300 Win Mag vs 300 WSM vs 308

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Huntolive

Huntolive

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I have 2 300 Win Mag rifles and several 308 rifles, along with couple thirty-ought-six, 243, plus AKs and ARS, and 375 Ruger and H and H, and 30-30 rifles.

So i was Not looking at getting additional caliber when I posted about getting a nice 300win mag, preferably Threaded to use with an Omega suppressor I'm waiting to clear.
I was looking exclusively at Sako 300 Win Mag s in mostly model 85 , Finnbear, Gray Wolf or the cheaper A7 or Finnlight.

But only reply was from member touting 300 WSM with which I have no experience. So how does 300 Winchester short mag actually stack up against 300 Winchester magnum and where would 308 which I shoot a lot of fit in?

Are there any real advantages 2 adding 300 Winchester short mag?
I'm looking for something with more punch than a 308 4 knockdown power, and yes, before everybody jumps in I understand that shot placement is a big factor but what are the capabilities primarily of the Winchester short mag and any distinct advantages it offers? Or am I best served keeping it simple in a caliber I already stock and respect like 300 Win Mag?

anybody's experience on different models of Sako and whether it is worth it to get a True Sako like a model 85 or 75 or if the A7 is close enough?
I have a Tikka t3 lite 308 which is probably the best bolt action rifle I own so how much more would an A7 or model 85 do for me?
 
saiga308 said:
brass case wsm has higher pressure then the win mag as more efficient burn of the powder inside
Max Pressure (SAAMI) 64,000psi wsm =65,000psi
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A fact that doesn't translate into a ballistics advantage. Everything else being equal, only the velocity matters to ballistics. The WM has a 100fps advantage over the WSM with the same bullet, therefore would have a ballistic advantage with the same bullet. The WSM cannot defy physics
 
I had a thought experiment one time. What if I had .308/7.62 rile and I only loaded 150 gr bullets, a .30-06 and only loaded 180gr, and either a 300 WM or WBY and only loaded 200gr bullets. Then I would have a similar trajectory in each rifle and the difference would be in recoil and in what size projectile was hitting my target. I reasoned that I would choose the rifle I wanted based on the intended target but not really care about the distance to the target because the trajectory would all be similar.

Money, time, sanity, and 2 young men in college and an almost 7 year old daughter has doused those thoughts completely. My .30-06 will prob go to my oldest when he has a house of his own in a few years, my dads .270 Win will be my hunting rifle, and my younger son will get an as yet to be procured rifle or the Swede I bought when he was recoil shy (my girl will get the 7x57).

So, the WSM??? IDK. But it seems you have a lot of .30 cals. I’d get something different. But YMMV.

Greg
 
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silicosys4 said:
The WSM cannot defy physics
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You must not be familiar with the propaganda then :D Those were supposed to make all of our old "short magnums" obsolete.

Now honestly the .300WM in a 3.4" or shorter action feels like it has the same shortcomings as the .300wsm in a 2.8" action. Now put the .300 in a 3.7" action and the .300wsm in a 3.1" action and i become much more interested.
The problem for me is that while you can find .300WMs with longer magazine boxes, finding 300WSMs with a 3.1" magazine box isnt that easy, and going to a full long action leaves me cold. Thats just a personal quirk tho.
IMG_20191130_084159.jpg
Just finished rebarreling a stainless Abolt for a friend of mine. Those .300WM rounds are loaded to 3.55" and first loading shoots 3/4MOA
For reference those loads out of his long 28" tube, out run the hottest 300wsms ive seen but a good bit.

