Why are there no/few options with really short length of pull?

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z7

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A bit of a statement / rant,

I’ve been looking for a few months for a good youth rifle, I had a thread on here discussing 6.8spc vs Grendel vs Valkyrie for a hunting rifle.

with all of the excellent choices we have today the only rifles that have 10-11” length of pull are AR pattern carbines

I’m a huge fan on ar pattern rifles, but I wish the Ruger American rifle like came with a really shot LOP as an option. The compact has a 12.5” LOP, and youth models have around a 12” LOP (mossberg Patriot)

the only other option is to buy a rifle or barreled action (Howa) and drop it into a MdT Lss chassis, bringing the cost to around $800-$1000 for a gun that is equally heavy or heavier than an AR.

The other problem in the youth market imo is the choice of caliber, slow twist 243’s, 7mm-08 and 308 dominate the market with the 6.5 creed being the new hotness. Very little love for great shorter range cartridges like the 6.8spc and 6.5 grendel, a 7 or 8 year old will shoot a Grendel or spc a while lots more than a 7mm08
 
Heck, it's not just a kids thing. I'm 5'7" and find that guns with about a 12 1/2" LOP fit me perfectly. M1 carbines, Rossi 92s, A1 stocked retro ARs, all are right in that range and they feel great. It's a bit emasculating to say, but I sometimes shoot youth shotguns for skeet because they tend to fit better than something like a full-size 870.

10" is a little short, even for a youth gun IMO, but I wouldn't mind if the average factory stock lost about an inch or so.
 
The problem is twofold- first is stock size,
Length of pull combined with grip size and angle

Second is caliber - used wood stocked rifles are often not in the kid friendly calibers I’m after and or the muzzles are not threaded or both,

@Mosin Bubba, I admire someone who knows themselves enough to shoot the gun that fits them and they use well vs what gets cool points. A gun that fits is something many people don’t focus on

again, this me ranting a little, it is just difficult to find a gun that actually fits a kid, and there is very little market choice for calibers and barrel profile/threads in youth friendly rifles

and I am being difficult-10.5-11.5” length of pull is acceptable, threaded muzzle (for a suppressor I’m buying soon) under 8 lbs with a scope, minimal recoil and potent enough for deer and pigs
 
Ive been complaining about this for a number of decades now. I too prefer a more realistic and shorter LOP on long guns.

I think a lot of what brought about the changes was the move towards scopes over iron sights, and more static shooting positions, ie, shooting from a bench or rest, as opposed to shooting from quickly acquired field positions or reactive type shooting on your feet.

Add to that, that a lot of people really arent being taught to shoot the heavier calibers properly, and insisting on the need of having those dreaded and silly recoil pads on "everything", just makes things worse.

If you look at the stocks on most hunting rifles these days, and compare them to rifles of the early part of the last century, the differences are pretty obvious.

For me, it seems most other peoples guns these days, have a stock thats to long, with a sticky and annoying recoil pad on it, a scope thats mounted too high, and to far back, and for me, the guns are usually very cumbersome and awkward to shoulder and shoot.

Im used to shooting with the rifle pulled/snugged in tight to my shoulder, my head down and forward on the stock, with a good, solid cheek weld on it. I like my scopes mounted low, and forward, giving me a cheek weld that mimics or comes very close to the same cheek weld I get from my guns with iron sights, which is what most of my rifles have anyway.
 
I’ve fought that issue for a long time as an instructor. “Youth” really only means “young teen or slightly shorter than average.” I have had some parent complaints when putting an AR or AR-22 in a kid’s hands for a class, so I avoid it when possible - not to mention avoiding the challenge additional weight of an AR plays in REAL-youth shooting.

My solution has been to cut down additional stocks for certain rifles. Take-off factory wood stocks for many models can be bought for less than $50, and Boyd’s stocks can be had around $100 - adding some attractive color which appeals to bring some of the more shy kids out of their shells.

Naturally, when the kid grows up, the original stock, or another replacement can go back onto the rifle. It’s an added cost, but I am never unwilling to invest in educating our future generations into proper firearms skills, and never unwilling to help create memories between friends and families as well which tend to organically grow around shooting and hunting together.
 
Get a rifle for which Boyds makes at At One rifle stock. That includes most popular bolt-actions.

Youth are typically relatively new shooters and having a good-fitting rifle is a really big benefit. They'll have a lot easier time with it. More skilled shooters can sort of adapt to an ill-fitting rifle, but who wants to?

I have to say, I'm not a real fan of the At One's grips. They're too square. But the adjustable LoP and comb height make it easily worth the vary reasonable price (esp. for hardwood laminates).
 
Texas10mm said:
I want options for a longer LOP. I'm 6'3" with 34" arms. Very few stocks are long enough.

