Help with understanding different types of ARs

1. Wow, this is a can of worms. These days many companies make a decent enough AR-15. DPMS, Springfield, Smith & Wesson, Ruger, and others. Top of the lines will give you better finishes,better/more doodads, higher end stocks/forends and sights (if so equiped; many like optical sights and only provide for those).

2. Pistols in ARS usually mean shorter barrels (like 5" or 8") and oddball "braces" that you velcro to your forearm.... except not really, you can use them as a short barrel rifle and that "brace" is a shoulder stock .... or used as one. A sort of work around the NFA S.B.R. law. In spite of the fact I own one I think they have little practical use, save to make gun grabber politicians irritable.

3.AR-10s have a longer magwell for .308 type ammo, and a larger bolt and carrier to handle those rounds. AR-15s have some type of mil-spec standardization, so there is a general agreement on compatible internal parts and some externals. AR-10s, no mil spec, and there's more than one type, and as I understand it, even differing magazines. Do research into this when buying.

4. I don't think there are any AR rifles that handle .30-'06. But AR-10 uses .308, it's shorter offspring. Most mags are 20 round, I've seen 25 round. I don't know about 30 round. There might be some drum style mags but those cost $$$$$.

5. Quite a number. .300 AAC Blackout derives from 5.56mm. and uses standard 5.56 magazines. I'm not sure I can give an extensive list of calibers.... heck, there's even pistol caliber ones.

6. Me, I'd go .308 for those critters. Other people have equally valuable opinions, or maybe better ones!

1. There are dozens and dozens of companies building AR's. I personally am skeptical that there is much difference between any of them other better barrels, better triggers, better barrels, and coatings that make cleaning easier. I would shop based on features, not based on brands.
2. I belive what you are refering to is pistol length gas systems, carbine length gas systems, midlength, and rifle length. This is the length of the gas tube. Different cartridges and barrel lengths require different length gas systems to function properly. Its not a big deal, this is pretty well figured out for most combinations.
3. An AR10 is the bigger brother to the AR15. It is chambered in 308 class cartridges and is much bigger in almost every dimension than an AR15 and much heavier when similarly equiped.
4. https://onlylongrange.com/bn36x3-long-range-270-25-06-30-06/
   
5. Common factory rounds are, 6.5 grendel, 6.8 spc, 300 blacklout, 7.62x39, 450 bushmaster, 458 soccom. There are many many more obscure wildcat cartridges.
6. I think I would buy a DPMS gen 2. This is a proprietary rifle that is kind of half AR15 and half AR10. Its chambered in 308 but they have managed to cut the size down to be very near the same size and weight as an AR15

[URL]https://www.dpmsinc.com/GII-Hunter_ep_235-1.html
https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/90760[/URL]

Item #6 is the only thing which really matters in your discussion - with Elk on the list, you’re really dividing yourself away from an AR-15, decisively towards a large frame AR-10, LR-308, or GII. For elk, deer, and hogs, I would personally carry a 6.5 creed, 7-08, 308, or 338 federal.

So your specifications for item #6 determine the importance for item #3: AR-15’s are pretty easy to mix and match, as there are very few compatibility issues among AR-15 parts (more now than there used to be, but still very few). But that really doesn’t matter for you, because you need more power than an AR-15 can offer. Alternatively, there are at least 3 common large format AR’s, the Armalite AR-10, the DPMS LR-308, and the DPMS GII. Different brands can buy licenses to produce on these 3 formats, or choose to build their own (isn’t Mega doing their own thing?). Most brands seem to have gravitated to the DPMS LR-308 design.

For Item #4 - no, there’s really not a long action 30-06 compatible AR platform out there. There are a few oversized super sized AR’s out there like the NEMO and the Noreen, not sure if they have made a .30-06, but really you’re looking at standard bolt face short action cartridges in AR-10 sized rifles (2.8” COAL and 0.473” rim), then the AR-15 is micro length cartridges with multiple common bolt faces (2.3” coal and .378”, .433”, .460”, and .487” bolt faces).