As to what gun to buy, well Ive got a personal desire for a Gray Wolf.....Tho honestly (and i dont really care for Tikkas anymore) you wont get a whole heck of alot more out of any over the counter gun than your already getting out of your T3.
 
silicosys4 said:
A fact that doesn't translate into a ballistics advantage. Everything else being equal, only the velocity matters to ballistics. The WM has a 100fps advantage over the WSM with the same bullet, therefore would have a ballistic advantage with the same bullet. The WSM cannot defy physics
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well i see what youn mean found this
Because I handload the 300WSM are cheaper to load because they take about 7 or 8 less grains less powder to achieve the same performance so the WSM is cheaper for me to shoot.
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In other 300 Win Mags with more standard throats I have noticed about 3050-3100 with a 180 to be a practical velocity level while holding the cartridge to 30/06 OAL. Some 300 Win Mags come with longish throats but shorter magazines...they would give 3150-3200 with a 165.
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I have not messed with loading 180's in the 300 WSM and loaded 165's in them and have seen velocities of about 3125 with a 165 gr bullets and 72 gr RL22;this is the exact same load I have used in the 300 H&H for 3150 from a M70 and 26" barrel.I would not want to push harder in the WSM.
Click to expand...
 
Huntolive said:
I have 2 300 Win Mag rifles and several 308 rifles, along with couple thirty-ought-six, 243, plus AKs and ARS, and 375 Ruger and H and H, and 30-30 rifles.

So i was Not looking at getting additional caliber when I posted about getting a nice 300win mag, preferably Threaded to use with an Omega suppressor I'm waiting to clear.
I was looking exclusively at Sako 300 Win Mag s in mostly model 85 , Finnbear, Gray Wolf or the cheaper A7 or Finnlight.

But only reply was from member touting 300 WSM with which I have no experience. So how does 300 Winchester short mag actually stack up against 300 Winchester magnum and where would 308 which I shoot a lot of fit in?

Are there any real advantages 2 adding 300 Winchester short mag?
I'm looking for something with more punch than a 308 4 knockdown power, and yes, before everybody jumps in I understand that shot placement is a big factor but what are the capabilities primarily of the Winchester short mag and any distinct advantages it offers? Or am I best served keeping it simple in a caliber I already stock and respect like 300 Win Mag?

anybody's experience on different models of Sako and whether it is worth it to get a True Sako like a model 85 or 75 or if the A7 is close enough?
I have a Tikka t3 lite 308 which is probably the best bolt action rifle I own so how much more would an A7 or model 85 do for me?
Click to expand...
The WSM certainly has gained traction in the long range Benchrest discipline, lots of load data available as well as quality dies and brass. The short action seems attractive as well for getting rounds down range quickly, my Daughter and I just bought a 270 WSM for the son in law - he loves the short action .
J
 
I have a 300 Weatherby so I like the old longer action magnums and am as a result probably biased towards the standard 300 Win Mag over the WSM. Practically speaking there's not going to be any difference between the two in a hunting application, though. I'd also say if you have a 30-06, a 300 Win Mag isn't going to accomplish a whole lot more. A 338 might slot between your '06 and 375 a little better.
 
The 338wm isn’t really doing anything the 300wm can’t. Just not enough case capacity to really throw the heavy 338’s how they deserve to walk away from the 30’s. It’s a step up, but it’s not the same magnitude of step as the 300 over the 308. If going up to the 33’s, a 338 Rum or Edge/Pedge is the big step.
 
Why I don't like WSMs in short actions....this is one of the more nonsensical things I've seen done (tho it's probably due to lack of 7rsaum ammo)

These 7mm WSMs are for a rem 700 (edit: oops model 7) that was a 7rsaum, that had it's barrel set back and rechambered.

Lands are at about 2.88 but mags only 2.83. Even at 2.88 that's a lot of shank down in the case. Also I keep forgetting how fat the wsm and saum/rums are....my normal powder funnel wasn't quite wide enough, had to heat it and form it out to get the case in there......
NOW I'm beginning to really appreciate the PRCs, common 7!
IMG_20200108_223342.jpg
 
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LoonWulf said:
Why I don't like WSMs in short actions....this is one of the more nonsensical things I've seen done (tho it's probably due to lack of 7rsaum ammo)

These 7mm WSMs are for a rem 700 that was a 7rsaum, that had it's barrel set back and rechambered.

Lands are at about 2.88 but mags only 2.83. Even at 2.88 that's a lot of shank down in the case. Also I keep forgetting how far the wsm and saum/rums are....my normal powder funnel wasn't quite wide enough, had to heat it and form it out to get the case in there......
NOW I'm beginning to really appreciate the PRCs, common 7!
View attachment 883289
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This looks wrong as two boys kissin ! :eek:
Thorry ......
 