It's marketing 101. You market to the 80% in the middle of the bell curve. The 10% on each end get left out.
Click to expand...

You can always add a thicker recoil pad. That's easier than cutting a stock down.
 
I am 5 ft. 10 and am more comfortable with stocks about an inch or a little more shorter. I have cut some down but lately I just live with it.
 
labnoti said:
Get a rifle for which Boyds makes at At One rifle stock. That includes most popular bolt-actions.
Click to expand...

The At-One isn’t really a short stock, it’s just adjustable. It spans 12.5” to 14”, which typically only effectively spans about a teenager or average height woman somewhere over 5’4” up to about 6’2-3” height. Kids 4-7yrs old are often in the 8-9” LOP ballpark.
 
Ok, that's true it only goes down to 12.5" -- although it can go a little shorter (or longer) with some changes to the recoil pad insert. But I agree it's not going to fit many 4 year olds. For the really little ones, there are rifles like the Cricket and Rascal. Lately, I've been working with little kids (more like 8 or 9) in 4H and I've had my mind changed about air rifles. They do 10m 3-position air rifle and I think for basic marksmanship (pre-hunting) and target shooting, the air rifles are perfect. They use "Air Force" brand rifles that are very nice -- much better than a Cricket or Rascal.

So if you get little kids into nicer .22's (better than Cricket/Rascal), they're going to have a hard time holding the gun. I don't see a 4-year old doing "3-position" with a 10/22 or a CZ 457. They'll probably need a bipod. What might work even better is a tripod and PIG saddle. For LoP, wood can be cut-down and a pad refitted or an adjustable stock or "arm brace" can be used on AR-pattern rifles or the precision "chassis" rifles. These bolt-action chassis rifles are a good fit for a tripod and saddle setup. Your typical little 6-year old is going to prefer that with some nice optics to trying to hold a rifle that's too heavy even without an optic.
 
Texas10mm said:
I want options for a longer LOP. I'm 6'3" with 34" arms. Very few stocks are long enough.

It's marketing 101. You market to the 80% in the middle of the bell curve. The 10% on each end get left out.
Click to expand...

Well said. I'm 6'-2" and wear a 35" or 36" sleeve length. Think either missing link or an a orangutan. Rifles don't fit; nor do most vehicles. I've learned to adapt and cost wise, it is usually easier to shorten LOP than lengthen it.
 
I’m not a fan of Rascals or Crickets. I had 25 Crickets at one point I bought as half of a group buy with another instructor, and sold many of them in a couple years as different kids came through and parents wanted them. I feel bad now for spreading them around - like passing the clap. They’re cheap, but poorly featured and can’t grow with the shooters. I like to start the youngest kids on red dot sights with integral laser pointers, so I can watch their POA and hold, so having a proper 22 is a big advantage. I’m certain most if not all of those Crickets I sold are collecting dust somewhere, or were sold off to some other family - which is a two sided coin, more kids get to learn on the same piece, but the kid doesn’t get to grow in life with their first rifle, and won’t pass it on in their family.

Moving up to a centerfire, there really isn’t an analogy for a Cricket/Rascal either, but a 223, 6.5 grendel, or 243 with a cut down stock can grow with a kid and be useful their entire life.

Equally, Crickets have 11.5” LOP, and Rascals have 11.25”. For kids truly small enough to need super small, super simple rifles like these, it’s still 2-3” too long (and poor cheek rise for small faces, especially using RDS or scopes). Kids big enough for an 11.25-11.5” LOP should have sufficient discipline to quickly outgrow them. For me to really proffer any support for these models, they should be no longer than 9.5” LOP, and have far better quality sights, with accommodations for optics. Better still, accommodations for buttstock insert shims and clip on cheek pieces.
 
Texas10mm said:
I want options for a longer LOP. I'm 6'3" with 34" arms. Very few stocks are long enough.

It's marketing 101. You market to the 80% in the middle of the bell curve. The 10% on each end get left out.
Click to expand...

I'm an odd one. I'm 5'7" with 34"+ sleeves. Built like some kind of spider monkey.
I have to get adjustable stocks when I can unless I can really test first because I tend to like them short but sights, scopes, the gun itself, and my arms don't always play well.
Would be nice to find more options that start at 11" or so, with easily used spacers.
 
Spacers just so often look like crap. It’s disappointing. More stocks like the Manners Compact would be very welcome in my safe, however.
 
