Store bought self defense ammunition

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You will need to purchase enough to test it in your firearm and enough to carry. That's a modest investment.

I cannot imagine any prudent person skimping on that when considering the stakes
You can pay as much as you want for ammo, but the fact is a bullet pokes a hole and the best way to stop any human threat is a CNS hit and you don't need anything more than FMJ to do that. It's not even necessary we use JHP, we just do because it works better, but I don't feel the need to pay double for a JHP that does literally the same thing as a cheaper JHP.

As for unbonded bullets, again, if it works, it works and from what I've seen, for simple point blank DGU's, unbonded will work fine, just don't use it in a PCC.
 
he best way to stop any human threat is a CNS hit
How likely are you to do that with an attacker moving at five meters per second at a distance of, say, three meters?

but I don't feel the need to pay double for a JHP that does literally the same thing as a cheaper JHP.
You are misinformed.
 
You can pay as much as you want for ammo, but the fact is a bullet pokes a hole and the best way to stop any human threat is a CNS hit and you don't need anything more than FMJ to do that. It's not even necessary we use JHP, we just do because it works better, but I don't feel the need to pay double for a JHP that does literally the same thing as a cheaper JHP.

As for unbonded bullets, again, if it works, it works and from what I've seen, for simple point blank DGU's, unbonded will work fine, just don't use it in a PCC.
I’ve seen many bullet recovered from autopsies and can tell you this. Bonded bullets open and stay together. They also hold up better when hitting bones.
One reason police agencies went to the 40 S&W years ago was because 9 mm HP ammo didn’t preform well. Today police agencies are going back to 9mm due to the new HP ammonium preforming so much better.
Two things I don’t do. Put cheap tires on my truck and carry cheap ammo in my gun.
 
In today's world there is no need to hand load SD ammo. The ammo company's have done A LOT or R&D before the market their ammo. There are some that are slightly better than others, but they are ALL good performers in the real world.
 
I’ve seen many bullet recovered from autopsies and can tell you this. Bonded bullets open and stay together. They also hold up better when hitting bones.
One reason police agencies went to the 40 S&W years ago was because 9 mm HP ammo didn’t preform well. Today police agencies are going back to 9mm due to the new HP ammonium preforming so much better.
Two things I don’t do. Put cheap tires on my truck and carry cheap ammo in my gun.
Gunny you nailed it. I went to MANY autopsies in 'search' for hand gun performance and, as you said, you need a bullet that will expand reliably (wide wound cavity), but retain most of it's weight to get good penetration (long wound cavity). That is why the very 'heavy and/or light' bullets in any given caliber, are not the best for SD.
 
I choose to carry my own hand loads and accept the risks of doing so, because I believe they are infinitesimally small. I suggest everyone carry good hollow point ammo that functions reliably in their gun but it is none of my concern what anyone chooses.

^^^This is where I'm at. Unlike others here, I'm not going to belittle or chastise anyone for what they choose for their SD in their gun. That choice is as personal as choosing to carry in the first place. That choice in itself, will have much more impact on whether or not a jury finds you guilty of a bad shoot than any choice of ammo. Since the whole debate of whether or not to carry handloads started 30+ years ago, there has not been one case any of the nay-sayers can give, showing where handloads, by themselves made any....any difference at all. Oh yeah, could happen, might happen, but it ain't happened, and and odds are, it never will. I know, JMHO, but isn't the same to be said about all of these opinions? Kinda like those folks that insist one needs a bigger caliber or more capacity for their SD weapon than that little LCP with only 6 rounds of FMJs.. Lookout tho, might make you a murderer.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

From Pennsylvania Law, an Abiding Gun Owner Blog.


Other common misconceptions when calculating deadly force include:




    • What caliber you use matters. [Point of fact it does not. The law does not require you use the lowest caliber firearm available to you in a given situation]
    • The type of firearm used matters. [Point of fact it does not. The law does not require you use a handgun over a shotgun over a FNH SCAR 17s or your Barrett Model 82A1 battle rifle.]
    • The number of shots used matters. The moment you reload your weapon, you can no longer claim self-defense. [Point of fact it does not. The law does not require you use only one projectile. As anyone who has had any tactical or self-defense training will tell you, you shoot to end the threat. The fact is even those who are highly trained and drilled will require more than one shot to end the threat. Shooting to end the threat does not mean murder, it means shooting to stop the perpetrator from continuing to complete one of the four specified acts allowed under Pennsylvania law, meaning death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat.]
    • The modifications to the firearm used matter. [Point of fact they does not. It makes no difference if you use your match grade Geissele or Timney trigger or your Glockworks modification. If you or some gunsmith modifies a trigger to make it a “hair trigger,” it doesn’t make self-defense any more or less available.]
    • The type of load used in the gun matters. [Point of fact it does not. Whether you use Full Metal Jacketed ammo, hollow points, frangible ammo, Hornady Critical Defense® ammunition, Speer® Gold Dot® ammunition, 00 buckshot, slugs, high grain rifle rounds or hand-loads does not factor into the legal equation.]
    • Whether you have a concealed carry permit matters. [Point of fact it does not. A Pennsylvania License to Carry a Firearm does not eliminate your ability to claim self-defense or mean that you have any “extra” rights to defend yourself.]
    • It matters if you have received advanced tactical training or have military SF or operator training. [Point of fact it does not. Even if you are a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt and teach combat tactics in the Reserves, whether deadly force is permissible depends upon the circumstances at the time you encounter your situation. You are still held to the same standard as the rest of us.]

In today's world there is no need to hand load SD ammo. The ammo company's have done A LOT or R&D before the market their ammo. There are some that are slightly better than others, but they are ALL good performers in the real world.

There is, as stated no need. While $2 a round boutique ammo may perform as well in my firearm as my $0.40 a round handloads, there is tho, a desire and a satisfaction from handloaded ammo. Lets say, you got careless and let a round escape the backstop while plinking at your local range. Will the charge change because you used handloads? Could be the prosecutor, will try and show how caress and reckless you are by using handloads?Could be......

Ain't gonna pursue this any longer, been debated enough. Wouldn't have even gone this far, but the nay-sayers had to start handing out their tin-foil hats.
 
Two things I don’t do. Put cheap tires on my truck and carry cheap ammo in my gun.
And that’s the crux of the matter right there.

There is a performance difference between cheap hollow points and well built bonded hollow points. If the folks who ACTUALLY use them (like LEOs) feel the cost difference is worth it, I guess I just can’t understand why anyone would argue the point.

The cost difference is irrelevant. Over a lifetime let’s say I throw away $2,000, $4,000, or hell even $10,000 on over priced hollow points, what do I care? My life is worth far more than that to me.

Same thoughts on tires.
 
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And that’s the crux of the matter right there.

There is a performance difference between cheap hollow points and well built bonded hollow points. If the folks who ACTUALLY use them (like LEOs) feel the cost difference is worth it, I can’t understand why anyone would argue the point.

The cost difference is irrelevant. Over a lifetime let’s say I throw away $2,000, $4,000, or hell even $10,000 on over priced hollow points, what do I care? My life is worth far more than that to me.

Same thoughts on tires.
.


The price of quality defense ammo can add up if you are function testing 100 rounds in every gun you own, but it’s still worth it to me. You only usually spend double of the cheap stuff so even if you have 6 guns, I figure the difference to be around $270 total. That number is for three boxes of 50 rounds for 6 guns. Burn two boxes on function testing and load gun and extra magazines with the last box.

18 boxes Fiocchi = $270
18 boxes Gold Dots = $540

For one defense gun the difference is only $45.
 
showing where handloads, by themselves made any....any difference at all

This shows the basic misunderstanding of the issue. A jury decision is a mixture of factors. With an ambiguous shoot, you are on trial so it is not a good shoot. All models of jury decision state that it is complex process of factors. Why have a negative factor in the mix? As far as it never matter, how do you know? Have you insight into every trial? Have you listened to every presentation every made to a jury?

It is a minimal expense in the long run to eliminate this threat. Only ego leads folks not to take this precaution. I know better from my crystal ball. My handloads are superior to commercial. I know better than almost every expert that has examined the issue. Give me a break.
 
there has not been one case any of the nay-sayers can give, showing where handloads, by themselves made any....any difference at all.
That's not the point--at all.

As a matter of fact to determine whether any particular issue has impacted a verdict would require one to (1) know all of the ins and outs of every trial in which that issue may have played a part and (2) be able to divine the basis of the decision of eery juror in all of those trials.