Thanks guys
I'm not really looking for more power than a 300 Win Mag can provide for that I already have a 375 H&H and Ruger.
but it seems like people disagree about the facts regarding 300 Win Mag versus 300 Winchester short mag.
What would the Winchester short mag do better than a 308?
And what advantages couldn't have over 300 Win Mag?
Also does anybody have direct experience with whether it's worth paying more for a Seiko model 85 then for an A7 or for that matter are they really that much better than a Tikka?
What other brands and models should I be seriously looking at in 300 Win Mag or 300 Winchester short mag?
I had a stainless stalker a bolt that I foolishly sold it had the adjustable muzzle brake on it
And I prefer to get something with a threaded barrel or that I can have the barrel threaded on so I can shoot with an Omega 300 suppressor
 
@Huntolive - if the 308 win were 1st gear, then 300 WSM is 3rd gear, and 300 WM is 4th. In fairness, maybe the 308 is 3rd, then the WSM is 5th, and the WM is 6th, but you get the point. There’s a gap above the 308 before either of the mags, then the belted mag can outrun the WSM. Some factory ammo in the WM might not impress, and different combinations of throat and COAL can influence this a bit, but you can see above some of the particular issues which can happen when trying to fit some of the heavier, higher efficiency bullets into different actions.

Personally, if I were buying a 30 cal magnum in 2020, it would be a 300 PRC. If it were a bench gun, sure, a 300 wsm makes sense, but for anything else, the PRC is really the belle of the ball these days. Proper length, twist, throat, and big case capacity - without some of the issues of availability which plagued the WSM and RUM’s.
 
Typical loads, you can find data for faster loads, but this is pretty typical. Short version: Your 308 is good for any game animal in the lower 48 out to about 400 yards. After that impact speeds start being too slow for reliable expansion. The 30-06 will do the same out to 500-550. The 300 WSM OR 300 WM will do the same out to 600-700 yards.

308/180 2600 fps Recoil 18.7 ft lbs
30-06/180 2800 fps Recoil 22.6 ft lbs
300WSM/180 2950 fps Recoil 26 ft lbs
300WM/180 3000 fps Recoil 31 ft lbs


The 300 WSM will come up about 50 fps slower than 300 WM with the same bullet weights. Down range that translates into slightly more drop, but we're talking an insignificant amount. No game animal will ever notice the difference in impact speeds and the slight difference in drop can easily be accounted for. The 300 WSM has proven to be more accurate at long range. In fact Hornady claims the 300 WSM is the most accurate 30 caliber cartridge they have tested and they now use that cartridge for accuracy testing their 30 caliber bullets.

A 300 WSM will burn 63-64 gr of powder, the 300 WM needs 75-80 gr of powder just to get another 50 fps. That adds up to much more recoil. A 300 WSM falls exactly 1/2 way between 30-06 and 300 WM as to recoil but is only about 1.5% slower.

In your other thread you said you were looking for a do it all cartridge for all North American game out to 600 yards. Any of the 300 magnums will do that, as will the 30-06. But you also said you were trying to avoid an extremely heavy rifle. Thus my recommendation for a lightweight Tikka in 300 WSM instead of 300 WM. The 300WM in rifle that light is going to beat you up pretty bad.

That is what the 300 WSM was designed for. It was never intended to BEAT 300 WM. It was designed to come close to 300 WM performance, but to be used in a much lighter weight mountain rifle without beating up shooters with excessive recoil. It does that job wonderfully. Finding it's niche as a target round was just a happy accident.

You DO NOT want anything in 338 caliber for your stated purposes. The 338's, even the 338 WM looks good on paper and at the muzzle. But you can shoot the same bullet weights in comparable 30 caliber rifles and get BETTER performance on game. The better sectional densities mean deeper penetration with the 30's vs 33's at close range and the long range performance of the 30's is significantly better. A 338 Fed is a step down from the 308 you have.