Varminterror said:
Spacers just so often look like crap. It’s disappointing. More stocks like the Manners Compact would be very welcome in my safe, however.
Click to expand...
I have looked at the manners compact stock, it’s a little on the heavy side even with the elite fill,

it is 2020, we can make stock spacers look halfway decent and make gunstocks fit more people without much effort or extra cost,

I checked out the Boyd’s line and for $200 I could get a 12.5” lop, cut it down and put a 16” Ruger American ranch in 6.5 grendel in it, total cost $600-$700, unsure of the weight though
 
z7 said:
I checked out the Boyd’s line and for $200 I could get a 12.5” lop, cut it down and put a 16” Ruger American ranch in 6.5 grendel in it, total cost $600-$700, unsure of the weight though
Click to expand...

I shared a bunch of weights on different Rimfire Boyd’s stocks on here recently, I’ll search for it. The good news, naturally, for someone willing to invest some sweat equity, is the Boyd’s stocks are laminate, such a guy can bore a bunch out of the buttstock and drill or route a lot out of the forend channel, and/or skive quite a bit from the exterior of the forend to reduce weight. I have seen guys skeletonize the buttstock entirely also, although I have not doneso myself - but I could get on board with a recessed side buttstock, similar to the old Ruger Boat Paddles (which I’ve always thought could offer some neat opportunities for carved or pinned insignia of the kid’s favor, if a guy were more of a craftsman than myself). Of course, cutting that big 2-3” slab off of the rear reduces weight considerably. I’ve thought a lot about cutting down the forend on a Boyd’s stock and pinning a hollow delrin forend tip to reduce some weight and length there too, but alas, I’ve caught myself every time before making sawdust wondering why I was going to dump so many hours into a cheap stock. I’ve also been too lazy to convert a fixed cheek Boyd’s stock to an adjustable rise, but using a forward riser instead of the center comb riser they offer as standard. When he started on the rifles, my son’s cheek was at the forward edge of the factory offering.

A lot can be done if you’re willing to do a lot.
 
z7 said:
...with all of the excellent choices we have today the only rifles that have 10-11” length of pull are AR pattern carbines...
Click to expand...
That’s actually what I ended up doing for my 7- and 9-year old girls. I was going to cut down a 10/22 stock to fit them, but ended up buying a rifle stock that accepted an AR15 buffer tube & stock.

7NWqJa9h.jpg

Now it fits them and me. It actually works pretty well.

I realize you’re mostly talking about centerfire rifles. And you’re right, most any stock that will accept an AR buffer tube is going to be an expensive (and heavy?) chassis system. But there may be a few other options out there.

Unfortunately, most of them look terrible with a collapsible AR stock attached. I’m not a fan of making things “tacticool” by adding rails and collapsible stocks. But for an adjustable your rifle it may be the best option. That way it can be easily adjusted as they grow.
 
z7 said:
The problem is twofold- first is stock size,
Length of pull combined with grip size and angle

Second is caliber - used wood stocked rifles are often not in the kid friendly calibers I’m after and or the muzzles are not threaded or both,

@Mosin Bubba, I admire someone who knows themselves enough to shoot the gun that fits them and they use well vs what gets cool points. A gun that fits is something many people don’t focus on

again, this me ranting a little, it is just difficult to find a gun that actually fits a kid, and there is very little market choice for calibers and barrel profile/threads in youth friendly rifles

and I am being difficult-10.5-11.5” length of pull is acceptable, threaded muzzle (for a suppressor I’m buying soon) under 8 lbs with a scope, minimal recoil and potent enough for deer and pigs
Click to expand...
I hear you, we had to go with a Boyds thumb hole at-1 to get the right fit for my 10 yr old short arms on a .22-250.
 
labnoti said:
Ok, that's true it only goes down to 12.5" -- although it can go a little shorter (or longer) with some changes to the recoil pad insert. But I agree it's not going to fit many 4 year olds. For the really little ones, there are rifles like the Cricket and Rascal. Lately, I've been working with little kids (more like 8 or 9) in 4H and I've had my mind changed about air rifles. They do 10m 3-position air rifle and I think for basic marksmanship (pre-hunting) and target shooting, the air rifles are perfect. They use "Air Force" brand rifles that are very nice -- much better than a Cricket or Rascal.

So if you get little kids into nicer .22's (better than Cricket/Rascal), they're going to have a hard time holding the gun. I don't see a 4-year old doing "3-position" with a 10/22 or a CZ 457. They'll probably need a bipod. What might work even better is a tripod and PIG saddle. For LoP, wood can be cut-down and a pad refitted or an adjustable stock or "arm brace" can be used on AR-pattern rifles or the precision "chassis" rifles. These bolt-action chassis rifles are a good fit for a tripod and saddle setup. Your typical little 6-year old is going to prefer that with some nice optics to trying to hold a rifle that's too heavy even without an optic.
Click to expand...
Back when I was an instructor we started with air pistols, then air rifles provided by Daisy. When we got to rimfire, Daisy used to make a .22lr rifle that had an adjustable stock. I still have one.
 
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