For item #5, there are dozens of chambering opportunities in both AR-15 and large format AR’s. 338 Federal is an option for increased impact in the LFAR, or .358 Winchester. There are more proprietary options like 358 Legend or .45 Raptor for the larger AR’s also which don’t fit into an AR-15, but personally, I don’t think these heavier bullets are as efficient and effective for elk, deer, and hogs as the 7-08, 308win, or 338 federal.

Personally, in your shoes, I would ask myself a serious question - how often will I hunt elk with this, and will the conditions agree with a heavier rifle than it needs to be? Hogs and deer can be effectively and efficiently taken with a lightweight 6.5 Grendel, while elk will often ask for a little more horsepower to deal with the game weight and range. The Grendel will also handle elk at moderate ranges, but an AR-10 in 7-08 or 308win is better medicine if elk are more commonly hunted.

Rifle used to mean 20 inch barrel and fixed stock, carbine 16 inch barrel shorter gas tube length and adjustable stock. There are so many options now I am not sure how you define them now.
I pretty much agree with Varminterror on actions and caliber.

Well, the military carbines have a 14.5" barrel length. That would require a short barrel rifle tax stamp in the civilian world so civilian carbines typically have 16" or slightly longer barrels.

Yeah, this is not a simple question--really hasn't been a simple, single, answer since the late 70s.

The lone and sole answer was Colt, the caliber was 5.56, and the barrel was 20" long (other than some spendy short carbines, and the ones with "fun" switches. If you were a very serious collector, and willing to front the tax stamp, there wre a very limited number of AR-10 afoot--largely Portugese. In 7.62nato only.

The market expanded in the 80s and right up to 1994. Many new manufacturers, options in barrel lengths, stocks, and the beginnings of caliber options (Colt had fielded the 9mm carbine by then, too).
Things slowed a bit during the federal AWB, but also expanded. More calibers were offered. The barrel lengths became more varied--from 16" to 24". The military adoption of the M4 introduced a brand new "pattern" to either emulate or collect.

That market simply exploded in 2004 when the awb expired. This is when the term "m4gery" (em Forgery) started cropping up. That was a milspec 14.5" barrle with a permanent muzzle device that brought the barrel to the legal 16" length without tax stamp. Adjustable stocks were the rule, and no longer the two position open/closed versions, but four and six position adjustable. "Carry" handles had become optional back with the A3, and the m4geries used that as a default. Later, we would see the front sight post become very optional, too.

So, the sky has become the limit, more or less.

Want a 22 or 24" barrel with a free-float in a caliber that let's you really reach out there in whatever caliber makes you happy.
Or you can gin up a patrol carbine in 5.56 that is light and handy.
Or you could build up a mid-range carbine in 16-18" using 7.62x39.
Or you can build a "pistol" with a short action and short barrel with a short arm brace (and you can get a pivot for that, too)
Fixed stock, adjustable--your choice.

Is any one better than the rest. Maybe. Arfcom certainly has a lot of opions (and profanity) on the topic.

About once a day I have to talk myself out of a Brownell's 601 as I'm pretty sure I don't need green furniture with tirangular handguards. Mostly.

If you wind up with a bit of a dog, you can swap the parts out, lefgo style, until it isn't a dog any more. This is what is fueling the huge popularity of the platform.

As others have pointed out you'll need an AR 10 to handle bigger rounds in the 308 class. But those get too heavy and unwieldy for my tastes to lug around in elk country. You'll have to do some work to keep the rifle and optics under 10 lbs. If I'm carrying a 10 lb rifle in elk country it would not be a 308 class cartridge.

For what I do with my AR's the 223 is more than adequate, the better bullets are more than adequate for deer size game. If I were tempted to shoot a bigger round from an AR it would probably be the 6.5 Grendel. With the right bullets it has been used for elk and bear. While I don't think it is ideal, it will get the job done under the right conditions. But I'd personally just use a 6-7 lb bolt gun in a 308, or 308 class cartridge if hunting game bigger than deer.