But again, that's not point. If a person found guilty happened to use handloads. the use ot handloads per se would be extremely unlikely to have been a deciding factor. The use of hot loads tested in gel by the defendant might combine with posters such as "protected by Smith and Wesson" and "we don't call 911), but it shouldn't be the detemining factor by itself.

Where it can make a difference is when a defendant's account of the incident is disputed by testimony and/or other testimony, and the introduction of gunshot residue by the defendant would substantiate his account.

Such evidence would be admissible--if the ammunition had been manufactured by an independent third party using accepted testing and documentation processes. And it could be probative.MOST unlikely.

There has been one such example involving handloads. It was not a self defense case, but matters not one whit.

Actually, that aspect to the Rules of Evidence came from a series of SCOTUS rulings involving a civil matter relating to the admissibility of expert witness testimony involving pharmaceuticals.

But it is valid in any case involving the admissibility of what was at one time called "forensic scientific trace evidence".

That's the way the law works.
 
It may well be a poor decision but I will continue to load my own carry ammo. There is a small chance I will be involved in a self defense shooting and a small chance it will go to court and hand loaded ammo used against me. I accept that risk.
To my advantage, there is no chance I will have any alcohol or drugs in my system to cast doubt over my judgement in a self defense shooting.
 
There is a small chance I will be involved in a self defense shooting and a small chance it will go to court and hand loaded ammo used against me.
I'm sure there is a very small chance that any of us will be involved in a self defense shooting.

If we are, however it is a near certainty that a criminal investigation of some kind be initiated.

At that point, the defender's fate will be completely out of his hands.

The chance that it will go to court is not insignificant.

The problem here is that only the defender goes into it with the idea that he is innocent. Everyone else will have to decide on the basis of limited evidence pieced together after the fact. None of them were there.

The burden of production for favorable evidence rests with the defender.

It would be unfortunate to have any favorable evidence withheld from the jury because of decisions he made before hand.

...and hand loaded ammo used against me.
It's not that it might be "used against" the defender. It's that it might deny the defender' the right of submittal of favorable evidence.

I accept that risk.
The likelihood of occurrence is remote.

The severity of the potential consequences is very high indeed.

The cost of mitigation is insignificant.

Sound reasons for not mitigating the risk are non-existent.

From the standpoint of risk management, it's a no-brainer.
 
Nothing I have tried matches the accuracy of my handloads, so I give up on store bought's.:D
 
I just use ball ammo, because it is what I practice with. Might even start carrying my own hand loaded LSWC loads soon. Never heard of a case where hand loaded ammo, changed an outcome in an incident or in a legal case, so - not going to think about it any more than that unless someone has some actual data on the matter.

Carry whatever you want that you like, for any reason that makes sense to you. There are cases where hollow point ammo has lacked penetration and altered the outcome of events, and some of them are famous. I'm not sure I could reference incidents that were the other way around, other than speculation and conjecture.
 
And that’s the crux of the matter right there.

There is a performance difference between cheap hollow points and well built bonded hollow points. If the folks who ACTUALLY use them (like LEOs) feel the cost difference is worth it, I guess I just can’t understand why anyone would argue the point.

The cost difference is irrelevant. Over a lifetime let’s say I throw away $2,000, $4,000, or hell even $10,000 on over priced hollow points, what do I care? My life is worth far more than that to me.

Same thoughts on tires.

What you are saying is true. However rounds that are designed to work.through metal, wood and windshields while shot out of a 4.5" barrel might not be the round of choice for everyone.

My own testing has shown me that Fed LE9T5 works well out of all.my firearms.so.that's what I use.because I can get it at a reasonable price. Not just because it passed FBI protocols.

I also.use GD 124+P which are not bonded because I can sometimes get a good price.

I also use regular old WWB 115 gr JHP out of a 3.0" barrel and Remington 115 JHP out of a 4.5" barrel and am not a bit afraid of the performance but would not do the reverse.
 
What you are saying is true. However rounds that are designed to work.through metal, wood and windshields while shot out of a 4.5" barrel might not be the round of choice for everyone.

My own testing has shown me that Fed LE9T5 works well out of all.my firearms.so.that's what I use.because I can get it at a reasonable price. Not just because it passed FBI protocols.

I also.use GD 124+P which are not bonded because I can sometimes get a good price.

