the barrel threads at the muzzle are different.. On the Scout variant and Standard M1a the front end is all M14,minus the bayo lug.

Ok... then that’s what I was thinking of... it’s been a while since I’ve had mine apart, and it’s out in NV right now, so I can’t take a peek.

I briefly had an M1A. It had the high 'over the action' scope mount, and I had to lean into it to use the scope, and it dinged my eyebrow. So I was looking at a stock with an elevated cheek piece, and an improved trigger AT LEAST to do what I wanted to with it. (Distance shooting out to 1000 m.) If that isn't what you want to do with it, then those things don't matter. I love the look, feel, and heritage of the rifle. But it's an 800+ meter rifle, when most people aren't going to use the iron sights past about 500. (If that.)

However, for what you are doing, I would honestly look at a basic LR-308 of some flavor. Even the basic DPMS 16" Oracle would do everything you are talking about just fine, for about $700, then you have the option to upgrade whatever you want to.

jdh said:

(In the spirit of the you should have bought a glock/ak replies) You should have raced a Camaro in AS, everybody knows they are so much better than the Rustangs.



(In the interest of full disclosure I do not own a glock but did drive a Restricted Prep fourth gen Camaro in AS.)

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I had the mustang.

The only "experience" I have with the M1A is Dad shooting his. From the "Captain's walk", the deck around the third floor of our old house, I saw him snipe at coyotes 400 to 600 meters away with good effect. Perhaps the coyotes were just smart alecs and playing dead to fool the old man.

As for the Garand... I remember one time I "beat" my grandfather in a rifle match and was foolish enough to console him that at his advanced age his eyes weren't what they used to be. He took offense and proceeded to "ring the bell" on the 200 meter target 8 times. Considering his claim of being the worst shot in his squad I can't help but feel sorry for the German soldiers that his squad met up with.

Now maybe, just maybe mind you, a skilled operator is able to take the deficiencies of a particular tool and use it to do work far beyond what popular wisdom says it's capable of.

jdh said:

(In the spirit of the you should have bought a glock/ak replies) You should have raced a Camaro in AS, everybody knows they are so much better than the Rustangs.
(In the interest of full disclosure I do not own a glock but did drive a Restricted Prep fourth gen Camaro in AS.)

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CAMARO = Can't America Make a Real One!

That said, I stand by my original statement... as with everything in life, use the tool to it's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses... the M14 platform is reliable with sensible maintenance. For the average civilian who isn't relying on one and cleans it after every use, an M14 or M1A will last a lifetime and provide VERY reliable service. I can't think of a single failure on mine in 2000+ rounds. I'd feel absolutely confident in running it in the zombie apocalypse if push came to shove. It IS a bit slower rifle to "run" than an AR platform so don't be in the situation where you have to run one hard if you HAVE to use one for something other than a plinking toy.

I went in the service in the winter of 1968 and had a difficult relationship with my issued M14... Since I was around 135lbs initially (basic actually added about 8lbs of muscle and grit...) that rifle was a bear to run or march with - and I had a difficult time qualifying well with it... but did manage to qualify at the expert level (just barely...). To put it mildly it beat me up until I complied with what was needed... Since I was assigned stateside as a pencil pusher that was that... until those funny looking new M16s came around and everyone had to qualify with them. The difference for me was night and day - I easily qualified at the expert level - but was not impressed at all with what happened on the few times we were allowed to go "full auto"...

I know that a lot of stuff about military weapons all these years later is personal preference, some of it nostalgia, parts of it from actual experience on the battle field... but what I've described was my actual experiences with those two weapon systems. For me those old M14 rifles hold no special place - maybe if I were physically bigger that might be a different story... When I finally did get to Vietnam three years later I was issued and carried a variety of firearms from pistols all the way up to the new AR with the grenade accessory.... but was still not a combat type.... and only experience small arms incoming once or twice in 1971... just enough to know I didn't like it at all...

From what I've read, those CMP re-fitted Garands with new 308 barrels have to be the most cost efficient way to get into an older style 30cal battle rifle... If that's what floats your boat...

Re: the Garand clip ping. My experience tells me that anytime you are involved in a high volume of fire situation, there is way too much noise to here that little ping.

2 things to note in a rifles use, no matter the rifle........

First, The magazine is inherently suspect, and losable. Mag's go bad way more then the guns themself, but its an obvious and a fixable problem with simple replacement.

Second; Dirt, gunk and such; Clean your gun and keep it clean.

Bolt guns, semi's , falling blocks, dont matter, mud and dirt/gunk and guts will make them fail.

One note here, in the Arctic, Kotzebue's NG 5th scout battalion kept M-14's in inventory for reliability until they were disbanded in the 90's.

I use an NM M-1A alot in the last year, been working out to 600 yards and Im happy as can be, reliability wise, and the original mag was my only failure (cracked feed lip)

7.62x51 would be my choice shooting our wide open range on the Tundra.