Welcome to the addiction and the rabbit hole. I had no interest in the AR15 platform for decades, then I was given two lower receivers to build with. Katy bar the door - Palmetto State Armory likes me now with the money I send them.
BTW, PSA is a great place to shop for ARs and AR stuff, budget friendly outfit with darn good quality stuff.

Noreen does make a 30-06 AR https://onlylongrange.com/bn36x3-carbine-30-06/
You might be a bit disappointed to see it only comes with a 20rnd mag.

The 'top tier' AR manufacturers that come to mind are Knights Armerment, Noveske, Daniel Defense. It's one of those 'ask ten people, get ten answers' sort of things.

The original AR-15 had a 20" barrel and a fixed stock, which is generally the 'rifle' configuration. A shorter barrel ( 16" being common) with an adjustable stock is generally considered a carbine, and a shorter barrel without a shoulder stock ( but often a 'forearm brace', which resembles a shoulder stock ) are recently popular. A shorter than 16" barrel with a shoulder stock is a 'Short Barrel Rifle' ( SBR) and requires a tax stamp.

You are probably referring to gas tube length, which are refered to as Rifle, Mid length, Carbine, Pistol. Basically, the longer the gas tube, the softer the action, though at some point, it gets close enough to the muzzle to have an adverse effect on accuracy- IIRC, about 7" back from the muzzle allows sufficient time for the bullet to clear the muzzle before the action opens.

An AR-10, other than barrel/chambering, needs a longer magwell, and a longer receiver to allow for a longer cartridge. One should also be aware that while almost all AR-15 components are interchangeable between manufacturers, AR-10 parts are often manufacturer specific.

An AR style rifle chambered in .30-06 would require an even longer receiver/magwell, etc.

There's a dizzying selection of calibers available for the AR-15/AR-10 rifles, for about any game you might want to hunt. Again, ask ten people, get ten answers...

Better cosmetic finishes, expensive furniture, doodads & sights does not a higher end AR make. You can put lipstick, high heels and a pearl necklace on a pig, convince a hapless frog to fall in love with it and you still have a pig. Cosmetic finishes, upgraded furniture, doodads and sights will not turn a hobby grade AR into a higher end AR. All that just turns a hobby grade AR into a hobby grade AR that costs far more than it's worth.

A shooter doesn't need to buy a high end AR to get a good AR. What makes a good AR is quality springs, a properly gassed barrel, bolt made to spec and the right buffer. Hobby grade ARs rarely use quality springs, often use gas ports that are too large and, when fitted with carbine type receiver extensions, use a buffer that's much too light. Sometimes, even the better AR makers use the wrong springs, gas ports or buffers.

Good AR makers are Colt, BCM, Sionics, Sons Of Liberty Gun Works and Centurion. Unless you've shot an AR enough to know what features you need and want, get a basic carbine and shoot it until you do.

308 ARs are a whole other kettle of fish and any that sell for less than $2000 have their own unique challenges to get them to run right. The 308 ARs that run well right out of the box have prices well north of $2k. Not saying a less expensive 308 AR cannot be made to work well, but it's a steep learning curve for the neophyte.

For elk hunting, a solid bolt action rifle is a far more practical and economical solution.

DusterMullet said:

I'm looking at possibly buying another AR-style gun. Ideally, one that can shoot larger rounds. That way, I have a .223 and something bigger for the occasion.