I also use regular old WWB 115 gr JHP out of a 3.0" barrel and Remington 115 JHP out of a 4.5" barrel and am not a bit afraid of the performance but would not do the reverse.
The ability to penetrate barriers must be considered and given your living environment, be chosen wisely.

But the point was that I take heed of what the users of premium ammo have to say about it’s track record, and believe arguing that cheaper stuff is just as good makes little sense given that actual performance is observed by LEOs and choices are made by those departments with that performance in mind. Yes, other factors come in. But Im going to pay attention when LE departments choose an ammo, just as I’m going to listen to a big game hunter when they talk about what to use to put down a big critter.

Gold Dots are bonded bullets.

Folks need to carry whatever makes them comfortable, and I’m not advocating for any one brand or bullet. There are many good choices.

I’m advocating for making a selection based on real observations by the users of this ammo and on test results.
 
Gold Dots are bonded bullets.

Folks need to carry whatever makes them comfortable, and I’m not advocating for any one brand or bullet. There are many good choices.

I’m advocating for making a selection based on real observations by the users of this ammo and on test results.

Sorry, brain fade I just bought some GD but for some reason had HST on the brain.
 
In the past, I have reloaded both .243 and .380 (all I had). I have added .38 Sp. & .357 to the mix. With both the .380 and the .357, when I reload HPs, I take a razorknife and push (not hammer!) it into the tip to make 4-6 cuts in the lead of a few of the bullets. Both calibers are also loaded with their appropriate powders to a near max charge.
 
This shows the basic misunderstanding of the issue. A jury decision is a mixture of factors. With an ambiguous shoot, you are on trial so it is not a good shoot. All models of jury decision state that it is complex process of factors. Why have a negative factor in the mix? As far as it never matter, how do you know? Have you insight into every trial? Have you listened to every presentation every made to a jury?

It is a minimal expense in the long run to eliminate this threat. Only ego leads folks not to take this precaution. I know better from my crystal ball. My handloads are superior to commercial. I know better than almost every expert that has examined the issue. Give me a break.
It's worse case scenario's like this that I'm starting to believe is perpetuated by ammo companies. Like, you remember those DirectTV commercials where because you had cable instead of DirecTV something bad happened to you? This argument is starting to sound like one of those commercials...

"So you decided to reload your own defensive ammo to save money. Spending all that time reloading made you feel sad. Because you felt sad, you went to the liquor store. Because you went to the liquor store, someone tried to rob you. Because someone tried to rob you, you shot them, they died. That person happened to be a member of the LGBT community, you were charged with a hate crime by the DA. You went on trial, even tho you claimed self defense. Because you chose to use your reloaded ammo, you were branded as a vicious, evil psychotic deplorable Trump voter by the DA and the jury full of 50+ suburban women and Millennials agreed. You were found guilty and sentenced to life in prison with a cellmate named "Soap Drop' Malone.

You don't want to be the cellmate of "Soap Drop" Malone. Buy HST's instead."


The process from the immediate aftermath of a DGU to a trail is long and goes thru a lot of hoops. Look at the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin situation: even tho Zimmerman put himself in a position to be attacked when he was told by a dispatcher not to follow the suspicious person, he did so anyway. He put himself into a position where he was attacked, but because he was attacked, he was protected by stand your ground laws and even the police who investigated the crime scene and witnesses who made statements, all the evidence pointed to Zimmerman being not guilty, but it turned into a high profile case and he was charged anyway.

He could had used his own ammo, it would have made no difference in the outcome.
 
I think that it would help if people would go back to the OP’s original post and read it so that they can remember what the topic is about.
Sometimes , when reading a topic, I feel like I’m in a conversation with people that are drinking. Some more than others. ;)

The original question of this topic:
In a SHTF scenario I won't hesitate to use my handloads with Hornady XTP's but I'm
wondering what other folks prefer in premium ammo and why.


Most police agencies will test different types of ammunition, and pick what preform best.
In the last 19 years my department has issued Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot in 9mm and 40 S&W.
I have seen what these two types of bullets are capable of doing on vehicle, structures, and the human body. And this is what I have based my choice of carry ammo on.
This is not to say what someone else decides to carry is wrong. We all have a reason for what we carry.
 
That's a good point to shut this down. We have wandered away from the OP as just stated.

Closed.
 
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