I was not aware that you already owned a 300 WM when I replied to your other thread. That does change things. But for your stated purposes the 300 WSM does offer real advantages. Whether it is worth adding another cartridge is up to you.

I will say this. I've owned both 300 WM, 300 WSM, and 338/06 in the past. I'm not planning on shooting beyond 400 yards so my 308 does everything I need a rifle to do. And I have 30-06 if I ever feel the need for a little more speed. I sold the others, not because I didn't like them, I just decided I didn't need them. If I were inclined to go back to a 300 it would be the WSM version.
 
js8588 said:
Oh, no disagreement there, but it fits the gun he wants (Sako) hits harder than a 308, is in a shorter action than the Win Mag, & will suppress well (just not with a 30 cal can).
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Gtscotty said:
Probably not going to work that hot with the .30 cal can he wants to use.
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But if we took that .300 wm and necked down .62 mm (or .024") I'd bet it would be a real dandy, or neck an 8mm mag down 1 mm, (but the price of brass!)......... just saying. ...
 
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jmr40 said:
Typical loads, you can find data for faster loads, but this is pretty typical. Short version: Your 308 is good for any game animal in the lower 48 out to about 400 yards. After that impact speeds start being too slow for reliable expansion. The 30-06 will do the same out to 500-550. The 300 WSM OR 300 WM will do the same out to 600-700 yards.

308/180 2600 fps Recoil 18.7 ft lbs
30-06/180 2800 fps Recoil 22.6 ft lbs
300WSM/180 2950 fps Recoil 26 ft lbs
300WM/180 3000 fps Recoil 31 ft lbs


The 300 WSM will come up about 50 fps slower than 300 WM with the same bullet weights. Down range that translates into slightly more drop, but we're talking an insignificant amount. No game animal will ever notice the difference in impact speeds and the slight difference in drop can easily be accounted for. The 300 WSM has proven to be more accurate at long range. In fact Hornady claims the 300 WSM is the most accurate 30 caliber cartridge they have tested and they now use that cartridge for accuracy testing their 30 caliber bullets.

A 300 WSM will burn 63-64 gr of powder, the 300 WM needs 75-80 gr of powder just to get another 50 fps. That adds up to much more recoil. A 300 WSM falls exactly 1/2 way between 30-06 and 300 WM as to recoil but is only about 1.5% slower.

In your other thread you said you were looking for a do it all cartridge for all North American game out to 600 yards. Any of the 300 magnums will do that, as will the 30-06. But you also said you were trying to avoid an extremely heavy rifle. Thus my recommendation for a lightweight Tikka in 300 WSM instead of 300 WM. The 300WM in rifle that light is going to beat you up pretty bad.

That is what the 300 WSM was designed for. It was never intended to BEAT 300 WM. It was designed to come close to 300 WM performance, but to be used in a much lighter weight mountain rifle without beating up shooters with excessive recoil. It does that job wonderfully. Finding it's niche as a target round was just a happy accident.

You DO NOT want anything in 338 caliber for your stated purposes. The 338's, even the 338 WM looks good on paper and at the muzzle. But you can shoot the same bullet weights in comparable 30 caliber rifles and get BETTER performance on game. The better sectional densities mean deeper penetration with the 30's vs 33's at close range and the long range performance of the 30's is significantly better. A 338 Fed is a step down from the 308 you have.

I was not aware that you already owned a 300 WM when I replied to your other thread. That does change things. But for your stated purposes the 300 WSM does offer real advantages. Whether it is worth adding another cartridge is up to you.

I will say this. I've owned both 300 WM, 300 WSM, and 338/06 in the past. I'm not planning on shooting beyond 400 yards so my 308 does everything I need a rifle to do. And I have 30-06 if I ever feel the need for a little more speed. I sold the others, not because I didn't like them, I just decided I didn't need them. If I were inclined to go back to a 300 it would be the WSM version.
Click to expand...
Your comment covered pretty much everything objectively.
The only downside on a wsm case is the sharp shoulder angle means you have to be more careful with die settings.
I would choose one if I felt I needed the added power.
 
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