1. Does anybody have a list of the 'top', 'best-of-breed,' or 'high-end' AR-style manufacturers? I'm not saying that I want some high-end right now, but it would help me compare the manufacturers and get a better sense of what the market looks like. It seems like I hear of a new company everyday, and it would be awesome to have a list handy. At the least, I can compare features/specs of high-end guns to low-end guns, as that helps me learn quickly.
2. What are the differences in Carbines, 'Pistol', mid-range, etc. rifles? What factors make a rifle either of these types?
3. What makes an AR-10 different that an AR-15? Caliber size & barrel size?
4. Any AR-style guns that can handle a high capacity 30.06 30-round magazine? That would be cool
5. 5.56/.223 & 7.56/.308 seem to be the most common AR-style rounds. What are the larger more common rounds that I may be missing?
6. What specs would you recommend for a gun that can shoot Elk, Deer & Hogs?

Click to expand...

1- My "higher end" ARs are Larue and Barnes Precision. Nicer-than-average AR's are not difficult to build with the componenta available today.
2- The differences are in the length of the guns and/or the gas system used. It seems like the go-to on 16" carbines nowadays is mid-length.
3- Caliber and lower receiver dimensions. AR-15's typically use shorter rounds like 223/5.56, 300 BLK, 7.62 x 39, etc. AR-10's mostly come in 308, 243, 6.5 CM, and so on. Barrel lengths are generally what the shooter selects
4- Maybe, not really my cup of tea. Nemo makes something that's "AR-ish" in 300 WM
5- 6.5 CM is one. I'm sure there are many more in the "AR-age"
6. I routinely kill deer and hogs with 223. If I were to add elk into the task list, I would use my 308 or get one in 6.5 CM.

DusterMullet said:

Hey all,

New to the forums here. I've lightly browsed for the last few months and finally got an account.

I've been a shotgun & pistol guy for years...either hunting birds or having some fun shooting targets.

My friend built a 5.56/.223 AR-15 for me recently. At the time, he was already building one for himself and asked if I wanted one...I said sure and glad he did. As far as I know, it is a Trinity Force. Nothing crazy about it, and it's a more budget-friendly AR-15 from what I've read. I've only shot targets with it, and I like it a lot. I have a hog hunt coming up soon, so maybe I'll use it for that.

Questions:
I'm looking at possibly buying another AR-style gun. Ideally, one that can shoot larger rounds. That way, I have a .223 and something bigger for the occasion.

1. Does anybody have a list of the 'top', 'best-of-breed,' or 'high-end' AR-style manufacturers? I'm not saying that I want some high-end right now, but it would help me compare the manufacturers and get a better sense of what the market looks like. It seems like I hear of a new company everyday, and it would be awesome to have a list handy. At the least, I can compare features/specs of high-end guns to low-end guns, as that helps me learn quickly.
2. What are the differences in Carbines, 'Pistol', mid-range, etc. rifles? What factors make a rifle either of these types?
3. What makes an AR-10 different that an AR-15? Caliber size & barrel size?
4. Any AR-style guns that can handle a high capacity 30.06 30-round magazine? That would be cool
5. 5.56/.223 & 7.56/.308 seem to be the most common AR-style rounds. What are the larger more common rounds that I may be missing?
6. What specs would you recommend for a gun that can shoot Elk, Deer & Hogs?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read my rookie questions!

Click to expand...

I think since you mentioned "Elk" the best common option would be one of the original Geneseo Illinois. 20" Armalite rifles. These are cost effective, very high quality rifles, and with a full 20" barrel, can really achieve most of the performance from that 308 round. The barrel is also chrome lined. These rifles can be found used in excellent condition. They look like this.
View attachment 878200

Another very good option for your purposes would would be the Smith and Wesson Performance Center M&P 10 which typically comes in 6.5 caliber.

https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/review-sw-performance-center-mp-creedmoor/329729
Noreen rifles look pretty cool to me. Never had one.

Some that look nice I have no experience with:
Wilson Combat
Windham Weaponry
LMT

duplicate post deleted

MistWolf said:

The 308 ARs that run well right out of the box have prices well north of $2k. Not saying a less expensive 308 AR cannot be made to work well, but it's a steep learning curve for the neophyte.

Click to expand...

FWIW, my personal experiences from sample size of one Remington R25 have been nothing short of fantastic. It's been running like a clockwork with any ammo I've fed it and sub-MOA groups all the way to 300yd+ seem to be the norm. Not bad for a bargain basement rifle, even though some components like the trigger were pretty bad out of the box. $2k+ rifles are much nicer, of course.

DusterMullet said:

• Any AR-style guns that can handle a high capacity 30.06 30-round magazine? That would be cool

• 5.56/.223 & 7.56/.308 seem to be the most common AR-style rounds. What are the larger more common rounds that I may be missing?

Click to expand...

There have been entire threads on these 2 questions alone. 5.56 is the most common AR chambering. And a conservative estimate of what I have seen in an AR, about 2 dozen others. One of the newest calibers is 350 Legend, it it has an audience in ARs already.

hq said:

FWIW, my personal experiences from sample size of one Remington R25 have been nothing short of fantastic. It's been running like a clockwork with any ammo I've fed it and sub-MOA groups all the way to 300yd+ seem to be the norm. Not bad for a bargain basement rifle, even though some components like the trigger were pretty bad out of the box. $2k+ rifles are much nicer, of course.

Click to expand...

My experience with the S&W MP-10 was the same- until I started running it like an AR instead of shooting it like a bolt action. Things got even more complicated when I added a suppressor. Maybe all shooters want is a "lazy man's bolt action" from a 308 AR (and that's their choice) but that's an inefficient use of resources.

MistWolf said:

308 ARs are a whole other kettle of fish and any that sell for less than $2000 have their own unique challenges to get them to run right. The 308 ARs that run well right out of the box have prices well north of $2k. Not saying a less expensive 308 AR cannot be made to work well, but it's a steep learning curve for the neophyte.

For elk hunting, a solid bolt action rifle is a far more practical and economical solution.

Click to expand...

While I agree that a solid bolt action rifle is more practical for elk hunting, I have a PA-10 AR in .308 Win that, while not a tack driver from the bench, runs just fine. The cost? Less than $600 delivered. Just added a scope and mount. Since it isn't a tack driver, I am considering just adding a carry handle rear sight to go with the A2 front sight for lighter weight, increased durability.

MistWolf said:

My experience with the S&W MP-10 was the same- until I started running it like an AR instead of shooting it like a bolt action. Things got even more complicated when I added a suppressor.

Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but mine's suppressed and gets pretty hot from high volume shooting regularly. Bench or sticks, mainly. It's a bit heavy for shooting offhand and it's scoped for high light transmission and medium/long distances. No mag dumps or similar antics, though.

2ndtimer said:

While I agree that a solid bolt action rifle is more practical for elk hunting, I have a PA-10 AR in .308 Win that, while not a tack driver from the bench, runs just fine. The cost? Less than $600 delivered. Just added a scope and mount. Since it isn't a tack driver, I am considering just adding a carry handle rear sight to go with the A2 front sight for lighter weight, increased durability.

Click to expand...

Specs?

I have thought several times of free floating my M&P 10's, however neither one has shown the tendency to walk shots when shooting normal 4 or 5 shot strings. The POI is very predictable, and both showed very good accuracy.

I think it says a lot when “the difference” between the highest recommended models and the other 90% of models on the market is $12 in two springs, and a $40 buffer.

Varminterror said:

I think it says a lot when “the difference” between the highest recommended models and the other 90% of models on the market is $12 in two springs, and a $40 buffer.

Click to expand...

And a correct gas port, which can be verified before purchasing a barrel or solved with an adjustable gas block. I know what you're getting at though, and fully agree.

Varminterror said:

I think it says a lot when “the difference” between the highest recommended models and the other 90% of models on the market is $12 in two springs, and a $40 buffer.

Click to expand...

..plus all the inspection steps and documentation. A lot f products can be produced cheaper if the number of inspections and the amount of documentation is reduced, but that often has a negative impact on product quality.